I'm in the process of putting together my Africa Cape buff rifle, for a hunt in 2010. The rifle is a Wby. Euromark I bought from a friend who needed cash. It's a .416 Wby, with 24" bbl. For those not familiar with the Euromark, it is now only offered by the custom shop from Wby, but is wood stocked with a non-shiny oil finish, and matte finish metal work.

I have removed the muzzle brake, and handloaded Barnes TSX 400 gr. bullets to Rigby velocities (2400 fps), which can be shot from this rifle without a brake, and without endangering everyone's hearing. I have also installed a drop magazine, which increases the capacity to 3 + 1. It feeds flawlessly. Accuracy is unbelievable- most 3-shot groups at 50 yards are just ragged single holes.

Scope is a 1.5x5 Leupold VXIII, in Leupold mounts. I have debated installing a barrel band sling swivel mount, but probably will not. My practice off of shooting sticks has so far not resulted in banged knuckles, but I have also not been shooting at buffalo.

This rifle does not have open sights.

My question is this- how many of you, on a buffalo hunt, as a client, had occasion to remove your scope and use open sights?
Once? Ever? Ever know anyone who did?

I have a backup scope, 1.5x5, in rings, to take along, in case of a scope failure. My outfitter seemed to be much more concerned about the muzzle brake issue than anything else, rifle wise.

Thoughts?

It seems to me that you have answered your own question.

I'd skip the Open sights, go forth and kill Buff.

BMT

Very few situations cannot be handled by a low X scope like the one you have. You are well equipped so long as you have loaded good quality bullets and are practiced up when you go. Even at close range a low X scope beats an open sight. Only at bayonet ranges on a fast incoming do the open sights have any merit over a scope. If you do your part as it should be done this scenario will not play out for you. Have a great trip!

PS you might consider carrying BOTH scopes, wrapped up in soft stuff, in your carry - on. I have done this for many trips and it has worked well for me. Great idea on the spare identical scope zeroed and ready to go.

Yep, sounds like you are GTG...
And good on 'ya for leaving the muzzle brake at home..

Ingwe

It sounds like you've got your question answered. However, I would always start this kind of query with a question about how well I liked to shoot with irons. Many people aren't familiar enough with irons for them to be any more useful than simply pointing a "bald" rifle. In fact, if there was a concern that a scope might need removal for very close quarters, you might consider some practice sans sights altogether. Bear in mind that I can't say if that has any practical meaning in Africa; I'm interpolating that idea.

In my experience Klik is exactly right. Most people aren't familiar enough with irons to make good use of them, so would be better off with a low-power scope.

Also, as he hints, the really quick use of iron sights at close range doesn't really involve the sights so much as a rifle that actually fits, very much like a shotgun. I can hit a softball-sized rock every time out to 30 yards without even looking much at the iron sights on my dangerous-game rifles, because the rifles stocks have been modified to fit like a shotguns.

I've killed buffalo with scoped rifles and iron sighted doubles. I have no doubt that the scoped rifle makes life easier in placing the first shot. As for the arguement of tracking buffalo in the thick bush needing open sights, iIstill have found the scope rifle superior. There have been many times when tracking the old bachelor bulls in the bush that a scope is useful to peer ahead in the shadows at the dark lump that suddenly rises from his siesta and rambles off after spotting you.

IMO, the only hunting where open sights are better than a scope is elephant hunting.

On the other hand, I would want open sights or, better, an apperature like the Talley for any dangerous game rifle, and I would want to take that scope off should the need to follow in the thick stuff arise.

I hunt buff with an open sighted double rifle because to me it is more fun. But I don't delude myself into thinking that an open sighted rifle is as good a tool for buff hunting as one with a low power scope.

JPK

I've hunted buff 3X so I'm not expert by any means, but on the 2X I've followed up buff, I've not removed my scope - just left it set it to 1.5X each time and it's been great.

Good hunting.

I suppose if your of a generation that didn't grow up using iron sights then the scope might be the way to go, but I recommend that and DGR have irons for a number of reasons, such as scope failure in the field, inclement weather, and even to have an option for follow ups...

I personally would not own a gun without iron sights and I NEVER want to go into the bush after a wounded cape buffalo with a scope on my rifle. Normally I hunt buff with iron sights, and my tracker carries my scope in case of a long shot, or in case we run into a record book Kudu or whatever out at 300 or so yards, at least I have the option....

A buff is a big target and his vitals are large. I can hit him at 200 or more yards with irons and the last thing on this earth I want is a scope when a buff gets the jump on me at 5 or 10 yards or when a mama Lion comes flying out of the tall grass intent on changing my appeareance, and that has happened to me and think goodness I didn't have a scope on my rifle. and its happened to many a PH and that is why they have iron sighted rifles....

To each his own, but that is something that each of us must decide for ourselves and I suspect experience, sooner or later might change a lot of minds about the exclusive use of scopes. I think too many have gone and shot a couple of buffalo with scope sighted rifles and it worked as it usually does so they have come to hasty conclusions that I disagree with, its when things go South that the story changes and those 100% dependable iron sights are akin to a heavenly angle..:)

Your building a nice rifle, you may as well have iron sights installed on it, it sure can't hurt at thing..As to the barrel band swivel, I wouldn't be concerned about banged up knuckles, but a barrel band swivel does lower the rifle on your shoulder considerably, and in the thick stuff that is a plus and inasmuch as you never use a shooting sling with a big bore anyway why not take advantage of haveing a proper African rifle! ..

I would go with what has worked for decades with the Africans and when in Rome do as the Romans do and that includes barrel band swivel and iron sights! My opine only, what you do is up to you of course.

I have not hunted for African dangerous game. But I did for wild cattle here in Patagonia. And I can say these are truly dangerous in the bushes!! And many times, mostly bulls, run for you when they think you are in their territory.
I also have all my rifles with iron sights. May be I learned to shoot with iron sights...Bur any rifle for hunting should have it. And also I am a believer in carring buck up scopes when go hunting. Just in case...My point of view.

PH

My .458 has iron sights plus a Leupold 1.5-5 scope in Talley QD mounts. The scope has the extra wide duplex reticle. I have never detached the scope even though I have followed up one each wounded buffalo and elephant. Nor have I ever hunted DG with the scope set at any magnification but 1.5.

I believe that I can get on target faster with this scope than with iron sights. The secret is (a) keep both eyes open and (b) make sure the rifle fits, so that you are immediately on target when bringing the rifle to your shoulder. this way you look at the game, not at the rifle or scope.

So for me the iron sights are nothing but a backup in case the scope breaks. It hasn't. Weather? It never rains during the times I hunt in Africa.

One disadvantage with iron sights: With your scope set at 1.5, you can see the front sight as a fuzzy blob in the bottom of the scope sight picture. This can bother some people. I ignore it.

This post made me think enough that I pulled out my 458 Lott and tried the irons in dry firing practice. I've changed the issue FS on this Ruger to the NECG white bead and that has made a big difference in quick acquisition. I agree with JB that fit of the stock makes a much bigger difference in speed with iron sight than in scope use.

I have a Leupold 1.5-5x Ruger ring QD set up for this rifle also but have come to use it more with irons in practice than I used to. Can't say that I'm to the point yet of relying on the irons as my primary sights for DG up close, but planning to get there with enough practice.

The best thing you can do to improve your iron sight shooting is to buy a 22lr with sights not too unlike your 458's open sights. For me, a Win M9422 is close enough to the sights on my double or 375H&H to suffice.

Lots of cheap and recoil free practice at any range, indoor or out, including "pistol" ranges. Ever tried 100 458's in a day? Even loaded way down, the cost will still get you.

JPK

Didn't one of the African PH schools run some pretty extensive tests of speed, accuracy, etc. of low power scopes sights and the scopes came out ahead?

I have killed exactly one DG animal, a bull elephant and I would not have killed it if I had not had a scope on my Searcy double rifle. The scope was a S&B 1.1x4 flashdot and it was set on 1.1 and had the reddot on. I wounded the elephant and followed it up and killed it. The rising sun was full in our faces and the elephant's head was all but obscured by the glare, but I could see the reddot and a silhouette of the elephant's head. My PH said that he couldn't see his sights.

Don't get me wrong, I love iron sights and shoot them all the time. I like the way a sleek rifle handles when the stock is built for iron sights. It seems that type "B" mausers are just about a perfect fit for me.

However, I don't kid myself that with an equally perfectly fitted stock and appropriate scope choice that the scope is a superior device.

josh

What some don't seem to understand is that at very close range, it's not iron sights vs. the scope, its the pointability issue of that really close encounter where a fast quick point shot is all your gonna get before your tossed or et, that is when you definately want a clean receiver, not cluttered with a scope, you just point and shoot and hope you hit the brain..This is also the beauty of a double rifle, but at that point one shot is all your gonna get.

I have seen a few studies, test, whatever, in folks back yards and written up in magazines wherein the scope won, but they sure were designed to make a point for the scope.

I recall such a instance with a well known, now deceased, African PH gun scribe and author and very close friend, wherein he challenged me to such a shoot off, I beat the sox off him, so he said I cheated because I shot instinctively and that proved nothing for iron sights! well duh! so what, it worked and I cannot shoot instinctively with a scoped rifle, but I can aim and not shoot instinctively with irons beyond my instinctive ability or about 25 yards, beyond 25 I aim...

I defy you to shoot faster or straighter than the hunter who can just "point" his rifle and hit a 3 inch black a 25 yards consistently..This is how I practice with irons,except at that range I don't use the irons. I point and shoot at 25 yds and I strive for both bullets touching..It is not as hard as it sounds. I would suggest you try it a few times, then when you get pretty good at it, try it with your scoped rifle.

For those who insist on a scope, then your mind is made up,and the scope is the only way your going to go anyway, so it's probably best for you..

I would not go into the bush with a scoped rifle, those bulls can jump you at point blank range..I saw a tape the other day wherein my good friend Johan Calitz stopped a bull that came out of nowhere at about 10 yards. he pointed and shot and fell backwards kicking at the bulls head, he killed it with that point shot with his Searcy double and it slide to his lap...

I agree, Ray, and said pretty much the same thing in my post, though not with your detail.

The big problem with most hunters, however, is that they won't do the same kind of practice. However, most shotgunners (especially ruffed grouse hunters) take to it pretty easily.

I will also note that a few years ago I won a timed target-shooting event on Cape buffalo targets with an iron-sighted rifle, with 3 hits in the fastest time--and almost all the otgher shooters used scopes.

I know diddly about hunting Africa.

I do know, with buckhorns it is easy to shoot high under stress. If I were setting up a rifle for irons (I have a couple set up that way), it's a ghost ring rear and fiber optic front, all the way. That works much better- for me.

(I shot buckhorns my whole childhood, so it was an unpleasant surprise for me to find out that push come to shove, I wasn't as good at getting that post into that notch as I thought I was, under stress...)

You don't need open sights UNTIL the buffalo runs away with a hole in him and then you do....... When he comes for you out of nowhere, you REALLY need 'em.

Consider the cost of an African safari compared to the cost of a set of open sights and it's a no brainer....... just go and have a set fitted.

I'd highly recommend the red fibre optic foresight on the business end. They're a little fragile but work an absolute treat in the thick stuff.

Jeffo,
I agree the buckhorn is for young eyes and never was much of a good iron sight anyway...I would opt for the shallow V and a 3/32 ivory bead or one of the green or red optic front sights that Steve (Shakari) suggests..

Also my grandfather showed me an old Texas Ranger trick..They filed a deep shallow V in the rear sight and squared up the front blade to a post configuration..then they took a very course sight picture with the post at the top of the V, much the same as you have on a S&W pistols target sights except you have a V as opposed to a square rear sight slot...They sighted them in by filing the top of the rear sight or the top of post.

this set up is as fast as any receiver or peep sight and every bit as accurate, I still have his 94 SRC set up like that and I shoot it better than any iron sighted rifle I own, and I have won a truck load of turkeys and hams with it, made money leasing it out at shoots! and won about every running lion and buffalo shoot I have been in if they allowed me to use it, which they don't very often requiring a 375 or larger....try it, you will like it, especially as you age and your eyes wear out...

I don't wonder that the Mexican bandits referred to them as "los renches diablos" ( the devil rangers.. They were the best of marksmen, and they could shoot fast. at 90 years old he was a fantastic shot with that rifle and a colt pistol..He used to take it away from me and shoot at my target, a prickley pare at about a 100 yards..Then look at me and say "like that, son" everytime..I still can't do that every time.

Ray, the shallow V is the shape on the Ruger 375 Hawkeyes which makes them pretty fast. The 458 Lott Ruger needs a new front to work the same way but the rear is GTG from the factory.

Agree with Shakari on the fiberoptic sight's visibility, but in the world their fairly fragile. As long as it isn't broken at the wrong time and you're willing to replace it periodically - or protect it with a hood with side and top window cut-outs like the NECG - they're a pretty good idea.

They don't work if you put a hood on 'em as they gather the light and shine it back at you........ I keep a spare in that little spidertrap in the stock for emergencies and find that even with the rough treatment my rifle gets, I only have to change it about once every 2 or 3 years.

FWIW, when I'm doing a night time follow up, I tape a small surefire to the side of the barrel where I can flick the button with my thumb and also wear a headlamp that shines a bit of light onto the foresight with most of the light from that shining where I'm looking and it works a treat for me.

Also, FWIW, I also give my tracker my Surefire (blue light) Kroma which although helluva expensive, is worth it's weight in gold in these situations.

I don't use or favor hoods on FS either, but installed the one I described on my 1886 450 Alaskan, because I'd seen the fiberoptic FS on a friend's Win Mod. 71 break in the bush. The window cut outs on the side and top of the hood do let in a lot of light. But I'm not trying to stir up controversy about a peripheral issue and recognize that YMMV.

In the spirit of when in Rome: I drilled and tapped and screwed down the two long distance folding leafs on my CZ 550 Magnum .416 Rigby, just like the African pros recommend.

I did a very clever thing when I bought my DG rifle, I bought two. An option the low cost of the CZ made possible. I did give one to my most generous hunting partner, Andy Barnes of Burns, OR. But, unless he is going with me, I know I can use both rifles, and his we only shoot with the irons.

Now - can anyone tell me where I can find a Quick Detachable scope ring that fits the CZ's scope grooves?

Sisky,

Warne makes their Maxima QD "Grooved Receiver Line" amongst other rifle types for the CZ.

http://www.warnescopemounts.com/grooved_receiver_line.html

Good stuff.

My flip up leaves are stiff to move so I don't D&T them down..

Also,I do sight each one of them in at specific yardage and I use them as such..I have them sighted in at 100, 200 and 300, if I have a 4th option I sight them in a 50,100,200,and 300..This works much better for me. Not many folks do this anymore, prefering to sight the rifle in x inches high at 100 and just use the one sight. I did that for years, but I prefer to have each sight sighted in at a specific range today..Both methods work, but I think eveyone owes it to themselves to try both methods before they make a decision.

Ray and all, I appreciate the nostalgia associated with iron/express sights. I really like them, too. But swing them like a shotgun and not really see the sights? I want iron sights and not optics if a wounded animal if it goes into a dark hole?

Did you guys tell this to the marines? I have a young, former marine working for me that did a couple of tours recently and hunted "dangers game" in some very dark holes. Optics rule on those hunts. Iron sights were considered to be a huge handicap. He's a good kid that came out "stacked" and wounded.

Also don't tell the marines that their push feeds are inferior to CRF's.

Anyway, fun dicussion.

josh

Recknegel makes and NECG sells a hood for fibre optic front sights which is a frame with large wholes or windows in it to allow in the light nessecary for the fibre optic front beads.

Best of both worlds, protection and light. Same hood works well for a properly filed front brass or platinum bead as well.

Sharpsshooter,

Irons are best for eles and for other really close encounters. If your rifle fits, you will see the front bead when you mount the rifle. Put the bead where you want the bullet to go. Very simple, very fast - but your rifle must fit.

When was the last time an M-16 was fit to the shooter, eh?

JPK

Thank you for the info on the Warne Rings - they were not available the first time I bought rings for the CZ.

The Warne QDs work quite well. I just did some re0shuffling of scopes today, including mounting a 1-4x on Warne QDs on a CZ 550 FS 9.3x62. A nice compact combo.

That's very interesting Ray. LAPD found that the biggest factor in winning a gun fight is to raise the pistol to eye level, ignore the rear sight, and focus on the front sight only. Even at ranges measured in feet. Sounds alot like what you are saying.
I'm going to try practicing shooting quickly at 25 yds. as well as 50 yds. like I do now with my rifles. Especially my iron sighted ones.
One of my choices for a close cover elk rifle is a very large white bead front sight that can be replaced if it gets broken. Got the idea from the .375 Rugers I've played with and from recalling Francis E Sell's experiences with his iron sighted lever guns in his dark Oregon forests.
I'm opting for a ghost ring rear sight. But I will keep my options open. My eyes aren't opposed to a good wide "V" out there on the barrel. We'll see.
I'm also going to look for an oportunity to play with a wide "V" rear and prominent front sight combination as well. who knows where I'll wind up.
Thanks for your's and everybody else's comments. E

Iccidentally I have altered the rear sight on my 9mm Pistol this way:



Drill from holster, target at 15 feet:

double tap center mass and monitor (Mozambique) one shot, carefully aimed.

Rapid aquisition for the double tap - the rear sight is ignored (washes out) completely. For the third it can be used for more precise indexing.

Shot out to 25 meters - as precise as I can hold.
Shot out fast in close in bad light - just front sight surprise.

Works.

the sight I described used by the Texas Rangers is very much what CMG has posted other than its not flat on the bottom..it is as fast as any sightt can possibly be..I have that old gun of my granddads for years and it is awesome.

I think you guys that are interested will find that instinctive or simi instinctive shooting is easier than some of you might think and is very accurate for most folks, it does require a little practice to get really good at it and some to stay good at it..At one time I could bust going away clays with a fair amount of regularity with my double 450-400. I guess about 3 out of 5 or better on a good day, and those I missed were very close I would bet. I think its saved my bacon a couple of times.

I've seen alot of guys that couldn't hit 3 out of 5 going away clays with a shotgun. That you could do it with a rifle is impressive!

doubletap,
Practice, practice, practice, I can't do it today or the last time I tried I couldn't, I don't practice these days like I used to..but I could probably get one out of 5 still..I think I will go try and see how I do...It is best to start on a 25 yard target and get that down pat, they go to the clays and its a lot easier..

I have the white, hooded NECG on my new .458 and am going to install a ghost ring at the rear.

I have removed a 1.5 Leupy on my Mod 70 on a follow up, but I cut my teeth on irons and practiced extensively with the .375's irons at 25 yds before I went on the hunt. I am certain that I will be quicker up close with irons, because I have field loss due to no vision in my right eye and the scope blocks a lot of the remaining field, even though it's a skinny Leupold 1.5-5. Irons up close for me, no doubt.

I haven`t been to Africa yet, so I`m no expert. But I have seen alot of caped buff hunts on TV and article pics. Most of the rifles that I see used for caped buffs have scopes on them.

Also, any shots imo, say beyond 50-60 yards, you`d want a scope for the best possible and very important 1st shot placement.

I also notice the trackers carrying back up rifles without scopes just in case of a charging emergency. So on any guided hunt, there is usually plenty of back up.

I`d put a scope on your 416, periodically do some quick target acquisition freehand practicing, and have a good time in Africa.

If one is more comfortable with a scope then I agree with bigsqueeze that your scoped rifle will work 95% of the time, but IF one goes into the high grass or the really thick mopane then you are 110% better of with irons if you can shoot them..In the high grass what you may see is a head five feet off your gun barrel blowing blood all over hell..one needs to be very quick and very accurate. I have only seen this on one show on TV as Bigsqueeze refers to and that was with Johan Calitz and he got knocked on his butt...I also have been pushed around a bit, so I am sot in my ways on this subject and others when it comes to my survival!! and all the back up in the world may or may not work in these up close situations...

The important thing is to have the iron sights on the gun then if you ever need them they are there, why in the hell would one do otherwise is beyond me, they don't cost that much....oh yeah, and take the time to sight them in at 50 yards.

I realize that scope bases can interfere with your iron sights in some cases but any good gunsmith can remedy this situation..I took and end mill and cut a lengthwise grove through my Talleys, and then you have Talbott QDs, Griffen and Howe side mounts and the great claw mounts..The options are out there if you want to spend the money and if your on a $20,000 to $100,000, a set of even expensive scope mounts should not be a problem..

You also have the options of slipping on a Talley peep sight on the rear scope base and they work great at $65.00..carry it in your cartridge belt, its fast and accurate.

I've not done dangersous game, but have a 2.5 X scout scope on my dark timber 45-70 elk.moose unit. I too see no issues with scopes with that level of magnification. They are close enough to what we typically see that the off side eye is still able to track and deliver info on the surroundings well out of the scopes field of view. In the grass and at ranges inside of 25 yards, I'd likely not bother with sight pictures anyway, and be shooting mostly on instinct. That's where a lot practice with pointing exercises would come into play. I think you're good to go.

Try this: Mount your rifle (empty of course) and point it at a painting, photo, tv mounted on a wall at eye level of higher (as one would when attempting to shoot an elephant), keep both eyes open. Then note how large the area is that is obscured by the scope. For a righty, the area ia ahead and to the right of the scope. The area is triangle in shape and grows as distance increases.

At five or ten yards it is more than large enough to hide an elephant. A short eye relief scope makes a larger blind spot than a long eye relief scope, both both are too large.

As far as elephants and visibility, you will be shocked, when you go to Africa, at how well elephants blend into even thin jess that all leaves have fallen from, let alone how hard they are to see in heavy still-in-leaf cover.

And with elephants, a lot of trouble doesn't come from the one you see, but its unseen mate.

And Ray is 100% right regarding counting on backup. Whoever that backup may be, he may or may not have the opportunity to save your bacon, and if he does, he may not be up to the task, oe maybe is just having an off day when he misses and you become strawbeery jam as an elephant gores you and then crushes you, or a shadow of yourself as a buff hooks and disembowels you or a chew toy for leo or chiue.

JPK

I don't know if I should ask here or start my own thread, but anyone have thoughts on regulating irons for 410s from my 416 and sighting a scope on QD Tally's in for 300s?

I haven't tried it yet but I'm betting that a Swarovski Z6 with 4.7 inches of eye relief and the long stock on the CZ550 will keep it out of my face.

I reiterate that the iron sight are a step down from an appropriate set of optics. Now those optics may need to be a reddot or a scope/reddot combo. No matter how magically your rifle fits you with iron sights, the best of the reddot optics are still faster.

The super-high speed handgunners will tell you they still get a sight picture no matter how fast they shoot. And if reddots are permitted in the sport they are used by all because of their superiority.

The guys busting doors in Irag and Afghan. are all using optics.

No matter how much we all love the express sights, we just must face the truth that the optics are faster.

I might even be interested in a little speed test of iron sights versus appropriate optics over a diverse set of shooting situations. Of course we shoot like men for pink slips.

Any thoughts on shooting events to sort this question out once and for all?

ss

Ryan,
That is not a problem at all and do it all the time, but you might get some flack for not using the same ammo in your gun as you could fesibley have the wrong ammo in the gun with the wrong sight..I dunno..

My 416 Rem is presently sighted in 1 inch high at 50 yards, and it is also 1 inch high at 100 BTW. This is with irons and the 450 gr. Woodleighs. My 3X Leupold in Talleys is sighted in 1 inch high at 50 and 100 yards also but with 400 gr. North Fork softs and cup points..Fortunately all this stuff shoots to the same POI in my gun, so its not a problem and works out well.

sharpshooter,
I would love to oblidge you, but probably never happen in that we live a world apart, and time and money don't make it even a consideration..I would suggest that you compete against yourself as that is all that counts in the high grass..As to what the boys do in Iraq, I doubt is applicable to a hunting situation,as we don't have the full auto lever, and if the batteries go dead in Iraq, you can flip the switch.:)

Hi Josh

I agree with you. I do think the client that very seldom experience a charge should have a low power scope. Yours worked like a charm, and my personal favourite (if ever I can afford it , I will build another rifle especially for this scope), is the 1-6x42 Swarovski, with the illuminated reticle. However, the PH should carry open sights, it is faster, and works much better on charges (for me anyway.)

Just as you guys were going to the airport after your tour of our beautiful country (if I may say so myself), you might remember that I had a leopard charge. Now on this charge a few things went wrong. First, the cat did not want to bay with dogs. We had to get too close to try and get a shot at it before it injured the dogs too much. Second, that morning Gottfried (my driver) picked up my 9,3x64 instead of my .450 Rigby, which I am more used to and also has open sights which I prefer for all DG hunting, especially leopard over dogs (I only need to shoot if the brown stuff hits the fan.) Then, when this cat came, I/ the client shot it off centre in the chest/ in the front paw from close range, which slowed it down a bit, and after it jumped on Willem (one of the trackers), you can clearly see it did not have a lot of fight left in it, so it only chewed his left hjand, and scratched him on one of his legs, before he kicked him off, and Francois killed it. Now I firmly believed that if I had the .450 there, that cat was dead at our feet. Two hunts later, we had another charge by a leopard, and that cat folded with the .450, partly because of the bigger bullet, partly because of shotplacement, but mostly because I know my .450 so much better, and I shoot open sights with it exclusively.
I am off again tomorrow morning for a lion hunt, hope we do not need to practice this theory...!

(sorry of the video quality, we took it off the little screen of the camera with another one, as the cameraman (who I thinkl did extremely good), did not have a cable to download it.)

Karl, good to hear from you again. We are looking forward to you making it out here this winter.

Come on Ray, that is a pretty wide wand you are waving there to dismiss the military guys and then suggest that they will just hit the burst switch when things fall apart. From what I have seen these guys are using exact placement at muzzle to muzzle distances and are required to not only kill the bad guy, but save the hostage ande be fully accountable for each round fired. Hardly a pray and spray.

Ray, I realize you are on one end of the country and I am on the other, but I'd bet we could cross paths at some point for a bit of shooting. I'd hate to take advantage of a feller with your advanced age and infirmity but I bet we could still have a spot of fun. bring one of you big bolt rifle and you can shoot againsut my bolt with appropriate optics. Of course I would't keep your rifle if you lost.

Might make for a neat little side match.

ss

A scope is better for the first shot at everything except for elephants. And a reasonably low power variable for the game hunted, imo 1x4 for buff for example, with an illuminated reticle that has a reticle that is still good when the battery dies is the epitome.

But when it comes to elephants, proper express sights or a good wide apperature are far, far better. Any optical sight on a rifle results in a large blind spot, even whith both eyes open , which for a righty is to the right and forward. Moreover, the blind spot goes from ground to quite high, high enough to hide an elephant. Go get a scoped rifle out of your rack and try it if you doubt this.

For anyone to make their express or apperature sight work best, file the friggin' bead! If the bead is not filed flat, there will be shifting poi as the light changes. For example, if the light is on the right, the right side of the bead will be more visible and you will center the most visible portion, pushing the shot will be to the left. Vice versa for sun on the left. Not much change in poi, but some, a couple of inches at 50yds. Its so easy to eleiminate it that it is just dumb not to. And beads are a dime a dozen if you screw it up.

For the bead to show well in any light, file it at about a 30* cant off vertical, low portion toward breech high portion to muzzle. Then polish it.

Guys who claim optics are better for elephants, or for follow ups are either kidding themselves or don't have the experience, or haven't figured out what good open sights are maybe.

JPK

JPK, you are politely full of baloney. An elephant is just another target. Just because you really like traditional express sights for elephant hunting does not make it true.

If you really believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation you just don't have enough expierence with other sighting systems to make an accurate determination.

I have noticed that the marine corps has put in a large order for express sights for the guys that are fighting room-to-room, they have noticed that the Eotech's are blocking too much of their vision when engaging multiple armed insurgents at less than 10 feet.

Ok, too silly a circular thread. I'm out.

ss

Sharpshooter,
I have been in both places, I just don't care to discuss shooting people on the internet or anywhere else..My business is hunting and I have an opinnion there, and probably considerably more experience than most.

The fact that some of us disagree with you is supposed to be along the lines of intelligent conversation, not a flaming thread..

If you are content with scope, or whatever, I certainly have no problem with that and I recommend it for you, I on the other hand prefer the irons and I have used both extensively for years, but in the thick stuff and to be quick I want the flat plain of a quarter rib and I point shoot at up to 25 yards..

I can probably perform as well as anyone you know, and if we ever get together I will put up the money and we'll shoot, and young man if you hurry I will take all your money home with me..:) If you wait too long I'll be too old to lift the gun. I might add that I used to shoot at the San Antonio range when I was with DEA with a fellow marine you might know, Carlos Hathcock, He would have advised you not to shoot against me.

BTW, I ment no slur by suggesting they would hit the speed switch, it's just what I would do up close and personal..I never thought much of a one shot kill, its apt to get you killed IMO. I have yet to see any government do anything right or anything that could not be improved on. I have know a lot of soldiers, policemen, PHs, guides, and hunters that could not shoot. Being iin the military is not a license to be a good shot. That is something one works at, practices continuelly and earns.

I hope your not as mad as you sound, it was an interesting conversation for awhile there.

I can see a few flaws in the argument that the military uses scopes for house to house fighting. Therefore they, scopes, are better.
They don't use conventional hunting scopes. They use Red-Dot sights. No magnification on almost all of them. The illuminated dot simply appears to float in space with no significant blind spots. Hunting scopes, aren't like that.
Second, the weapon of choice for house cleaning is the Uzi, not the various M16's. Sure, with a collapasable stock, they can be handled like an Uzi.
For hostage situations, the weapon of choice is the open sighted handgun. Shot two handed. Again, you can use an M4 type rifle, but there the sights of choice are the laser sights. E

First Erem. you are mistaken, uzi's are not the weapon of choice. Most are using what is issued, the M4 with an Eotech or some other red dot sighting system. The better equipped teams are equipped with MP-5s. The high-speed low-drag guys are equipped as they see fit.

Ray, I am tiring a bit of this attitude of yours that you have done everything and are better at it and everyone else is completely wrong. Simply shooting with Hathcock, Keith or McGivern does not necessarily mean that you have cornered the market on shooting information. You might be a better speed shot than I am but you could just as easily get a spanking from me. Simple arrogance backed with nothing more than talk is wearing thin and I am beginning to rethink doing business with you.

That last deer hunt you sent me on was a pretty sorry operation that was full of talk and the guys running it were much more interested in driving around after dark and looking for good deer that oddly never showed at their stand sights. Pretty clear they were hunting for themselves.

After this blusterous talk here I am beginning to wander what kind of operation you are running on this upcoming mule deer hunt. Is this hunt all talk and no horns? You rub elbows with the best hunters in the world and teach them all about shooting dangerous game, and that is fine. But I am going to be a little unhappy if this is yet another drive around the scenic side of the of the mountain with pretty real estate and no mule deer.

I've trusted you up til now but after this loud mouth deal hear I am beginning to smell a problem. Ok, you are the toughest shot around on DG( so you say)what about booking a hunt that delivers on it promises?

josh

josh

Lets focus on this portion of your post:
"If you really believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation you just don't have enough expierence with other sighting systems to make an accurate determination."

As I said in my post, express or apperature sights are by far the best option for elephants. As I also said in my post, a scoped bolt rifle with an appropriately low range variable, with a bold reticle and illumninated dot is the best choice for all other situations save follow up.

This is from my post:
"A scope is better for the first shot at everything except for elephants. And a reasonably low power variable for the game hunted, imo 1x4 for buff for example, with an illuminated reticle that has a reticle that is still good when the battery dies is the epitome."

So, where did I say I "...believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation..."

Now, I did say that they are best for elephant hunting, especially up close, where it ought to be done, and follow up.

From my post:
"But when it comes to elephants, proper express sights or a good wide apperature are far, far better."

Also from my post:
"Guys who claim optics are better for elephants, or for follow ups are either kidding themselves or don't have the experience, or haven't figured out what good open sights are maybe."

Nowhere did I say, "I '...believe that express sights are better, no matter the situation...'" You are making things up.

BTW, for the inexperienced (that would be you), if your going to shoot elephants at 50yds, they are still better, since the heart/lung target is the size of the top of a 50gal drum and the brain shot is increasingly difficult to make as range grows.

Moreover, if you go elephant hunting enough, especially in the jess, you will eventually have a run in with an elephant, maybe a buff, maybe something else. Your scope, 1x or not, isn't woth s--t at 10, 5, 3 yards.

But I have forgotten, now that you have shot one elephant, which took a couple of tries with your scoped double before you made your fatal shot, you are an expert!

As far as your s--tty attitude, and your especially s--tty post in response to Ray, with whom I do not always agree, I have seen you get [bleep] before when you sense you are not winning what ought to be a debate or that people are not sufficiently in awe of your (inexperienced) opinion.

Worse, your post can be paraphrased as, "If you won't agree with me, I'm taking my ball and going home." That is imature at best in any situation, put expecially piss poor when your are using business, money and threats to try to get someone to agree with your (inexperienced) opinion on an utterly unrelated topic. Doing it in a public forum and in the way you have while bring up your disastifaction regarding a previous deer hunt sold to you be Ray is just low.

Go ahead, take your ball and go home, eh.

JPK

JPK, with all due respect this discussion has essentially ben that you have lots of expereince hunting elephant so unless one of us is Bell, Taylor or JPK we are just silly want to bees that are not permitted to speak on the subject.

Admitally, I have killed exactly one bull elephant. He was killed with a searcy double rifle in 357 fl and the rifle had a 1.1x4 S&B Zenith flashdot scope on it. Had it not been for the red dot the elephant would not have bee taken. I shot low on my first shot because unlike you I go nervous and excited. the secound round caught him in the should and the PH fired two rounds that this time even tough he could not see his iron sights. I chased down the elephant and in about 100 yards he had decided that he was coming back. One round at the edge or the neck/spine area ended it. I am humiliated that I didn;t get to take an elephant under your more honorable conditions. Shame must follow for this kill.

Now obviously Ray Atkinson has shot alongside some of the most famous shots of all time. No doubt Ray in the Paderfamilius situation is despensing information and tips to thw young men under his care. Perhaps in the style of the "Godfather."


Now I would really like to participatr in full, honest testing regimen that ccould

I'm still not sure if you're a troll, or posting from a managed care facility.

JPK, I forgot to fully admit to sissy status on the elephant kill. My first shot was head on the 20 yards and the final shot was taken during a charge at a distance of like 10 yds so obviously I must take tripple negative points for full cowardice on the elephant. Obviously I must fully admit to that act of cowardice and throw myself on the mercey of the court.

I am going to have to re-think my status as an elephant. Since I am not using iron sigts in the proscribed manner. I may well about to be asked to leave the tea party.

josh

"...I have killed exactly one bull elephant. He was killed with a searcy double rifle in 357 fl and the rifle had a 1.1x4 S&B Zenith flashdot scope on it. Had it not been for the red dot the elephant would not have bee taken. I shot low on my first shot because unlike you I go nervous and excited. the secound round caught him in the should and the PH fired two rounds that this time even tough he could not see his iron sights. I chased down the elephant and in about 100 yards he had decided that he was coming back. One round at the edge or the neck/spine area ended it."

Lets look at the portion of your post quoted above.

In particular, lets look at that first shot:
"Had it not been for the red dot the elephant would not have bee taken. I shot low on my first shot..."

So, explain how in the hell that S&B helped you out if you missed the shot?

Now the second shot:
"[T]he [sic] secound round caught him in the should[er] [sic]"

If you include the shoulder blade as part of the vitals, the target size expands to not just the lid of a 55gal drum, but to the whole damn drum. Christ, the elephant was 20yds away! Do you really nead an illuminated reticle scope to hit the lid of a 55gal drum or even the whole drum at 20yds?

I have the S&B Zenith 1.1x4 with the #4 style illuminated reticle. It is the perfect scope, the perfect reticle for a 375H&H (or Flanged, or Ruger) for any hunting EXCEPT elephant hunting, where no scope is the best choice.

Go kill another dozen or so elephants and then come back and tell me you still think that a scope is a better choice.

BTW, here's something for thought: Your PH put two rounds into the elephant's shoulder, he didn't need or use his sights.

JPK

JPK, the PH fired two rounds in my elephant and did not use his sights because he could not find them and those two shots were of zero use. He had no idea where where they went.

How about you take your self proscibed silly expert status and pound sand. Again you are all talk and no reason. You say so and it must be true. Sounds like you are long on verbal masturbation, again.

josh

I always get a hoot when some inexperienced twit, or one with expertitis gained from such limited, fleeting involvement as yours, goes around telling experienced guys they don't know s--t.

Happens every day in every endevour, hunting, shooting, fishing, business, investing...

You've been doing it to Ray as well, novice. What a one trip wonder.

But lets stick to elephant hunting, double rifles and their regulation, accurate shooting. You have made an ass of yourself with your expertitis on these topics, here and on AR. That's right, every f--kin' double rifle you have tried, Searcy, Hyem, shoots like hell because it is the rifle, eh? Couldn't possibly be the one common denominator, which is the opperators inexptitude, eh?

Don't forget the exchange where you told one and all that there is no need to shoot off a bench and bags when the hood of the pick-up is availble, after all, the wobble and shake from the pick-up only fits with a double rifle's accuracy potential, right?

Go back and hunt for and kill another dozen or so elephants, do it in the jess, up close. When you return, I predict you will end up knowing why DG PH's, especially elephant PH's shoot open sighted rifles and understanding that they are right, that Ray is right, that I am right, that open sights are the best option for elephant hunting.

If you return and still think a scope is better, at least you will have a foundation for your opinion.

BTW, the elephant died, if you told the truth, he had 5 bullet holes in him, one smaller hole in the head from you, another in the neck from you, and another in the shoulder from you, two in the heart/lung/shoulder from the PH. BS that the PH or you didn't know where his bullets went.

Also if the elephant was charging you and "...the final shot was taken during a charge at a distance of like 10 yds so", how did you kill it with "One round at the edge or the neck/spine area..." that "...ended it."? No possible way to make a neck shot on an elephant that is actually charging you, though it is possible to shoot low and reach the spine.

JPK

Sharpshooter,
I apoligise if I have set you off..I thought we were having some fun and your the one that tossed out the challange to a shooting match..

I was not aware that you were unhappy with my $2500 whitetail hunt last year, for that you were allowed a buck, doe and all the hogs you could shoot, the use of the lodge, unguided but assisted if need be, and you didn't complain about it, until you got mad at this thread, thats the trouble with the internet..It was not guided, it was not fenced, and the deer are 120 to 130..Its a hunt designed not to break the pocket book, a perfect father son hunt, and my clients had 99% success on deer last year..I hunted the last two days and shot a 3x3 buck and a big Russian hog..I believe you arrived there with unreasonable expectations. If you wanted a big whitetail trophy deer I would have sent you elsewhere at about $5500 or more. I am sorry you feel the way you do about it.

I also know that you booked a hunt with me this year, and I also didn't know that you were sharpshooter, so your posts are a little unfair to me...However, I have sent your money to Wayne and I am willing to give you a full refund and will advise Wayne to do that if that is what you want to do, However Wayne has nothing to do with what has happened here..

One of the ills of the internet. Again I apoligise and sorry that you feel the way you do about me as I have enjoyed our business relationship and thought it was good.

Atkinson, you are twisting around that Seymour hunt trying to make it sound like something it wasn't. I contacted you for a quick hunt to waste a little time. No big deal, just some modest sized deer. First off Stony was off busy with other hunters, and his Dad kept me in a stand close to his house, minimal work. I saw a couple of yearlings, no hogs and one little year and half buck that was running for his life. We did spend a lot of time spotlighting after dark and anytime we saw a little buck I noticed my stand for the next day was a long ways off. I didn't hunt more than 150 acres the whole time. Essentially I got the "dog and pony" show to keep me clear of anything they didn't want killed.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the time of not being in on the little scam. Even thought I might trust you one more time. But frankly, the "sonny" and other arrogant remarks you are so fast with have been wearing a little thin. We both know that the guys that hunt for a real living are using much more effective systems than iron sights. Iron sights makes the boneheads feel like they are real life PHs. And only these PH wannabees are allowed to tell people what they can hunt elephant with. Being correct is not the question, being big bwana is. What a silly joke.

Frankly JPK is doing his best to own the title of elephant expert and send down his missives from the mount. He's full of [bleep] and he knows it, but playing big bwana gets him off. Big deal, go pound sand. If you can't have a thoughtful, reasonable conversation on the subject, you know where the sand is. You are still a joke.

So Atkinson, what am I supposed to do? I've made arrangements to be on this hunt, my nephew is dying to go because he has been looking forward to it for weeks and now I don't know if I am dealing with a thief. Does this guy actually have access to property with good deer populations? Does he even have access to more than 100 acres? What am I supposed to do? Cancel and try to find a more reputable outfitter in two weeks? Just go and hope for the best?

I am open to suggestions here Ray. I guess you can just call me "sonny" that seems to be the most natural thing for you if you have any thoughts.

SharpsShooter,

perhaps this kind of thing is best discussed in private - only with the parties concerned?

Just a thought...

Josh,
You do whatever you want, I have given you the option, I think the West Texas hunt is a good hunt, but I also think the Seymour hunt is a good hunt and I had good luck there as did all my other hunters that I sent there? I am sorry you didn't like it, It is a low fenced hunt and weather etc. can make a difference, I wasn't there when you were. You didn't complain to me after the hunt or I would have tried to make it right for you..You have waited a year to come up with all this and only mentioned after you got mad at a couple of us on the thread..

I have tried to be as polite as possible since I realized I made you mad and who you were, even though I don't agree with you on certain things, and I have apoligised several times and that is as far as I'm going to go. I told Wayne to refund you if you wanted a refund, so that is a decision you will have to make..He has access to a lot of land, most west Texas ranches are 20,000 acres to 100,000 ac.

Atkinson, I actually did make contact with about the Seymour hunt and you pretty much brushed it off. I am sure there are a few people that enjoyed it, but I got shanked on purpose and chalked it up to experience. I even had the courtesy to try booking with you again and now you are offering a refund. I am out a bit more than just what I paid you but so be it.

You made a clever little side-step statement there saying Wayne Weimer? (is that how his name is spelled) has access to a lot of land. And then you're little generic statement that most west Texas ranches are 20,000 to 100,00 ac.

1) I want to know exactly how much property that Wayne has access to.

2)I want to know which properties they are by name and the driving distances from Marfa.

3) I'd also like to know how often Wayne puts hunters on deer and the names of some of the ones that he hasn't.

These seem to be pretty straight forward requests considering the last cluster screw and the way you are known for taking care of your customers.

Josh

No, its not a stright forward request as you have already talked to Wayne about all those things early today,and your just trying to stir up more crap, He is under the impression that you still want to hunt with him.

I don't give a damn what you do.. your making all kinds of BS accusations towards me and now your playing games. I have tried to be polite with you and I apoligised twice. that's it, no more, you do whatever you want.

You have done all of this for one reason alone and that is because I disagreed with you on a iron sight discussion and that in itself is BS, I don't have to agree with you on such a subject, especially one you know nothing about.

Everyone else last year got a deer in Seymour including myself on the last day of season and I saw half a dozen bucks in a day and half of hunting..Also I shot a large hog...You didn't get a deer and you told me so, you were not mad at the time. I can't help that you failed to connect, I regret it when a hunter does not kill his game, but I will say that everyone else did. I don't guarentee a deer on a fair chase hunt. I never guarenteed you a deer..I find it strange that your the only one that didn't get a deer. Now I am wondering if your the hunter that showed up at the ranch with no groceries and begged off on the rancher to feed you meals, knowing that you were supposed to bring food adn cook for yourself and that it was not a guided hunt, said so in the add? was that you sonny!

You can do whatever the hell you please for this year, I don't want anything more to do with you and would prefer to refund you your money, but that is up now up to you and Wayne as I have sent him your deposit as you well know.. I talked to Wayne today and he agreed to refund you if that's what you really want. He has nothing to do with Seymour or this BS your spewing around.

I will never book you again for a hunt of anykind and that is for sure. Some people just can't be pleased and your one of them. I am no miracle worker.

This is my last post, take your money and run or go hunt. Wayne is in no way involved in this unless you make him so. He is just trying to make a living and do his best to provide good hunts for his clients.

What a treat of a post!

Lets focus on this portion:
"Atkinson, you are twisting around that Seymour hunt trying to make it sound like something it wasn't."

Hmm, now going from trying to blackmail Ray into supporting your foolish and inexperienced notions, you have accused Ray of outright lying.

And this portion:
"...his Dad kept me in a stand close to his house, minimal work." And, "We did spend a lot of time spotlighting after dark and anytime we saw a little buck I noticed my stand for the next day was a long ways off." Followed by, "I didn't hunt more than 150 acres the whole time."

More than a little contradiction here, eh? Close to home, but lots of driving, and stands a long ways off...

Now this portion:
"I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the time of not being in on the little scam. Even thought I might trust you one more time."

Hmmm, now gone from accusing Ray of being a lyer to being a thief.

Topped by this portion:
"But frankly, the "sonny" and other arrogant remarks you are so fast with have been wearing a little thin."

Translates into, "because you disagree with me you are annoying me and because you have experience and point it out, while have little you are arrogant. Aw shucks, such thin pasty skin.

Lets look at this completely moronic and contradictory has"
"We both know that the guys that hunt for a real living are using much more effective systems than iron sights. Iron sights makes the boneheads feel like they are real life PHs. And only these PH wannabees are allowed to tell people what they can hunt elephant with. Being correct is not the question, being big bwana is. What a silly joke."

So, are you saying that DG and elephant PH's, who do hunt for a real living, hunt with scopes? Other optical systems? Not hardly. Not only that, but they use open sights for a damn good reason!

Now, as far as wanting to be equiped as well as a PH who is using open sights, the optimal sights for elephant hunting, well, I'll plead guilty to wanting to using the optimal sighting system for elephant hunting! I'll also plead guilty to using a rifle in the stopping catagory to!

Apparently, a whole continent full of DG and elephant hunting PH's are using the incorrect sighting system when they use open sights. Sharpshooter knows best, afterall, he has shot one elephant, and he missed the shot on that one with his correctly scoped rifle at that.

This portion in particular earns a hoot!:
"And only these PH wannabees are allowed to tell people what they can hunt elephant with."

I can only figure that Ray and I are PH wannabees. Funny but my posts never told [bleep] what to use or what he could use, only what was the best option for elephant hunting. And Ray's posts were similar, except that he specifically told [bleep] to use whatever he felt best, especially if he didn't know open sights, which I think is more than obviouos.

Then there is this portion:
"Frankly JPK is doing his best to own the title of elephant expert and send down his missives from the mount. He's full of [bleep] and he knows it, but playing big bwana gets him off. Big deal, go pound sand."

My answer is for [bleep] to go earn some experience and then come back. IMO, his tune will have changed and he will be an open sight fan, but if it doesn't, at least he will have some experience behind his opinion, instead of nothing but vapor.

And the last individual portion that I will take a look at:
"If you can't have a thoughtful, reasonable conversation on the subject, you know where the sand is. You are still a joke."

[bleep], for it to be a thoughful discussion, participants have to have cogent thought. For cogent thought, you have to have experience on topic. As an alternative, one who has very limited experience may just want to learn from others who have much, much more. As you have made abundantly clear, your definition of "reasonable" discussion includes only discussion in which all who have a hell of a lot more experience that you agree only with you.

As I wrote earlier, it is always a hoot when those with no, or very limited, experience tell those with a hell of a lot more that their experience doesn't count for anything; when the novice gets pissy because those who have a hell of a lot more experience do not agree with them. And talk about arrogance!!! It takes a whole lot of arrogance for a one event wonder to tell much more experienced guys that they are emphatically wrong, and even more arrogance to tell them that they are wrong because of their experience and because they prefer open sights as do those who do the same thing for a living.

The rest of the post is a friggin' insult to Ray, imo and I'll leave that to Ray. But to blackmail a guy for not agreeing with him about something you know little about is damned, damned low.

This is how Ray responded, and I can't say it better:
"You have done all of this for one reason alone and that is because I disagreed with you on a iron sight discussion and that in itself is BS, I don't have to agree with you on such a subject, especially one you know nothing about."

Followed by:
"I will never book you again for a hunt of anykind and that is for sure."

And, "This is my last post, take your money and run or go hunt."

JPK

Damn Ray, I took you for less of a liar than that. I showed up with all the groceries and did well cooking for myself. The only thing I did not do was shoot little yearlings. I never laid eyes on even a half way shootable deer, and zero hogs. Funny that you had such extraordinary luck on this hunt. Then you lied when you said I did not contact you about how I was unhappy with the nighttime hunting those owners were doing.

I don't see a BS accusation yet. Just a bunch you don't want to answer. And I love those apologies....well I am sorry but you didn't kiss the right ass.... Polite with you means admitting you are right and I am wrong no matter the situation.

You are correct in one of your little spats, I don't agree with you on iron sights and you are unable to discuss the situation calmly and logically. You must use loud mouth "Hell I was there!!! bullshit to try to make your point. Big mouth don't make you a big man.

So everyone else at Seymore got a deer but me? Sounds like you guys might have gotten a bit of special treatment. Maybe some pastures that were off limits to me or did you shoot them in the spotlight? Sounds like that spotlight and you may be very close associates. Very curious. Now maybe you'd better get on the phone and see if I was the beggar hunter or is that yet another lie you intend to let stand?

And Atkinson I am pretty sure that you will not have to bother with booking me in the future on a hunt. I do my best to deal with honest men, that do honest business. I try to avoid big mouth liars who are trying to make their money on bluff and farts. I was warned about you and your poor ethics by several of your past customers. I should have listened to them. Shanks abound in all fields, it appears that you have worked you way to the bottom, which is no mean feat considering all the new shanks in the field. Maybe you can be their standard bearer. "Scum of the world, Unite! We've no were to go but down!!!.

I don't know what to do with Wayne Weimer?. He sounds like an honest man trying to make a living, which is fine with me. My only real reservation is that he has had contact with you and your business ethics. I don't know if he is an honest enough man to deal with you considering your filth. I suppose that I will just call him and use my best judgement. I want a decent hunt but that is pretty much impossible around you. I don't know how much you may have tainted him as a honest human being. Did you leave him any morality to work with or is he a thieving snake in the grass like you?

I just don't know what to do. I'll guess I'll call Wayne Weimer and give him an honest opportunity at my buisiness.

As for you Atkinson, you could make at least a small gesture to try to make up for the Seymour theft. Nothing much, just a gesture.

Whatever, josh

JPK, yack and sand, yack and sand, yack and sand.

You're creditability and experience is right up there with yack and sand.

Editted this beaut to some "lowlights".

Your f--ckin' kidding right?

Call a guy a lier, a crook, filth, and a "thieving snake in the grass" and then try to roll him for money for a year old hunt?

[bleep], you got some real "issues", and being a total, complete prick is only a minor one.

JPK

Coming from you, that is high praise indeed, novice.

One event wonder that you are.

Go shoot a dozen os so elephants, earn a little wisdom and experience.

JPK

JPK, I thought you were still wacking sand?

Here is a comment from Bill Stewart, another experienced elephant hunter, regarding dolts like you. Read it and maybe, maybe, if you ever earn the experience, you will understand how much of a fool you are being:

"But then when you get enough experience to talk intelligently about the subject at first you are angry, then you try to explain it to the unknowing, and then finally you give up trying to convert the terminally stupid."

BTW, Bill uses open sights on his rifles. He preffers wide apperatures.

JPK

Sharpshooter
The truth is you totally over reacted to a silly thread on the internet because you were challanged, then you made some stupid remarks and got your tit in a wranger, so you have attempted to turn it around by lieing about me and attacking my integrity. That is pretty CS IMO.

If you hated your hunt in Seymour so bad, I ask you why did you booked with me again this year to go Mule Deer hunting?? and don't give me that well I'm such a forgiveing good ole boy, you pretty much voided that excuse.

You didn't see any shootable deer at Seymour? I went after you, in fact the last day, and I saw half a dozen shootable bucks in the 120 range and shot about a 130 buck and a hog. That was after the place had been hunted for 45 days. I was in the house stand that you were in as its the closest stand to the big grain fields duh!, thats the stand you condemed as too close to the house btw.

As far as I know your the only hunter that didn't get two deer and hogs? That is a matter of record btw with Texas Game and Fish if you want to check it out. I know your the only one of my hunters that didn't connect. They all got a buck, doe and I think they shot hogs at night.

My suggest that you either go on your Mule Deer hunt or Wayne will give you your money back..But then both options pi-- you off don't they?, so just what the hell would you have me do, I would like to hear one rational statement come out of your mouth.

In my opinnion hunting fair chase behind low fences and hunting wild deer can meet with failure..I have failed to connect on many fair chase hunts. I have failed to see buffalo in the Selous or deer on the best ranches in NM and Texas for days at a time. It's called hunting, not shooting. I get a kick out of the steriotype that says "I want a fair chase hunt, no high fences," but then when he does not kill or see game, the whining starts..That fellow is NOT a hunter, he is a shooter with a line of bull. That is where I have put you sonny!

I have seen folks make a fool of themselves but you take the cake..BTW I take back all my early apoligizes, you don't deserve them.

Now here is your option, go with Wayne and have a great hunt or get your money back, I dont' know what else I can do, nor do I intend to, I personally would prefer you didn't go, but you paid your deposit and so its up to you and Wayne. I sure as hell don't want your business. If I was the outfitter, I would send your money back and refuse to hunt anyone that conducts themselve like you do.

Atkinson, I have to admit I was warned about your lousy business practices. I should have stayed with a more reputable person. The state that was made is that you were prone to book hunters to use their money for your hunting.

The Seymour hunt was a pretty shorty set-up maybe to make certain you got plenty to shot. They did a pretty good job keeping me away from any nice area.

Matter of fact Stony's dad did a long slurpy ass kissing job when I left because he knew he screwed me.

I got a pretty good brush off from you as I recall.

The whole situation is my fault for not trusting a better man than you, and those sonny comments reminded me of the quality of the man I a
dealing with.

You are simply an unimportant old man trying to act like he matters to the world.

I am sorry that you are not man worth looking up to, instead of the bitter fop you are.

I was warned about your low character and I guess I had to learn it for myself.

I'll deal with the varsity on future hunts, you are not worth risk.

Too bad, the world needs more good men, you're not one of them.
Josh

JPK, OH MY GOD you have become Bill Stewart's hero! You have the WIDEST APERTURE any of us have ever seen. And to DOUBLE your STATUS, your HUGE APERTURES are at both ends, BOTH ORAL and ANAL! BOY HOWDY!

Take pride in those HUGE APERTURES JPK, you earned them.

And before anyone gets excited, you've to to admit THAT was funny!

j

In truth, I wish I had handled the deal with Atkinson differently. Some of you got the impression I might have wanted money from him on the goat screw hunt he sent me on at Seymour. Thankfully money is not much of an issue with me anymore. God has been so gracious to me and my family. In all truth, the real reason the hunt did not go very well is because I refused to take the bait and shoot deer in the spotlight. I didn't understand at first why they would stick me in a stupid box blind all day, and not let me walk the pastures because that would "scare the deer." But as soon as it was dark it was fine to spend a few hours spotlighting deer. I guess it didn't occur to me that I was supposed to be shooting the little guys. My fault, I didn't know.

Second, I have always tried to like atkinson and when I have seen those knock down drag out fights over there on AR I figured it was just some princess city hunter pissed because the deer weren't tied to the tree on time and the Chardonnay was the wrong brand (if chardonnay has different brands).

So big deal at Seymour, I figure Atkinson doesn't know that they are spotlighting, saving deer for themselves, whatever. But now Atkinson's story is that I am too stupid to shoot the deer that are all over the place? Yah, I think not. I've killed truck loads of all kinds of game.

So now I am thinking a winter-time hunt until I go back to Africa in 2010. Once again I tell Atkinson I am interested in a hunt (NOT seymour) how about mule deer? Fine send atkinson $1800 or so and he'll have his man there contact me.

So I get a call from the guy in Marfa, good guy, bad guy, I dunno. And he tells me he has never met Atkinson, talked on the phone, heard from a friend, etc.

Then we have this little discussion thread going on where atkinson doesn't want to discuss the subject at hand politely and jokingly. He claims he doesn't know who I am after numerour contacts, cahsier's checks, etc. and suddenly I am "sonny" and talked down to like a young child. He does that slick little lying apology, "I am sorry, but you did....", or "I am sorry if something I accidentily said irritated you..."

So now I am thinking I am getting shafted AGAIN and treated like a child over a silly little conversation.

I have called this Wayne a couple of times now and from what he SAYS he seems to be a decent, honest feller interested in a legal hunt. Which oddly enough is all I wanted. As a side not he did everything he could to distance himself from atkinson.

I still find it hard to dislike atkinson, I have no doubt he has screwed over many more hunters than me, but still there is a thread that I want to like about him.

Obviously I am going to deal with someone more dependable in the future, I doubt atkinson will change his ways.

Maybe if things would have been different and we could have met face to face on a hunt, we might have gotten off on the right foot.

I dunno.

I doubt you'd get off on the right foot there sonny......it seems that's the one that's always in your mouth....thereby not leaving a leg to stand on.

Josh,
Your a piece of work, your the kinda guy that if you can't eat it then you crap on it, so no one else can..Your cussing me and accusint Wayne of being a crook also, but you told him today you still wanted to do the hunt..Don't come crying to me if you dont' get a deer (but I am betting you will), I offered you your money back, and I don't want you to go hunt there. Wayne has no dog in this fight unless you sic on him also..

I don't want you to like me, so don't do me any favors, You can't call me a liar in one breath and say you still like me in the other, that's just how two faced you are...Make no mistake since you lost it on this thread and said the things you said, I do not like you anymore, trust me on that.

here and in Seymour and in Marfa is wrong and your the only one that is right and now you making up lies about everything anyone sez, you ran out of truths an long time ago..

I think your stark raving mad, a total freak of nature, dumber than a box of hammers, if you were a good person you would have contacted me after the hunt and told me you got screwed, which you didn't, you just know more than anyone else..Those ranch people at Seymour are good people. they figure if they put you in one of the stands you would get a deer like everyone else, your probably blind, smell bad or too noisy..You can't set someone up as you can't control deer you dumb ass..

I think everything we say from this point on is just repetitions and I for one am going to let it go....I do hope you have a good Mule Deer hunt with Wayne, but I wonder if you will come back on here an apoligize if you get a good one, but that would be out of character.

Ray, your reading comprehension is poor. I don't intend to refute your silly oft repeated little lies. I agreed to hunt with Wayne based on his word, not yours. All I ever wanted from anyone, including you was an honest hunt. I wasn't unhappy about not killing a deer at Seymour, I was unhappy about being cheated and the question was how deeply you were personally involved in the deceit.

From what I can tell from my phone conversations with Wayne he does not seem to be in league with your deceit. So since I had already scheduled my time for this hunt and my nephew is un-believably excited, we decided to to ahead. I even asked Wayne to make sure we put my nephew on a couple of javelinas even if the mule deer get pushed to the back of the hunt. So I am going to trust Wayne and I consider you to have no further involvement.

Anyway, I did not mean my earlier post to give you the impression that I somehow liked or respected you. Your lack of a sense of honor and integrity would preclude any respect. I suppose that I was lamenting the fact that you have not lived up to the kind role model that so many young men need.

I guess all men have their failings and yours has been honesty. I sure wanted to believe in you, and truthfully I wanted to like you.

Somethings are just not meant to be. Your desire for that last dollar and that loud, nasty response you give to those that question you has served you well.

I don't dislike you, I wanted to like you, now I just pity you. I pity how you could have been a positive influence on all these younger hunters. Now you are just a bitter, dishonest, old man that is of little use to the world around him. A wasted, pitiful life.

I'm sorry for all of us that could have profited from your experience. It has been a pitiful outcome for us all.

j

No dog in this fight, but getting back to the original topic of open sights on DGRs.

I didn't have the good fortune of killing an elephant on my first hunt for them this summer - booked through Ray who delivered exactly the conditions promised and a no-BS PH carrying a 500NE Searcy with irons, and who I'll hunt with again - but I spent enough time close in among hundreds of elephants to know that as much as I like the scoped bolt action I carried, when I go back I'll carry an open sighted DR. Just an opinion from a non-expert.

[bleep],
I have been in business for over 40 years and its a tough business and you don't survive it being dishonest, but you will on very rare ocassions run up against someone like yourself that is irrational and frankly just plain ignorant and full of testosterone..I can't keep everyone happy and I can't get everyone a particular game animal because I only book fair chase hunts, but my success rate is at least 98% and I will bet money on that. I have folks, and yes some are on the internet daily that have hunted with me up to 14 or 15 times over the years..
If I was what you claim, this would not be a fact.

You have set out to do one thing and that is seek revenge, and it is hurting you much more than it is me, that "sonny" is the way vengence works. If you were anyone else I would give you a 99.9% chance of shooting a real nice buck with Wayne, and one in the 24 to 28 inch spread catagory, but in your case I wouldn't venture a guess, however you would have a much better chance of talking a deer to death than shooting one.

Atkinson, you sound like yow are just old and arrogant. Those waning days of your life can be a bitch. Times nearly over and without that big, bad cowboy outfitter veneer you are an empty sack.

Anyway, you have got to be as tired of trading barbs as I am.

What did you think of the skewering I gave JPK on the size of his apertures? You have to admit that was pretty damn funny.

Speaking of mule deer hunting, Wayne recommended I bring my 300 win mag. I've shot that single shot for years including two trips to Africa. And it is deadly. Problem is that I just got in a super nice single shot in 7mm Mauser. I even like the way it shoots with the iron sights. Do you think I should hunt with the 7mm, or play it safe with the 300?

Take care,
josh

[bleep],

You gotta be badly Schizophrenic to crap all over a guy, call him a lier and a thief, a snake in the grass, a bitter old man, an empty sack and an ugly assortment of other undeserved epitats and then ask him for his advice.

And arrogant - jeez is that the pot calling the ketal black!!!

Your apperature joke did have me rolling on the floor, damn funny.

But Bill uses a wide apperature, I use express sights.

Notwithstanding the funny post, you are ill, and beyond that, a fool and a complete and utter prick, novice.

JPK

JPK, I am glad you enjoyed the aperture joke. You gotta admit that one hit right in the middle of the ....err...hole.

Anyway, just why did you call my a novice? I admit I have only been to Africa twice. I killed 17 animals on my first trip with a single shot rifle. On my second trip I killed a trophy bull elephant. In the US I have killed about all there is to kill.

So what makes me a novice? One trophy bull elephant? Maybe its time for you to tell us how many trophy elephants you have killed and the circumstances that you or you PH killed them. Hopefully that will give me some idea of where I fall.

I am very much torn with atkinson. I don't think he was involved in the spotlight poaching that went on at that place in Seymour. Atkinson did'nt mind profitting from that deal though.

I grew up working for ranchers like atkinson where their honor and honesty was more important than their lives. I don't know what happened to atkinson. Maybe nothing else for him to do. Bluff and bluster big hunts that may or not deliver, anyone that doesn't connect is an incomptent moron that can't shoot.

I guess that is why the varsity level hunters are lined up to hunt with him. Essentially atkinson has a phone and a line of bullshit that he hopes gets him paid.

After all that, I have a soft feeling for atkinson. He reminds me of some of those old ranchers I knew that where living from a different age and losing it all. They would do anything to try to hold their operations together. Too bad.

I truth, I do hope to meet atkinson in person. Not likely but still would be nice.

JPK, you are such a nice round target I promise to lay off, for a while.

Ray, I hope your mental health is not too bad. I don't hate you and in an odd way wish well in honest work if you can find it.

j

[bleep],

FYI, I had to delete a post on this thread a few minutes ago because I had trouble with my computer and couldn't copy lines from your post. Needed to re-boot. I tell you this so you don't start with groundless and false accusations like you have with Ray. Anything and more that was in the prior post is in this one.

You ought to know that Ray books hunt for very experienced "Varsity" level African hunters. This I know for fact. I haven't ever booked with Ray, but that is just happenstance. I book through outfitters/opperators I personally know or through PH's with whom I wish to hunt. I booked only my first safari though a booking agent, and it wasn't Ray, but as I said, that was only happenstance.

From your post:
"Anyway, just why did you call my a novice? So what makes me a novice? One trophy bull elephant?"

Yes. The topic is open sights on a client DG rifle. As I have posted, my experience tells me that, for buff, a scoped rifle is the more versatile tool. Also, by far the better tool for lion and leopard. Rhino? Who cares, no wild black rhino to hunt, ditto for white rhino, and white rhino were never one of the big five.

But, as I have also posted, for folow up, should it be required, an open sighted rifle is by far the better tool.

And for elephant, an open sighted rifle is the only appropriate tool.

I have gone into why that is so in previous post, so won't do so now, but it is so.

With your one event, one elephant expertise you more than vehemently disagree. You make disengenouos agruments based on false premises and no experience to try to ram your one event, one elephant experience down the throats of vastly more experience DG and elephant hunters.

In truth, you are a rank novice. This most recent posts makes that ever more clear. Just the way you phrase the question reafirms your inexperience on the topic of open sights for elephant hunting.

For the moment, I will decline to rise to your bait and tell you and the whole board, or an even wider audience how much elephant experience I have, but suffice to say a hell of a lot more than you. More, in fact, than "90% of Zimbabwe PH's" - that according to Buzz Charlton, Zim PH and elephant specialist, and Buzz told me that at one half the number of elephant that I have hunted to date. If you were really inclined to know, you can search and find out without much difficulty.

My lifetime goal is 100 elephants before I am too old or inform to track them, and I am well on my way to aceiving that, given my age.

From your post:
"JPK, you are such a nice round target I promise to lay off, for a while."

Hmm, this reference to "round target" strikes close to home. I have put on 60lbs in the last two and a half years sitting behind my desk. It is the price I pay for what I do, which pays the bills for my family and for my elephant hunting addiction. But feel no need to lay off, criticism by rank novices rolls off my back. Surely I won't lay off when you write fantasies based on false premises and not founded on experience.

On that topic, I can readily disgree with one who has a different opinion than me when that opinion has been earned with hard won experience. Disagree as I might, that earned opinion will carry with me the weight it deserves, and the attendant respect it deserves.

FWIW, Bill Stewart has about as much experience as I do, maybe a little less, maybe a little more. But at that level of experience, an elephant or two, or three, or four, makes little difference. I disagree on some issues with Bill, but he has earned much respect.

Also FWIW, to hopefully put a dose of reality into your misquotations of my opinions, I use a scoped bolt rifle, or a scoped double rifled-barreled shotgun (for shotgun only deer hunting areas) for almost all of my four legged game hunting. For fun, I may use an apperature sighted lever rifle, or an open sighted double rifle, but I do not delude myself into believing that they are the better tool for the task at hand.

But for elephant hunting, an big bore, .458" or better, open sighted double rifle is the best tool.

{Editted to add that you might want to avoid meeting Ray, you may need dental work if you do.}

2nd Edit: I hope you noticed that I did not criticise you for blowing your one and only attempt at a frontal brain shot, only the fact that you so emphatically put forth that a scope was the only way, and that it made a big difference in your hunt. Clearly you blew the shot with your scoped rifle, it didn't make any contribution at all.

But blowing the shot is no big deal, the most experienced PH's blow them not infrequently. After blowing one early on in my elephant addiction, and kicking myself for a couple of days, I had conversations with Roger Whittall and Barry Duckworth. Both are "retired" Zimbabwe PH's who are now opperators. Barry was also a culling officer for Rhodesian Parks and has killed something like a thousand elephants. They were partners, now are neighbors in the Save Conservancy. Both told me to stop kicking myself because they both had plenty of blown brain shots in their day.

Using a big bore rifle, which I do, ~75% of the elephants that I have hunted dropped to the shot. Of those that did drop to the shot, most were brained, but several were just knocked down or down and out. I also killed outright, at the first shot, one elephant even though the bullet passed 1 1/2" over the brain, as later determined when we cut the skull open. (I am an unreformable bullet digger.) Skull fragments into the brain? Enough shock from 500 grains to turn off the brain? I don't know and never will, but the elephant was dead as a stone.

Since I use a double rifle with open sights, my follow up killing shot on those elephants only knocked down is very rapid and precludes a PH's bullet. But all of the ~25% that did not drop to the shot got my second barrel plus a PH's bullet to the heart.

I stopped but failed to kill one elephant that charged us in very thick jess in early May 2008, in Nyakasanga. We were not pursuing this elephant, he came upwind for us. I was closest, at seven yards, and I had the clearer shot. The PH tried to brain the elephant after my two shots stopped him, and the PH missed the brain as well. Thankfully, the elephant was turned and he departed at top speed. But that elephant eluded us, and we lost him after three days on his tracks. Loosing a wounded elephant, even one we didn't intend to shoot, that was a very, very low point in my life.

Last thing, I get sweaty palms and dry mouth when it is time to make the final approach to kill an elephant. The day that I don't is the day that I quit hunting elephant.

So, don't kick yourself too hard for blowing your first brain shot. But do switch to a proper big bore rifle, and do switch to open express or apperature sights. File the bead, never approach early or late with the sun in your face. That was your PH's screw up. He should have known better. Almost all of the time the direction you approach a bull is at least somewhat in your control, they are frquently alone or in a small group, and that means you can vary your approach by 10, 20, 30 degrees, maybe more, and keep the sun behind or to the side. And since elephants are the only game in the world you shoot up at, that is important. If you must approach into the sun, and you must shoot THAT elephant, then that would be the time for a heart shot.

So, go back and try it again. Do it a half dozen times in pretty quick succession, you will learn alot.

JPK

I am glad you said almost always JPK, as its not always. I was the PH on Josh's hunt, and the elephant where walking back on his trail in some really thick bush. The wind was just wrong for us to try anything else, so we waited for him to clear the brush at about 18-20 yards before Josh fired.

I must just add that I really enjoyed both my hunts with Josh, and even told my wife afterwards that I have hunted with few men that where bigger gentlemen.

Karl,
I am sure that Josh was a gentleman in your camp as you provided him with the instant gratification he needed while on the other hand I did not, and for that I am truly sorry, but I cannot guarentee every client success on a fair chase hunt it just doesn't always happen..On that ranch we got 9 bucks for 10 hunters.

I was not aware that Josh was upset until he flamed me for disagreeing with him on iron sights and that is all this is about. He had already booked a Mule deer hunt with me for this year and is going to go on that hunt.. In fact I did not even know that Sharpshooter was Josh when I replied to his challange to a shoot off, which I thought was in fun and I replied as such unfortunatly. I sincerely hope he kills a nice big Mule Deer hunt this year.

I also do not want to be associated with this "gentleman" again. He is arrogant, and into hiself and trying to pass himself off as an expert.

If you get into a shooting match with Josh, bring money. He is a very fine rifle shot, quick and accurate with irons or glass. I shot silhouette competition with him on a monthly basis for several years and have seen him shoot on a number of occasions.

I have always found him to be straight up and straight forward, and unfailingly a gentleman either in the presence of men or in mixed company.

One thing he is not is politically correct. He will call BS at the drop of a hat.

Karl, don't get involved with atkinson. I am just having a bit of fun with the knothead. I wasn't mad about not killing anything on his cheapy little hunt at Seymour. I was a bit miffed about how he misrepsented the hunt. Plenty of country, honest people to deal with, etc. Wow was that a stretch. We spent more time spotlighting deer than anything else. The person who was to conduct the hunt was never around, so he had his Dad stick me in a stand next to the house to keep me away from anything shootable and from his other hunters. It was just a shank deal all around.

But I gave Ray the benefit of the doubt and let it go. I knew he had been from west Texas, so I figured he might know someone honest out there for a mule deer hunt, so I took another chance on him. I was much more careful to check out the hunt myself rather than take Ray's word for it.

The only reason I am going on this mule deer hunt is because the guy running it has nothing to do with Ray. Wayne tells me that he's never even met Ray and has been pretty specific about what hunting ground he has access to. I am not trusting Ray, I am trusting Wayne.

Then Ray feels free give me this "sonny" crap. Somehow he's the world's only authority on anything. So I reminded him he's not exactly the world's hunting authority. Great fun.

Stupid statement about instant gratification Ray. Anyone that knows me understands how silly a statement that is. When Karl and I were hunting elephant and it looked like we were not going to find a good bull I told Karl several times that it was not that big a deal, if we don't get a chance at a good bull, I'll just come back next year and we'll try again. And I had just a bit more money on the line on that bull elephant hunt than on Ray's cheapo fiasco in Seymour. Matter of fact, on the elephant hunt I as much concerned that my beautiful wife get to kill her first African animal as my elephant. Which she did.

Anyway, just a chance to have some fun with the old fart. And Ray, to help you with your reasoning skills. It is not two faced to say that you are a flawed, occasionaly dishonest knothead and to also write that I still in some way kind of way like you. To clarify it for you, a person is referred to as "two faced" if they say nice, kiss ass things to your face and then stab you in the back with other people. In this case I have told you exactly what I think of you to your face.

It has been a hoot, don't you think?

And for some odd reason there is a tiny part of me that still likes you, just a little bit. Maybe its because you said you were from west Texas. By the way, why did you leave? To many people hear how you do business? Ex-wife problems?

Anyway don't be so mad. Obviously I'll book with better outfitters in the future, but can't we still trade friendly barbs now and again? You are a lot of fun, and I am serious when I say that I would like to meet you in person. It would be hard to make happen, my schedule is always tight, but it would be pleasant wouldn't it?

Anyway, take your medicine, try to relax. We'll get to have these chances for fun in the future.

Sincerely yours,
josh

Josh,
Have your testosterone checked, take two aspirin, a valum and a nap....

One elephant and no deer, and your the worlds foremost authority on hunting..Oh yeah, you still mad at Butch because you don't like his rifles? You sonny boy are about the biggest whiner I have ever met and you have made a total fool out of yourself on this thread..I will try my best to survive your hunting with better outfitters...Have a nice hunt for Mule Deer and I mean that, I hope your successful and suspect you will be, but wish you had taken your deposit back as offered.

Gentlemen,

in mud wrestling it does not matter who wins - both parties get dirty.

Just a thought from the side lines.

Atkinson, did you say I haven't shot a deer? Did you mean just this week? I've been tagging out in Texas since 1976. For those of you counting that is many truck loads of deer. I've killed elk, well over two hundred feral hogs, probably 100 wild turkeys, misc. feral goats/sheep and 18 african game animals other than the elephant. I didn't realize you thought I was new to the hunting scene. I've also killed several dozen deer and twenty or so javalines with a longbow I made myself and am a lifetime member of the Professional Bowhunters society. And of all things in high school my cousin and I thought we were going to get rich selling live rattlesnakes. I caught many hundreds of them in those early years.

I certainly would never claim to be the worlds foremost authority on anything, but I am not new to hunting.

And Ray, if you think I have made a fool out of myself on this thread, send me a polite PM and I'll explain foolishness to you. Out of respect for you, I'll not do it here. Also I want you to settle up with me for you Seymour bunch screwing me. It is a tiny thing I want and I promise you will not be embarrassed or humiliated. But it does need to be taken care of privately.

I appreciate the well wishes on the mule deer hunt. If we see a good one I'll do my best to put a hole in it. You never did tell me if you thught I should take the 300 or the new little 7 mauser. Also, I have made a deal with Wayne for him to put my young nephew on a couple of javelines. He's nine and it will be the best thing that has ever happened to him.

If you want to put a polite end to this, just let me know.

Yours,
josh

Ray,
I'd let him keep going. You know what they say about letting someone have enough rope......

Ray, I think you ought to take Josh up on his offer and send him the PM. You stand to listen a little. This is beginning to look like the Son of SheepHunter thread, or "How I Screwed Another Client" You don't want to go there a second time.

Brent's right, I don't want this thread to damage Ray any further. He's trying to run a business here and I am not. So I formally request we let it go. It wasn't as much fun as before anyway.

And just so that everyone knows that my offer to let this end politely was sincere, all I wanted was a warmly autographed picture of Ray on a good looking horse. I really like pictures of the old style cowboys in their old age. I was going to add Ray to my wall.

Anyway, I am done with this one and will report on the mule deer hunt when I get back.

josh

Godspeed, SharpsShooter, may you rest in peace. Prayers and condolences to friends and family.

+1

Well Done CMG....


Ingwe

Karl - That is a great video. I can't beleive how fast that charge started and finished. Professional hunter or not, that was very well done! Seeing that gives great credence to the theory of practicing instinctive or point shooting. You had less than 2 seconds to aim fire and keep track of that leopard.

Open sights are the primary sight on most of my serious hunting rifles. Scopes are something to take along in QD mounts. In good light, open sights are all any good shot needs to 200 yards. In snow, rain, mist and fog, they are indispensable and a scope is rather useless.

Well, Sharpshooter apparantly shot a real nice high horned Mule Deer, and he was happy about it according to the guide..I hope he was..

As to some of the comments I suppose everytime someone doesn't get an animal shot, were at fault...I hope I never have to book a hunt wherein a kill is guarenteed, because it would have to go against my principles...Hunting is hunting,not just killing.

Sheephunter had the same problems in Canada, in Africa and with his taxidermist, he was a swindler and we got him a record class Leopard, and a lot of very good buffalo, the guys at Dallas saw the pictures..I have nothing more to say about that BS.

Ummmmmm . . . . . ..

Lee, this is an African Cape Buffalo question, not an Alaskan question.

BMT

I was stating what works for all dangerous game: cape buffalo, water buffalo, big bears, big cats, big wild boar, in all climates and weather. It is also true for tropical rain forests or northern coastal rain forests.

A red dot sight works very well if it is large enough to shoot with both eyes open and is either long enough to mount across your scope bases, or compact enough to mount on the front base alone.

If you don't think it works for cape buffalo, tell us why.

hahahahahahaha! are you serious Liar24? DO you have irons on your SC made Model70? Can you share with us your DG hunting experience? Please post your douche-bag bogus comments elsewhere. jorge

For jorge and others who seem to be unfamiliar with the Winchester Model 70 African and Safari, they all come with iron sights. The later models (prior to Winchester shutdown in 2006) came with a nice NECG adjustable rear leaf and hooded front sight.

Unfortunately, the comb on the Model 70 is too high and thick for iron sights, being straight for scope sights.

The pre-64 stocks were a little better, and most actions in all calibers were drilled and tapped for aperture sights like the Lyman and Redfield.

I find it curious that some people are so fixated on Mauser controlled round bolt actions for dangerous game, yet don't have iron sights on their rifles, or are not competent enough with them to have any confidence in using them, even at relatively close ranges under 100 yards.

Josh,
Send me your email and you got a picture of me on a horse, and a good too!

YOu posted on this thread three days ago.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...78393/Fallen_Campfire_Member#Post3678393


What dots are you not connecting?

Liar, unlike you, I actually OWN 70s (real ones not ficticious ones that were never manufactured in SC) and have actually taken African game with them on two safaris. Your statement scopes are unsuable in rain or light fog is about as ridiculous (and wrong)as the rest of your BS posts douche-bag. jorge

jorge, I just took you at your word that you were unfamiliar with iron sights on a Model 70. None of your Model 70s have iron sights? That's mighty odd. Did you buy them like that?

Scopes are not totally unusable in rain or fog - iron sights are just more usable, as long as you have decent eyesight. Besides, as I said before, who is going to take a first shot at dangerous game with a .375 or larger rifle at more than easy iron sight range (150 yards ) anyway? That's why scopes are a secondary sight for me. Just more needless weight on an rifle that is already heavy.

"Just more needless weight on an rifle that is already heavy."

I'd suggest you work on the kettlebells some more,....and run maybe 300 miles a day ( at a ground eating pace), as opposed to your current 250, Liar.

Imagine, ....the ICON of of Physical conditioning, whining about the weight of a scope.

"Scopes are not totally unusable in rain or fog -"

Hey, thanks for explaining that, us old NW coast / interior types have been totally in the dark, and going hungry just on that one point.

GTC

I don't need to carry an 11-lb magnum rifle with a large, useless German scope on it to impress anyone. Some of the insecure types may need to - or at least post that they do from mama's basement.

HMmmmm,

Well,ln any event, thanks for cluing all of us "Trolls and Wannabes" in on the way this rifle bit works.

You're a real star.

GTC

If you get out and shoot a rifle with open sights, you could really have something worth posting.

That will make you feel better about yourself than posting silly insults and cheesecake photos for the 13-year-olds.

I am pretty sure everyone is forgetting Lee has bionic eyes and on command he can zoom in and out with only his eyes so scope are useless to him.

I invented the Bionic eye for lee.....your welcome.

If you think it takes bionic eyes to shoot game with open sights at 150 yards, you just need more practice.

So you are saying you don't use them for shots under 150yds.

jorge would know better as well as atchison, but i seriously doubt that guides in africa are letting clients take 150 yd. shots at cape buffalo. i am sure it is quite possible to get alot closer. and i really doubt that would want a client take that 150 yd. shot with iron sights. -keith

all have irons...dope

Depends on the client. I have friends who've taken them at over 200. With scopes. I took one at close to 80. jorge

jorge, you ask me what the sights on a Model 70 Safari are like, then say you own one that has iron sights.

Instead of playing word games, why don't you talk straight about the use of iron sights on DGR rifles?
If you don't use them, why do you have them on your rifle?

All these word games are like something from elementary school, by kids who couldn't discuss the subject, wanted to debate, but couldn't do that, either. Just talk about what you know, like a man.

For those who don't comprehend, I will spell it out:

In my opinion, if you can't hit a 6 inch spot 100% of the time offhand at 150 yards with iron sights, you need more practice before putting yourself in a position where you may HAVE to shoot. If you can do it, then a closer shot is that much easier.

If you haven't practiced on running game targets and running game, running away from you, at you, and to your left and right, then you really have no business putting yourself in a position where you may HAVE to shoot at running game.

My 2 cents. If you disagree, fine.
But state it plainly and politely, without the bluster and insults.

My God Man, get a clue.

You are off by 125 yards on the test.

At 150 yards, there is functionally ZERO chance of a charge.

Iron Sighted DG rifles are for STOPPING CHARGES at close range, not plinking grapefruits off some distant berm.

Further, this is a CLIENT rifle, the guide will have the stopping gun. The Client needs shot placement under Hunting Conditions, the Guide needs shot placement at Up CLose and Personal (i.e., Iron Sight) conditions.

Sheesh . . . . .

BMT

Doood . . . .

Its like the pot calling the Kettel-bell black.

BMT

Thanks for you armchair advice, BMT, but it sounds like a lack of experience and knowledge of shooting.

You seem to thinking about theoretical trajectory, not shooting skill.

The six inch target I referred to is not some input to your ballistics program, but an actual target a hunter must be able to hit every time offhand at 150 yards. At 50 yards, he needs to be able to hit 2 inches every time. The issue is not just shooting a charging animal, but shooting a wounded animal which is running away, or one which hold up and waiting for you, or one which is running past you as it charges another person when the hunting party is spread out.

If you are a poor shot, you can just wait until the animal closes the distance on you. Or, as some seem to prefer, depend upon your guide, hunting partners, or dumb luck to save you.

I don't go looking for you... BUT have you EVER answered my question as to what exactly you do for a living????

Yes, I have, several more times than I should have.

Post links, I don't have time to follow all the threads into infinity waiting days for your reply.

Soon as he does...PM me so I can check to see if any wild blue monkeys are flying out of my azz...

Ingwe

It seems like it would have been easier to me just to answer with your job title rather than a whole sentence that answered nothing. But that's just me.

You are welcome.



Ummm, no. I was considering real life hunting situations-- sloping ground, slippery footing, difficult conditions of light and wind. With Open sights, not Precision adjustable match grade Peep sights, regular express style open sights (or more likely, Ghost Ring" peep sights).



Why is that? An Elephant's brain is the size of a football, not a racquetball. A Buff's heart/shoulder is as big as a softball. What is so small and hard to hit that such precision is needed? In such cases, a coll head and knowledge of anatomy seems more important that a high level of precision.

And why must this be an Offhand (standing, unsupported) shot? Why cannot a hunter shoot from kneeling? Why not shoot from an improvised rest? On my last Hog hunt, I took a boar running from right to left at 80 yards. Even with the hog moving at a dead run, I had time to step left 4 paces and use a fencepost as a rest.



And this cannot be accomplished with a 2.5 power scope? Such scopes have proven very useful inside buildings in Iraq and other ares of the "Sandbox". Why won't they won't work in Africa on a huge animal?



Or you should practice more.



Or, you can just substitute Google for knowledge . . . . . . . .

BMT

I did NOT need that image . . . . .

BMT

Lee you are such a moron. Don't you realize that ANYTHING you say has ZERO credibility with me or anybody else for that matter? My initial post just made fun of your ownership of that ficticious Model 70 you have in that empty chamber of a brain pan s so it really had nothing to do with iron sights, just with your lying. But DO post a picture of that rifle Ace and maybe we'll stop the public embarrassment sessions. Naaaaaah. Oh and I love quoting myself jorge

uh??? sorry lee, nobody on the campfire takes your comments seriously and certainly not over jorge! i think i will trust a REAL veteran's input over your lying stories of AMU and Marine Sniper days at the range any day of the week! -keith

speaking of which, when are you going to post your military credentials? you have told us of your glory days with the AMU and the Marine Sniper program, how about providing some evidence instead of insulting the real veterans on the site? -keith

I explained the reasons behind my opinions, jorge.
You and some of the others just toss insults. Any kid off the street could have written your post. I am sure you can do better. Try again to explain why your rifles have iron sights, and when you plan to use them. Or are they just ornaments?

ohiohunter, I never did tell you "..of your glory days with the AMU and the Marine Sniper program..". That is either your lie, or one you heard from another troll. My shooting at Fort Benning has no relation to your inability to discuss this thread topic.

so you're now admitting you never shot on any AMU team? do you still claim you're in the guard and going to drill?

Actually, he is admitting that he never claimed any "glory" nor an "days" when he was with the AMU at Fort Benning in 1968.

You see, he did all his work with the AMU at Fort Benning, in 1968, at NIGHT. Therefore, there were no "days".

That is, after all, when the Sanitation Engineers are on duty.

BMT

Through the windows of the short bus that was travelling past Ft. Benning while the AMU was training that day a young boy heard the shots ringing out.........

Wasn't there a reference to wastewater in this thread also?
BTW I'm sticking to my story: I invented iron sights and silvertips

There will be an open match at FT Benning again in 2010, if you qualify to shoot. The practice might make you able to use the iron sights on your DGR rifle.

ME:
You seem to thinking about theoretical trajectory, not shooting skill.

BMT:
Ummm, no. I was considering real life hunting situations-- sloping ground, slippery footing, difficult conditions of light and wind. With Open sights, not Precision adjustable match grade Peep sights, regular express style open sights (or more likely, Ghost Ring" peep sights).

ANSWER:
I don't need anything but good open sights to hit a clay pigeon all day long offhand at 150 yards.
---------------------------
ME:
The six inch target I referred to is not some input to your ballistics program, but an actual target a hunter must be able to hit every time offhand at 150 yards. At 50 yards, he needs to be able to hit 2 inches every time.

BMT:
Why is that? An Elephant's brain is the size of a football, not a racquetball. A Buff's heart/shoulder is as big as a softball. What is so small and hard to hit that such precision is needed?

ANSWER:
The heart or brain of a wild boar, bear, lion or leopard is much only about 6 inches.

I also presume that anyone going after dangerous game would work their way up hunting small game, deer, black bear and feral hogs back home first. The heart is only 6 inches. If you can't hit that at 100 yards offhand, you can't hit a football at 150 yards.

That's why I question your experience.

I wouldn't need to qualify as I could just walk in and shoot based on my record.

Do it. Let us know what event.
Now, why are you unable to discuss this topic about iron sights?

What do you want to know about irons?

I am just curious why you avoid discussing the thread topic.
But, if you can't discuss that, talk about what you know about iron sights. There's nothing you can teach me about the subject, and I doubt you'll interest anyone else with your thread hijacking.

I'm interested....


Ingwe

Maybe you should start a thread so Mr Finn and others can teach you something. I will stop responding to your stupid posts, ginned-up phony photos and people like wrecker drivers you claim to be me, and name-calling, etc. I will only respond to those that are somewhat reasonable, like BMT's was half-way reasonable.

The rest of you are on ignore. I am through helping you punks hijack and stink up threads.

Well Mr. Muller what do you want to know about irons?

Lovin this....

Ingwe

Is this the internet version of "pregnant silence"....?

Ingwe

I am being honest with my question. I would like to know how you prefer to line up your target with your iron sights. I have heard of some that like to place their point of impact on top of the front post like a golf ball on a tee. Others like to put the point of impact where the front post "covers" the point of impact (I am talking about the round part at the top of the front post).

I have always done the latter, but I don't know if one is faster or more prone for accuracy than the other. It just seemed more of a natural way of doing it. Any thoughts?

If the front sight is a post, the point of aim at zero range should be the flat of the post. If the target were a bullseye, the top of the sight would be across the center of the bullseye.

If the front sight is a bead, the point of aim is through the center of the bead.

Not sure who you directed that to, but since I invented them I use the former opposed to the later, and not what he said above

I thought the thread topic was about irons and DGR's?

Can we switch to little black dresses now?

What an absolutely, absolutely wonderful thread. Sometimes I am in awe of the things I find on the internet.

First, if you can hit a clay all day with open sights at 150 yards freehand, I highly suggest you pickup a service rifle and compete, you'd win every match you shot in, including the national championships..

As to correct placement of a post front sight, there is none. You use what works for you. 6, line of white, flat tire, sub six, frame, center, navy etc.... I have zeros for all of those and use different ones at times... I often hold center, but in 2 positions only, and for prone I use only 6 or frame hold depending on distances and lighting conditions. Much like I change rear aperture size and my lense colors as the light dictates.

Now where is that reference link to your job?

And on topic again, what open in 2010, I haven't been to AMU Benning in a couple of years, I might think about going this year if you'll tell me where to register and what course of fire and dates. I have plenty of AMU shooters I can bum a room off of if I am not booked already for that weekend.

Or if you'll tell me what the match is I can get hold of Emil or Troy and figure out the rest for myself.

My answer was on the rifle iron sight pictures I use in hunting game.

Ingwe

I'd like to see you, or anyone else, accomplish your accuracy benchmark using that type of rifle.

It's not the iron sights, but to hit a 6" bull 100% of the time from 150 yds, is no small feat. Very few shooters using a bona fide big game hunting rifle can do that, regardless of sights.

I'd be willing to challenge anyone who thinks he can to a 100-shot match here. I can only name a dozen or so folks that can do that, and maybe none with a DGR, I don't care what sort of sights you have.

And I use the same variable sight pictures with game. My MZ for elk is currently 8 inches high at 100 yards, so that i can simply hold bottom of hair line and not cover up part of the target. I modify that for other occasions. Targets are not much different than game.

How about the contact info for Ft Benning? Like I said its been a few years since I"ve shot out there and it would be nice to visit some old friends and shoot again.

Iron sights are good. Late being better than never, I find Mule Deer's thoughts about fit of the gun being paramount for the DGR equation.

On the other discourse:



Recently rehabilitated bore and the original bottom of the ladder leaf and post. Nonetheless, they are capable of groups.



Now to tell the truth, I don't recall if it was 5 shots or 6. The question you gotta ask yourself; do you feel lucky? Well, do ya......?

Is it a 1" bull with a .22 LR or a 3" bull with a .62 caliber swivel breech flintlock? The truth is out there....

Shameless Dan

BrentD, if you think hitting a 6-inch spot at 150 yards or 100 yards is too difficult a standard, what is you standard for iron sights on game, and dangerous game with you on the ground?

What range and target size do you think is reasonable for a 99% reliable shot placement?

If someone can't meet your standard, should they put themselves in a hunting situation where they may HAVE to take a shot that they are unlikely to successfully make?

Hey , that's not to shabby,

Lee would better it, but you already knew that.

GTC

This is great,....first Barsness,.....

Now you're going to take on Danielson about shooting game with open sights.

You're REALLY special, aren't you ?

GTC

H-HAC might have done that for me @ 150 yards. Offhand. Using a mirror. In a 15 mph crosswind.

Question: If you use a mirror to sight while being charged by a rhino, are you facing the charge? Or what? Give me a hand here...

I have put my nuclear flash goggles on. Popcorn in the kettle too.

Sir,

It is my understanding that you are one of the top match shooters in the country. You mention several terms that I am not familiar with and I would like clarification. If you have time, please explain what a few of those terms mean like 6, line of white, etc.... Thank you in advance!

I haven't hunted much with open sights and I am really wanting to improve my shooting abilities. I am in the market for a nice .22 that is similar to my hunting rifles like a CZ or something. I feel that shoot a .22 will help plus it is a heck of a lot of fun.

I also intend on practicing with my regular rifles that have open sights along with a close buddy so that we can practice the "flinch drill." That is always an eye opener.

As an aside, I prefer open sights on all of my rifles. Not only for function, but also for the aesthetics. It makes them look more like the "rifleman's rifle" to me.

Crossfire, if you or BrentD, or whomever doesn't like my standards for hunting or my use of sights, please state yours.

How about I quit posting facts, experience, advice and opinions, and just ask simple questions? Simple questions seem to give the some of the "experts" here a lot of trouble.

How about starting to post proof of any claims made?

I am only ASKING questions about the topics from now on.

If the question was not addressed to you, or you can't answer the question like an adult, don't post a childish retort, because I will add you to my Ignore List. That works so well. The threads are much shorter without the adolescent chatter and soft-core porn.

So... ask.

cmg's dumb remark just put him on the Ignore List.

cmg,

now you went and did it! he may take all his expertise & authority and with him and not want to play anymore. heaven forbid he be expected to answer a direct question.......

I"m far from a top shooter, but lets just say when I was still really active around the early 2000 era, I could hold my own with an AR15 service rifle....

Sight pictures... I only use a flat top sight, I don't like round or bead fronts... just how I am. And its been fairly well proven that flat top and sides net better shot calls and placement.

That being said sub six is holding the post top under the white a fair amount. As much as a few scoring rings up to even half the buff under the bull. MOving up line of white is a thin sliver of buff showing under the bull, I almost shoot that.. I shoot what I call true 6, barely touching the black but since the bull is round a sliver of buff left and right of center under the bull. Then flat tire, push the sight up just barely into the black. Center hold is just that. Navy hold is covering up all or almost all of the black with the sight. Frame hold is holding same amount of buff left,right and above the blade... essentially covering up the complete aiming black. Thats how the terms have been described to me and I've used almost all of them at one time or another depending on sighting conditions and distances between 200 and 1000 yards.

The flinch drill is a really great drill, its called more correctly ball and dummy... dump 10 or 20 rounds in your pocket, half dummies, half live.... WOW is all you can say and its a drill I tried to shoot at least once a month to see if I'd developed a flinch or bad muscle tension.

And so we go, you've left, no contact info so I could shoot with/against you at Benning AMU in the spring or summer....typical if you ask me. Toss it out and then run... To be honest the way you shoot, I"m no threat to beating you but I'd love to shoot a match down that way and we could have had a burger and beer.....

Does anyone have any soft-core porn to complete this thread . . . . .

BMT

cmg; That rat bastid is still on line..watching...better tell me now how to get on his ignore list....

Ingwe

Post some degrading soft-core porn . . . . . .

"degrading" is a relative term.....

Ingwe

You relatives maybe, not mine . . . . .

I beg to differ. Words, mere words.

A counter to get him of balance and then a quick jab.

Knock out. Minutes later he posts his open letter.

I, meanwhile, are in counciling. Check the sniper thread for details.

Mine for shure...many are Irish....

Ingwe

These are lyrics learned over WAY to much Haig Pinch,

......written on bar napkins, in a place long ago,

....and far away.

Filthiest drinking song invented by man,....100+ verses.

All health , wealth, and good cheer to the Royal Canadian Black watch Troopers that taught me the few verses I remember.

On this solemn occasion, I'd like to read this one verse from "The Bull of Kerry Muir" over Lee24's bier.

" The village idiot he was there, and on the mantle he sat,
amusing himself by abusing himself , and catching it in his Hat"

Lee24, to a "T"

His departure calls up another verse, though:

" The village magician he was there, he held us all aghast,
he pulled his foreskin over his head, and vanished up his azz"

R.I.P., Lee.

GTC

I think you are being modest, but so be it.

Thank you again for the detailed explanation. Your description is very clear to me. I didn't know it was called the ball and dummy drill. I haven't tried it by myself and I don't have any dummy rounds. I guess I could make some. I always did it with a buddy and let him had me the rifle ready with or without a round.

It would be interesting to try it with a .22 and see if I flinch. Man, that would be embarrassing.

Lee, I throw out insults at you because it's fun to read how you respond and never answer direct questions regarding your non-existent weapons or credibility. So respond away, and we'll continue to insult you llike the village buffoon...jorge

yea! lee is putting people on ignore! does anybody really believe he is doing that? so, lee, you waste-of-a-life wannabe marine sniper, what do i have to say to get on the ignore list?

You know, I can only hope a guy in camp is after buffalo. Maybe I'll get to watch and if he gets gored over lack of open sights, I'll say--Toldja So!

But, I'm not cynical about this thread.

Stop, stop, it hurts my sides . . . . . . .

My kids are aking me why I am crying . . . . .

Too F'in funny . . . .

BMT

You can flinch with anything... trust me..... I found a horrible flinch after a long weekend of 3.5 inch 10 ga rounds one year... thought I had 3 in the gun but only 2... boy was "round" 3 an eyeopener... my buddy almost bust a gut and fell into the bay....

Wow, only got through a half of this thread...
For the record, I go ether way when it comes to sights, although I believe that a low powered scope is ideal for first shots on most game other than, say, Elephant super close up or follow up situations.
However what is best has little to do with it IMO.
Open sights are just great fun to hunt with, but you will miss opportunity's.

Ahh, those DG..

I'm in Ray's generation and grew up using irons. I wouldn't have a serious hunting rifle without irons. A deer rifle maybe but not any rifle for game that bits. I can't use them any longer due to macular degeneration but I can still see enough to hit something at 50-60 yards.with 2MOA accuracy.
As an aside, a buddy went to Texas hunting elk last year. One of his rifles had a good set of irons. He said he amazed the young guys shooting "minute of small rock" at 300 yds with irons.
They do work if you use 'em.

Irons work very well, its all I shot in competition.

That said there are so many reasons NOT to use irons unless they are the last option, and as a backup. I'll take glass every last time.

Hunting is entirely different from competition. In NRA or CMP Highpower competition, your target is a perfectly round black circle on a white background. The front sight post (usually) is the same apparent width as the black circle, and is sprayed with carbon black to eliminate the effects of sun angle. The rear sight is an aperture. The target (10 ring) is 6" wide at 200 yards (the black circle, the nine ring) is 13" wide). If you shoot bolt rifle instead of an AR, both the front and rear sights are adjustable apertures.

In hunting, "iron sights" mostly refers to open rear sights and a bead front. The front bead is bright, and often rounded. It's easy to make elevation errors by not putting the bead down in the rear sight the same way, or errors from how the sun shines on the front bead. The target is not a nice black circle and the aiming point is somewhat conceptual. The target is moving and, in case of a charge, is at least 6" in diameter at a range of 25 yards--or less.

In hunting, the issue is usually speed, not accuracy. Those who think iron sights are not good because they can't shoot small groups off the bench are deluding themselves.

Incidentally, I have shot 1" 5-shot groups off the bench at 200 yards with an iron-sighted AR15. But offhand, with a hunting rifle and open sights, 6" at 100 yards is more tha norm.

I posted but it didn't take so I'll try again...

I find it absurd that a good iron sight shooter couldn't make a killing shot on a buffalo at 200 or even 300 yards with his iron sights, just like he could with a scope..that is one big target btw...

I have shot many plainsgame and a few buffalo at 150 yds. to almost 200 yards with irons..I don't know who started the rumor that you always shoot buffalo at 25 yards thats just BS..Lots of buffalo are shot at extended ranges and no you can't always get closer..Few however are shot at over 150 but I have shot several at 200 and the furtherise was a stepped off 225.5 yards and that was my only instant in the dirt kill on buffalo. AJ Van Heerden PH, called him the Teapot bull, said he just tipped over on his nose like a teapot...:)

I am of the opinnion that a lot of these posts are by individuals that have actually never really tried irons and have made no effort to learn and are just talkin off the top of their head...I think they would be very surprised just how accurate iron sights can be if properly sighted in and with the right combo of front and rear..My preference is a V with a post that I take flush to the top of the V much like a pistol is used, its fast and accurate, every bit as good as a receiver sight...It is an old Texas Ranger trick, and thats why they were so deadly..

One other thing that comes to mind is for off hand shooting or running shots simply because one tends to grab at the trigger as the crosshairs come floating by the target with the damn magified wobble, so you yank the trigger in anticipation, and you miss. You cannot see this wiggle with irons. It works very well for me...An example of this I was at a big bore shoot in Oregon several years ago wherein I won 7 second places but no firsts shooting my iron sighted .375 against scoped rifles as I thought the whole shoot was iron sight only and had no scoped rifle to shoot. I was satisfied with that. I touched both of my shots on the running Lion at 100 yards, but an inch out of the 6 inch bull that was marked in with pencil and I couldn't even see it, but they were Lion killing shots...One of our posters here on 24 hr. and on AR was there, He has killed a large number of elephants with his iron sighted double rifles. Jim Brockman of Brockman Guns was there and Jim is an excellent iron sight shot. They both shoot very well indeed.

I am very comfortable with irons to 200 yards and beyond that would prefer a scope but wouldn't be totally anal about it..I would use what I had...

I suggest all the nay sayers, get out and have some fun, sight in there rifles just like they do with the scope, then practice a bit and add another deminsion to there shooting..Its fun guys, you will enjoy it, and be better for it.

I have already commented on this thread once, to the effect that if you haven't used irons much (or at all) that you're better off with a scope.

But if you have used irons, I'll go along with what Ray said. I have used irons in Africa out to about the same range he has--though on a red lechwe at 225 yards, not a buffalo. Have also shot some buffalo with irons out to 120 yards or so and they work. Have also used irons in North America on various species out to 350 yards (caribou) and am obviously comfortable with them. But if you aren't a scope is obviously better.

I do have back-up irons on some of my rifles but not all. If something goes wrong with the scope when you're a long way from a back-up scope then the day (or week) isn't lost. And I pretty much refuse to carry around a spare scope just in case it might be needed. Back-up irons are quite a bit handier!

JB, what do you find are the best setups for irons. Ray has described his setup as a v-notch with front post.

Do you have a favorite setup?

For dangerous game that's hard to beat.

I regularly use the same sort of set-up, but also a typical rounded notch with front bead, and an aperture rear with bead or post front. For most iron-sight hunting I like a white or gold front bead that's been filed flat at about a 45-degree angle away from the eye, but I am used to one and have found it helps for range estimation. It also shows up pretty

The big thing, as with any shooting, is to try a bunch of different stuff and see how it works for you.

You might like to consider a red fibre optic foresight as a good option. They make a helluva difference when you have to go into the thick stuff for an angry big 'n ugly.

You also need to get your sights set up properly. I'd highly recommend you set them to a six o clock hold as the best option.

I agree with both Mule Deer and Shakari, and I like both of their set ups with irons..I also like the peep/receicer sights as they are fast and accurate..I can't imagine a better set up than a fiber optic green or red 3/32 bead and an adjustable receiver sight, or a fixed steel peep with a .125 hole to look through. Irons are so basic that most any of them work well enough, so try some and take your pick. I don't like those huge front beads that pop up, they just cover too much animal to suit me and they are not very accurate because of that, and I feel they are too much of a good thing, dramatically overdone..I like the 3/32 bead or the NECG gold faced post and those Fiber Optics if you can find one that fits your front sight, and that can be a problem sometimes. Hopefully they will become popular enough to give us more choices in size etc.

My issue with irons comes from where I hunt. Often in thickets, while killing a deer quickly with them is not an issue, often identifying the correct deer and or not seeing vines etc.. in the way is the issue.

I used a 0 power dot one year and had a bad mistake never seeing brush between us. And I've had deer indentified with binocs switch places on me as they mill around such that I could not tell the difference unless going back to binocs again.

Those 2 issues lean me to scopes even though I can shoot irons on game just fine and have done so quite a bit, even out to past 500 yards with irons on deer.

Its not just the fact that you can or cannot use them.

As to speed, I've never had any speed issues getting on something with a scope as long as the gun and scope are set up correctly. Certainly no more difficult or any slower than irons.

The comments on seeing wobble vs not, well thats a mental game that can be overcome easily if folks put any effort into it.

Jeff

The only problem with fiber-optic sights is that some of them aren't too rugged, though that is much less common than it used to be.

One really fiber-optic iron sight is the NECG express sights that have both a fiber-optics fron bead and also a fiber-optic dot in the middle of the rear express sight. Even in dim light it's really easy to be be able to aim with them: just put the front bead on top of the rear bead. I had D'Arcy Echols put s set of these on my .375 H&H and really like 'em.

D'Arcy Echols installs what I think are the best irons out there, a see through "V" arrangement combined with fiberoptics that appear to be bomb-proof. Tried them a few years ago on one of his legends and they were perfect. Maybe John55 will chime in, he has a set on his Echols. jorge

FWIW, my rifles get a pretty hard time of it (not so much nowadays though) and the fibre optic foresights usually last a couple of years..... and I keep a spare in the stock of my rifle.

They only take a minute to change over.

Jorge,

Those are the sights on my .375. NECG makes 'em. D'Arcy showed them to me a few years ago, I believe when they first came out, so I sent him .375 to put 'em on. He was nice enough to install the rear sight far enough forward that I can even kinda see it....

I first went to Africa almost 40 years ago, when the choice of dangerous game rifles was far smaller than it is now. There were plenty of DG rifles around in Africa and elsewhere, but very little ammunition, nor any prospect of any more being produced. Kynoch had ceased production of all African cartridges and was selling just what it had in stock. For this reason, it made sense to use a rifle which shot available ammunition.

In my case, my promary DG rifle was a much modified P14 Enfield chambered for the .460 Weatherby case, shortened to 2.5" and necked up to .505". 90 grains of 4064 propelled a 570 grain Kynoch bullet at 2150 fps, just like the .500 NE.

This rifle was equipped with a Lyman 48 rear sight with target knobs and a Williams ramp with a Redfield sourdough front sight.

My second rifle was my Krieghoff O/U .458 Wincheser Magnum double rifle, with interchangeable barrels in .375 H&H Magnum and 20 gauge/3" Magnum. The rifle barrels had shallow vee express sights and 2 1/2X and 3X scopes respectively, fitted with claw mounts.

My third rifle was a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in .300 H&H caliber with the standard Winchester open sights and a 4X scope in Weaver mounts.

Over the years I have taken around 90 head of African game with that battery, including a black rhino, four elephants, five Cape buffalo, lion, leopard, eland , greater and lesser kudu, brindled wildebeest, warthog, waterbuck (both common and DeFassa), oryx (both common and fringe eared), sable, bushbuck, impala, Grants, Roberts, and Thomson's gazelle, gerenuk and klipspringer.

Once, while hunting on fenced in private land, I had the opportunity to shoot up a pack of Cape hunting dogs, who were just finishing a meal. I killed four dogs with five shots, only the first one being a stationary target, with my .300 H&H.

Part of my success in the hunting field was due to my experience as a Marine Corps team shooter, which made me intimately familiar with the workings of the aperture receiver sight, but much more was due to constant practice, which enables me even today to pick up a rifle, scoped or otherwise, select a small object (doorknob or light switch) across the room, then mount the rifle and find my front sight or crosshairs centered on what I was looking at.

I followed this up with hours of practice in the field, using reduced charge lead bullet loads and shooting at targets of opportunity: fence posts, trees, rocks, as I walked around my farm.

This comes from hours of dry firing with an empty rifle, from hours spent on the skeet field, shooting from the low gun position, and from having rifles stocked to fit me perform that very feat.

My Krieghoff was stocked using the measurements I obtained from shooting a try-gun at the Holland & Holland shooting school. My bolt gun much the same.

I tried shoting skeet with my Krieghoff .458, using .410 shells, which bulged badly, but otherwise worked quite well. I found I could hit both with and without the scope.

I used my scope mounted .458 for one elephant and one buffalo. The buffalo was 100 yards away, in the middle of an open field, almost like a pasture, and staring directly at me. There was no way I could get closer, so I assumed a steady sitting position and downed him with one shot through the chest.

The elephant was perhaps 40 yards away, hidden, all but his head, behind a large bush. He had his head tilted back, reaching for a high branch on a tree when I shot him, using the scope. The shot missed the brain, but knocked him down, where it took several more shots to prevent his arising again, all the time keeping a lookout for his companion (askari), a young bull which was accompanying him and was making a dreadful racket and trying to locate us.

Otherwise, my shots on elephant and buffalo have all been with iron sights, and I have to say that such sights discourage the shooter from merely shooting "into the brown", which with either an elephant or a rhino, let alone a buffalo, can have most unpleasant consequences.

My conclusion is that the kind of sight used is not as important as being totally familiar and at ease with the rifle you intend to use. My PH told me of a magnificent kudu and a "super" leopard an acquaintance of mine had missed BECAUSE HE COULDN'T LOCATE THEM IN THE SCOPE. This is the kind of thing which leads PH's to an early grave.

My recommendation: pick whatever sight you're most comfortable with, make sure you have an alternative or backup sight, then practice, practice, practice.

I think some folks, probably folks that have not shot a buffalo at 5 or 10 feet, forget that the scope will place the bullet too high at that crucial point in your life and may very well end up in your demise...

I first noticed this as a youngster when I tried to put the coup de grace in some deer and kept missing the spine or shooting a horn off, or missing the whole damn deer at 5 yards. Remember the scope plane and the muzzle plane are a couple of inches off up real close...irons are not and you besides can point shoot an iron sighted rifle very easily, but not so a scoped rifle..I have never aimed persay at a close charging animal, I have always just point shot him and to date I am still on this side of the dirt! What better option can beat that.:)

Shakari,

Why the six o clock hold vs. pointing directly at the intended point of impact?

Because it allows you to see more of the animal as it's coming for you.

The more you can see of what's going on at those moments, the better.

Sharari,

Where does you POI lie compared with the top of you bead or blade at, say, 25yds or 50yds.

Oviously, a six o'clock hold for a buff heart using the bottom of the chest won't work for an impala or an elephant ... So trying to visualize what your using.

Personally, I like POI to be right at the top of the filed bead at 50yds. POI it isn't different at 25yds. And really, drop isn't too much at even 100yds.

JPK

Either way suits me fine..but I prefer the POI to be about and inch or two high at 50 yards, it will also be the same at 100 yds. All my guns are set up this way. At point blank you can still hold dead on anyway as it won't be high at under 25 anyway. BTW, always KNOW your POI at 10, 15, 25 and 50..just to be sure. Shoot your gun at those ranges before you go hunting for DG..

There are two schools of thought, some want the bead to cover the POI, some want it on top or over of the bead...

Either one suits me just fine as long as I know how its impacting, and I will know that in every case with any rifle.

I suppose I should add that in my case I will point shoot at under 25 yards and will not use the sights..It's very natural to me and I have been shooting instinctively for many years both in practice and in the field, but only at shorter ranges. I practice up to 50 yards..You can become quite accurate at short ranges shooting instinctively..I still know where my sights shoot however, I may want to shoot the head off a Tanzania chicken!