Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Open sights on client DGR rifle- cosmetic or necessity?

I'm in the process of putting together my Africa Cape buff rifle, for a hunt in 2010. The rifle is a Wby. Euromark I bought from a friend who needed cash. It's a .416 Wby, with 24" bbl. For those not familiar with the Euromark, it is now only offered by the custom shop from Wby, but is wood stocked with a non-shiny oil finish, and matte finish metal work.

I have removed the muzzle brake, and handloaded Barnes TSX 400 gr. bullets to Rigby velocities (2400 fps), which can be shot from this rifle without a brake, and without endangering everyone's hearing. I have also installed a drop magazine, which increases the capacity to 3 + 1. It feeds flawlessly. Accuracy is unbelievable- most 3-shot groups at 50 yards are just ragged single holes.

Scope is a 1.5x5 Leupold VXIII, in Leupold mounts. I have debated installing a barrel band sling swivel mount, but probably will not. My practice off of shooting sticks has so far not resulted in banged knuckles, but I have also not been shooting at buffalo.

This rifle does not have open sights.

My question is this- how many of you, on a buffalo hunt, as a client, had occasion to remove your scope and use open sights?
Once? Ever? Ever know anyone who did?

I have a backup scope, 1.5x5, in rings, to take along, in case of a scope failure. My outfitter seemed to be much more concerned about the muzzle brake issue than anything else, rifle wise.

Thoughts?

It seems to me that you have answered your own question.

I'd skip the Open sights, go forth and kill Buff.

BMT

Very few situations cannot be handled by a low X scope like the one you have. You are well equipped so long as you have loaded good quality bullets and are practiced up when you go. Even at close range a low X scope beats an open sight. Only at bayonet ranges on a fast incoming do the open sights have any merit over a scope. If you do your part as it should be done this scenario will not play out for you. Have a great trip!

PS you might consider carrying BOTH scopes, wrapped up in soft stuff, in your carry - on. I have done this for many trips and it has worked well for me. Great idea on the spare identical scope zeroed and ready to go.

Yep, sounds like you are GTG...
And good on 'ya for leaving the muzzle brake at home..

Ingwe

It sounds like you've got your question answered. However, I would always start this kind of query with a question about how well I liked to shoot with irons. Many people aren't familiar enough with irons for them to be any more useful than simply pointing a "bald" rifle. In fact, if there was a concern that a scope might need removal for very close quarters, you might consider some practice sans sights altogether. Bear in mind that I can't say if that has any practical meaning in Africa; I'm interpolating that idea.

In my experience Klik is exactly right. Most people aren't familiar enough with irons to make good use of them, so would be better off with a low-power scope.

Also, as he hints, the really quick use of iron sights at close range doesn't really involve the sights so much as a rifle that actually fits, very much like a shotgun. I can hit a softball-sized rock every time out to 30 yards without even looking much at the iron sights on my dangerous-game rifles, because the rifles stocks have been modified to fit like a shotguns.

I've killed buffalo with scoped rifles and iron sighted doubles. I have no doubt that the scoped rifle makes life easier in placing the first shot. As for the arguement of tracking buffalo in the thick bush needing open sights, iIstill have found the scope rifle superior. There have been many times when tracking the old bachelor bulls in the bush that a scope is useful to peer ahead in the shadows at the dark lump that suddenly rises from his siesta and rambles off after spotting you.

IMO, the only hunting where open sights are better than a scope is elephant hunting.

On the other hand, I would want open sights or, better, an apperature like the Talley for any dangerous game rifle, and I would want to take that scope off should the need to follow in the thick stuff arise.

I hunt buff with an open sighted double rifle because to me it is more fun. But I don't delude myself into thinking that an open sighted rifle is as good a tool for buff hunting as one with a low power scope.

JPK

I've hunted buff 3X so I'm not expert by any means, but on the 2X I've followed up buff, I've not removed my scope - just left it set it to 1.5X each time and it's been great.

Good hunting.

I suppose if your of a generation that didn't grow up using iron sights then the scope might be the way to go, but I recommend that and DGR have irons for a number of reasons, such as scope failure in the field, inclement weather, and even to have an option for follow ups...

I personally would not own a gun without iron sights and I NEVER want to go into the bush after a wounded cape buffalo with a scope on my rifle. Normally I hunt buff with iron sights, and my tracker carries my scope in case of a long shot, or in case we run into a record book Kudu or whatever out at 300 or so yards, at least I have the option....

A buff is a big target and his vitals are large. I can hit him at 200 or more yards with irons and the last thing on this earth I want is a scope when a buff gets the jump on me at 5 or 10 yards or when a mama Lion comes flying out of the tall grass intent on changing my appeareance, and that has happened to me and think goodness I didn't have a scope on my rifle. and its happened to many a PH and that is why they have iron sighted rifles....

To each his own, but that is something that each of us must decide for ourselves and I suspect experience, sooner or later might change a lot of minds about the exclusive use of scopes. I think too many have gone and shot a couple of buffalo with scope sighted rifles and it worked as it usually does so they have come to hasty conclusions that I disagree with, its when things go South that the story changes and those 100% dependable iron sights are akin to a heavenly angle..:)

Your building a nice rifle, you may as well have iron sights installed on it, it sure can't hurt at thing..As to the barrel band swivel, I wouldn't be concerned about banged up knuckles, but a barrel band swivel does lower the rifle on your shoulder considerably, and in the thick stuff that is a plus and inasmuch as you never use a shooting sling with a big bore anyway why not take advantage of haveing a proper African rifle! ..

I would go with what has worked for decades with the Africans and when in Rome do as the Romans do and that includes barrel band swivel and iron sights! My opine only, what you do is up to you of course.

I have not hunted for African dangerous game. But I did for wild cattle here in Patagonia. And I can say these are truly dangerous in the bushes!! And many times, mostly bulls, run for you when they think you are in their territory.
I also have all my rifles with iron sights. May be I learned to shoot with iron sights...Bur any rifle for hunting should have it. And also I am a believer in carring buck up scopes when go hunting. Just in case...My point of view.

PH

My .458 has iron sights plus a Leupold 1.5-5 scope in Talley QD mounts. The scope has the extra wide duplex reticle. I have never detached the scope even though I have followed up one each wounded buffalo and elephant. Nor have I ever hunted DG with the scope set at any magnification but 1.5.

I believe that I can get on target faster with this scope than with iron sights. The secret is (a) keep both eyes open and (b) make sure the rifle fits, so that you are immediately on target when bringing the rifle to your shoulder. this way you look at the game, not at the rifle or scope.

So for me the iron sights are nothing but a backup in case the scope breaks. It hasn't. Weather? It never rains during the times I hunt in Africa.

One disadvantage with iron sights: With your scope set at 1.5, you can see the front sight as a fuzzy blob in the bottom of the scope sight picture. This can bother some people. I ignore it.

This post made me think enough that I pulled out my 458 Lott and tried the irons in dry firing practice. I've changed the issue FS on this Ruger to the NECG white bead and that has made a big difference in quick acquisition. I agree with JB that fit of the stock makes a much bigger difference in speed with iron sight than in scope use.

I have a Leupold 1.5-5x Ruger ring QD set up for this rifle also but have come to use it more with irons in practice than I used to. Can't say that I'm to the point yet of relying on the irons as my primary sights for DG up close, but planning to get there with enough practice.

The best thing you can do to improve your iron sight shooting is to buy a 22lr with sights not too unlike your 458's open sights. For me, a Win M9422 is close enough to the sights on my double or 375H&H to suffice.

Lots of cheap and recoil free practice at any range, indoor or out, including "pistol" ranges. Ever tried 100 458's in a day? Even loaded way down, the cost will still get you.

JPK

Didn't one of the African PH schools run some pretty extensive tests of speed, accuracy, etc. of low power scopes sights and the scopes came out ahead?

I have killed exactly one DG animal, a bull elephant and I would not have killed it if I had not had a scope on my Searcy double rifle. The scope was a S&B 1.1x4 flashdot and it was set on 1.1 and had the reddot on. I wounded the elephant and followed it up and killed it. The rising sun was full in our faces and the elephant's head was all but obscured by the glare, but I could see the reddot and a silhouette of the elephant's head. My PH said that he couldn't see his sights.

Don't get me wrong, I love iron sights and shoot them all the time. I like the way a sleek rifle handles when the stock is built for iron sights. It seems that type "B" mausers are just about a perfect fit for me.

However, I don't kid myself that with an equally perfectly fitted stock and appropriate scope choice that the scope is a superior device.

josh

What some don't seem to understand is that at very close range, it's not iron sights vs. the scope, its the pointability issue of that really close encounter where a fast quick point shot is all your gonna get before your tossed or et, that is when you definately want a clean receiver, not cluttered with a scope, you just point and shoot and hope you hit the brain..This is also the beauty of a double rifle, but at that point one shot is all your gonna get.

I have seen a few studies, test, whatever, in folks back yards and written up in magazines wherein the scope won, but they sure were designed to make a point for the scope.

I recall such a instance with a well known, now deceased, African PH gun scribe and author and very close friend, wherein he challenged me to such a shoot off, I beat the sox off him, so he said I cheated because I shot instinctively and that proved nothing for iron sights! well duh! so what, it worked and I cannot shoot instinctively with a scoped rifle, but I can aim and not shoot instinctively with irons beyond my instinctive ability or about 25 yards, beyond 25 I aim...

I defy you to shoot faster or straighter than the hunter who can just "point" his rifle and hit a 3 inch black a 25 yards consistently..This is how I practice with irons,except at that range I don't use the irons. I point and shoot at 25 yds and I strive for both bullets touching..It is not as hard as it sounds. I would suggest you try it a few times, then when you get pretty good at it, try it with your scoped rifle.

For those who insist on a scope, then your mind is made up,and the scope is the only way your going to go anyway, so it's probably best for you..

I would not go into the bush with a scoped rifle, those bulls can jump you at point blank range..I saw a tape the other day wherein my good friend Johan Calitz stopped a bull that came out of nowhere at about 10 yards. he pointed and shot and fell backwards kicking at the bulls head, he killed it with that point shot with his Searcy double and it slide to his lap...

I agree, Ray, and said pretty much the same thing in my post, though not with your detail.

The big problem with most hunters, however, is that they won't do the same kind of practice. However, most shotgunners (especially ruffed grouse hunters) take to it pretty easily.

I will also note that a few years ago I won a timed target-shooting event on Cape buffalo targets with an iron-sighted rifle, with 3 hits in the fastest time--and almost all the otgher shooters used scopes.

I know diddly about hunting Africa.

I do know, with buckhorns it is easy to shoot high under stress. If I were setting up a rifle for irons (I have a couple set up that way), it's a ghost ring rear and fiber optic front, all the way. That works much better- for me.

(I shot buckhorns my whole childhood, so it was an unpleasant surprise for me to find out that push come to shove, I wasn't as good at getting that post into that notch as I thought I was, under stress...)

You don't need open sights UNTIL the buffalo runs away with a hole in him and then you do....... When he comes for you out of nowhere, you REALLY need 'em.

Consider the cost of an African safari compared to the cost of a set of open sights and it's a no brainer....... just go and have a set fitted.

I'd highly recommend the red fibre optic foresight on the business end. They're a little fragile but work an absolute treat in the thick stuff.

Jeffo,
I agree the buckhorn is for young eyes and never was much of a good iron sight anyway...I would opt for the shallow V and a 3/32 ivory bead or one of the green or red optic front sights that Steve (Shakari) suggests..

Also my grandfather showed me an old Texas Ranger trick..They filed a deep shallow V in the rear sight and squared up the front blade to a post configuration..then they took a very course sight picture with the post at the top of the V, much the same as you have on a S&W pistols target sights except you have a V as opposed to a square rear sight slot...They sighted them in by filing the top of the rear sight or the top of post.

this set up is as fast as any receiver or peep sight and every bit as accurate, I still have his 94 SRC set up like that and I shoot it better than any iron sighted rifle I own, and I have won a truck load of turkeys and hams with it, made money leasing it out at shoots! and won about every running lion and buffalo shoot I have been in if they allowed me to use it, which they don't very often requiring a 375 or larger....try it, you will like it, especially as you age and your eyes wear out...

I don't wonder that the Mexican bandits referred to them as "los renches diablos" ( the devil rangers.. They were the best of marksmen, and they could shoot fast. at 90 years old he was a fantastic shot with that rifle and a colt pistol..He used to take it away from me and shoot at my target, a prickley pare at about a 100 yards..Then look at me and say "like that, son" everytime..I still can't do that every time.