Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire marksmanship = constant practice, bah, humbug.

Well, sort of. <BR>Today I read in American Rifleman where one of the winners at Camp Perry?? this year fired a grand total of 200 practice rounds all year. Another winner hadn't fired a formal practice round since 1996, when the Army transferred him to recruitment. This year they retransferred and immediately hied him off to the shoots, where he had previously done well. He said he simply fell back on good shooting habits previously learned. Which prompts me to post this, tho I've been thinking about it for several years. I might get my ears knocked down to my boot tops, but let the ear wax fall where it may!<P>I contend that if you can shoot, you can shoot, and extensive practice isn't necessary (not to say it isn't fun, or that it isn't initially advisable until both you and the gun shoot well). Once one reaches a certain level of proficiency, having established good shooting habits and familiarity, knowledge, and confidence in the weapon, firing dozens or hundreds of additional rounds isn't going to greatly improve skill levels, nor will it likely decrease the shooter's basic gun skill if he doesn't practice constantly with that weapon, once learned(I'm talking hunting, not competition or combat, about which I know little).<P>In my own case, with my .338 moose rifle, I feel perfectly comfortable (now) getting it out a week before season, running patches thru the bore, checking the screws, etc., firing one or two check rounds at 100 yards, and if it is still zeroed (it always has been), going hunting with it. I KNOW what it does! And I don't have to think about anything with it, either - not taking the safety off (I don't ever remember doing that) nor acquiring a sight picture, or deciding when to fire, working the bolt, etc. Not infrequently, my sum total of .338 shots fired annually is three: sight-in check round, moose-dropping round, and close-up insurance round. Then I disassemble, clean, reassemble and store it for another year. It once took me 4 years to work my way through a box of factory Federal Safari Partitions, taking 3 moose and two caribou. I still had two rounds left, too, but loaded up another box of (previously established) handloads for the next moose hunt. I didn't get to this pointin less than 2 years, a lot of personal gunsmithing work on the gun, several hundred rounds of ammo determining loads, miles and hours of carrying it, etc. I do shoot several other firearms, including another Ruger 77, from time to time, mostly over the summer, but not a lot. I simply don't feel I need to repeatedly put a bunch of lead down the barrel to create known patterns in known positions on a target day after day, week after week, year after year. I already know all that, so what's the point? And I did manage some pretty fancy off-hand moose shooting this fall, and quite well, thank you very much. (Still, give me a rest!)<BR> I believe what is far more important than just shooting and shooting is initially working with the rifle until it does what one wants (bedding, loads, fit, etc)from a bench, one knows what it, and you, can do under bench and field conditions, and one has total confidence and total familiarity with it. Much of the latter two can be done simply by carrying it, pointing it, dry firing it, assuming field positions with it(quickly and often), and handling it until it becomes a semi-unconscious extension of one's person as soon as it is picked up (I have probably carried it as many miles as I have shot bullets). At this point, blowing lead down the barrel in copius quantities is wasted time and resource unless for recreation - or there's money on the line! Once one becomes a decent field shooter with any rifle, the skill readily transfers to other weapons with a minimum of fuss and bother, and if that gun does what it should, and the hunter is familiar with all the levers and knobs without fumbling or thinking about them, a great deal of shooting practice isn't really necessary. Of course, for those of you who habitually shoot at running game, keep practicing at those rolling tires! <P>Consider the parallels with driving autos, or using cameras, for example. Chuck Yaeger made the same point about airplanes - his only question on a "new" one to him being "How do you start this thing?" Not, of course, that many of us are in his league on anything!<P>What think thee?

I suppose 90% of the hunters every \/\/here do the same thing as you mentioned. I usually shoot several hundred rounds in various firearms, in a season. Most of that is \/\/orking up loads, checking the zero, and for fun. I don't feel comfortable tossing out a fe\/\/ rounds each season, and rather have a box or 2 shot before the day comes. <BR>All one has to do is learn <B>one</B> rifle, and learn all they can about it... ballistics, trajectory, bullet speed, impact speed, foot-pounds, all that techno-stuff, and use it to their benifit. Problem is, most hunters don't do this, instead they thin out their efforts among several, sometimes more, rifles, and never really learn the dang thing. <BR>One thing as important, and seemingly lacking these days as generations go "lecktronik", they don't excersize "\/\/oodsmanship". Just the act of \/\/alking in the trees is not necessarily hunting. One needs to learn marksmanship, and \/\/oodsmanship, and then can they be real hunters. At least, thats ho\/\/ I see it. BY\/\/, I'm al\/\/ays learning this craft, so am open to suggestions, advise, etc. ~~~Suluuq

las, while I'm inclined to agree with you to a point, my money would still go on the guy who does alot of shooting. There are too many variables involved with shooting.<P>I've seen a few guys who can just pick up any rifle and keep them in the 10 ring. Maybe they just have a little more talent then most of us. Maybe they're just lucky. For most of us, it's like a sharp knife. If you want it, work for it.<P>I do alot of practicing. Most of it is with a .22lr through the summer. I do more dry firing with my hi-power rifles, but still try to shoot when I can. Most of the time it pays off in hunting season, although I am reminded now and then that I'm only human. [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] (I missed an easy one this week [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] )<BR>7mm

This just shows the latitude in accuracy for a hunting rifle and that same latitude for the hunter BUT,BUT, do you think the same thing applies to a skater, pool shooter, tennis player, how about a jogger or runner? Ever think about the mussels involved, from the eyes to the feet. Sure anyone can do it again, like riding a bicycle, just not as proficient as the guy that has it in his everyday life. JMHO [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] -- no

Bill Pullum and Franh T. Hanenkrat summed up shooting skill in their book SUCCESSFUL SHOOTING, NRA Press, 1981, by saying that good marksmanship is 90% mental and 10% technique. Once a person figures out the body mechanics and coordination required to put one in the bull the rest is all mental. <P>So I would say that good marksmanship = someone that has 'had' a lot of practice. I feel the same as las in that I can pick up any of my rifles and feel confident of placing a bullet where I want it regardless of how long it has been since I have shot that rifle, or how long it has been since I have shot any rifle. <P>The muscle memory and coordination were learned long ago from firing millions of BBs, 22 shells, and thousands of centerfire rounds.

Well, I'm going to disagree- sort of.<P>While I agree that most good riflemen can pick up a reliable rifle and know where it will shoot each time the trigger is pulled, many people who don't fit into this category can be taught to be as proficient with a little training and some practice.<BR>I've seen many times when guys I know were marginal shots at best- but with a little coaching and lots of practice, the amount of improvement has been nothing short of amazing. On top of that, most of these guys actually start to enjoy shooting, getting out in the woods, and just plain gain more enthusiasm for shooting sports in general.<BR>I tried shooting .22 silhouette for awhile to try to improve my offhand skills. I'm sure if I had time to stick with it, it would have shown substantial improvement, but even as it was with a single season of involvement my offhand shooting improved quite a bit. So, in essence the practice and learned skills have helped my proficiency in one area I was seriously lacking. <BR>Especially in shooting offhand, I believe there is very little substitute for putting rounds downrange. This is one area where your muscles must be trained and exercised to be able to handle the rifle in a particular manner, swing smoothly, and hold a steady point be it on targets or game. At least for some of us, this isn't an automatic skill and we have to work at it. The Poatal matches have proved this over and over- ask anyone who has participated in them, they can be VERY humbling. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<BR> Shooting from a bench, rest, or bipod takes much less inherent skill or practice and can be accomplished by most average riflemen to a degree of proficiency adequate to "hunting accuracy". Just my 2 cents' worth- Sheister

I feel compelled to jump in here. I worked for a couple of years at Double Action Indoor Shooting Center in Madison Heights, MI. Every hunting season, there would be a parade of "hunters" who came in and "practiced" for the upcoming deer season. The marksmanship displayed was pretty dismal. I can't tell you how many guys with $1000 dollars worth of rifle and optics would shoot minute of barn door groups.<BR>There is a lot of merit to the muscle memory theory. Just as any retired professional athlete would far outperform the average guy, anyone who has spent hundreds of rounds learning to shoot well will be a better shot than someone who drags the rifle out a couple of days before heading afield. However, like any fine motor skill, shooting skill deteriorates with time. I try to shoot as much as possible during the year so as to remain sharp for hunting. 7mm Buster is right, shooting is shooting and whether you do it with a .22 lr or a .375, the important thing is to do it. End of sermon [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Fascinating subject, with lots of angles-parts, etc. <BR> In general, I have noticed that once you get "good" with a particular firearm, and do some familarization with it, you'll stay pretty close to that standard. <BR> A case in point would be my summer problems with trap/shotgun shooting. Early on I developed some bad habits, and never really worked them out. I.E., I have never been very good with a shotgun. I bought a brand new, light 12 ga. O/U this last year. When I went to practice with it, my shooting went down hill fast. Bad habits returned, and were made worse because I didn't recognize them. Lots of coaching, and practice, brought me back to about my previous mediocre levels... I still have work to do there. <BR> But handguns are something else. I spent some of my youth carrying one professionally. I shot a lot, back then. I hunted with them occasionally. I have had no trouble, lately, shooting 1.5-2.0 inch groups @ 25 yds. off hand. I can catch my errors. I knoww my guns, etc. <BR> Rifles are still another set of skills. As Jeff Cooper is fond of saying, the rifle's quality is that of reach. But there in lies where real skill comes in. It's one thing to be able to hit something-like a 10 inch pie plate- at 100 yds. Quite another to hit one at 300 yds. And still another to hit one at 500 yds., plus. <BR> I 've got no problem being able to drop to a sit, with my favorite rifle, and hit that target twice, in 15-20 secs. @ 100 yds. No way, at 300 yds. I can, with much more time, and no wind. 500 yds. takes a solid position, exact range information, and a very good wind call. Or I miss by alot. <BR> I do I know all this ? I test myself. I time my practice. And I push the envelope. I check for mistakes, fumbles, etc. It also tests my equipment. <BR> And I really do want to have the floorplate release, for instance, on my .280, give me fits in practice, not while trying to hit Old Blunt Toes. Just one more benefit to practice. E

Let me add a few other items into the mix....age, conditioning and eye-sight. Up until about age 50 I could lay off shooting for awhile and come back with very little reduction in scores (trap, skeet, sporting clays, and general rifle work) maybe one or two points off my competitive scores ...AA and 27-yard trap and AAA skeet...and I had to work a little harder to get those scores....after 50 it I didn't practice for a month I would see a drop of 4 or 5 targets per 100 until I got back in the groove. It seems that when I reached 50 it got tougher and tougher to stay in any kind of "shape" and I began having more frequent changes in my eyes.....bottom line is that after a certain age and I'm sure it varies the sad truth is "use it or lose it".

Having spent two years in Hong Kong, where it is not possible to shoot, I have some recent experience. As background I normally shoot several hundred rounds of 22 per year, several hundred to a thousand pistol rounds and 200 or so high powered rifle rounds per year. Not a lot by some of the guys standards but quite a few. After two years of no practice, I can definitely see a difference in my long range shooting. Anything over 250 yards requires a good rest and time to make sure I do it right. Especially in a hunting situation I find more tension than I used to have when I shot a lot and hunted every year. Nothing like an Elk or deer to get the old heart pounding when you haven't had a chance to go in a few years. <p>Knowing that I am not as smooth or fast as before, I have chosen to hunt in areas that do not offer long shots as a rule. Fortunately, I have plenty of areas to chose from and it has not really been a problem. The real problem is that I move back to Honk Kong next year and it will be August of 03 before I am back in the good ole USA. <p>Finally, I agree with the previous poster who said there was not that much difference with rifles but that pistol skills go down in a hurry. Due to the lack of practice and aging eyes, I simply refused to hunt with a pistol this year. Simply could not hit well enough to feel sure of hitting where I wanted to out to even bow range. <p>In summary, I do not think lack of practice should keep a good shot from hunting but you need to test yourself first and know what you are capable of. You can then limit (or not limit) your shots according to that ability. Of course, that is what all of us should do anyway. TM

I think some thing has been left out of the mix here. If you are a David Tubb or the like,yeah you can win with minimum practice. I think the rest of us had better shoot and practice till the cows come home.

My question: are those shooters who won with minimal/no practice consistently winning championships with no practice? Or are they simply one-time wonders who haven't repeated their performances since?<p>If you'd told me they were three-time winners, with little or no practice, theat'd be a different story. One-timers who haven't repeated that accomplishment (winning the championship with little/no practice)? My money would be on those who practice...alot.<p>Spectacular one-time flashes can be found in any sport..but the really great ones perform year in, year out at the same level. And you can bet the farm they practice and train to keep their skill levels high.<p>I'll still be at the range, touching off ~1000 rds a year. Not that I'll win any championships..I just want to be the best I can be, and have fun doing it.<p>TXLoader

I had a big long post all written out a couple days ago, and then my browser locked.<p>Pertinent points were:<p>1) Bassham, the smallbore champion may very well be the son of the '76 Olympic smallbore gold medalist Lanny Bassham. Lanny Bassham has published videos and books on the mental aspects of winning. <p>2) This is not the first time someone has taken a smallbore championship with very little live fire practice. It was done in the early '90s at a World Cup. I don't recall the gentlemans name, but he took the prone championship relying on dry fire and mental imaging.<p>3) Both these individuals spent years refining their skills (as well as the pistol champion). I'd also be willing to wager that Bassham spent quite a bit of time dry firing this year. I just don't think you are going to win a 3 Position championship without getting into your positions on a regular basis. <p>4) When you are trying to put the vast majority of your shots into a dime sized target at 50 yards, standing and kneeling as well as prone, then shooting a rifle becomes just as difficult as shooting a pistol.<p>5) Why wouldn't you want to shoot as much as you could every year? Shooting is fun! I shoot as much as I can. Thousands of rounds of one sort or an other a year. Rifle and pistol,from plinking to Highpower. All sorts of positions, definitely not just from the bench. I want to start shooting a shotgun real soon too. Except for that super-nasty horrendous .577 T-Rex of Saeed's, I'd probably shoot anything anyone ever handed me. I just have to see you shoot it first.<p>Don't see how little you can shoot, see how much you can shoot!!<p>Scott

I know that for myself that a few rounds down the tube will suffice for about 80% of the time and that I prepare about 20% of effort for that 80%. The remaining 80% effort is for the 20% that requires extra skill and effort to accomplish the task.pak