Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Dust up over the M4 at the battle of Wanat

That white hot steel has to be rough on those aluminum receivers too....

MGySgt,

You know that reporter told it straight....

It's a wonder she didn't report that someone broke a nail.

Was it hell? I'll bet it was. Is the weapon to blame? I'll bet it's not.

The author's words. The soldier said it was "overheating" and he couldn't put another round in. He got "mad" and threw it down. He says he had fired 12 mags in a half hour. Withering fire from AK 47's and RPG's kept them down and and he and another would pop up and fire a "half dozen" and get down again. The other troop with him was killed. Another put his M4 down only to find a machine gun that wouldn't fire.

It's a disjointed article.

I would say some hysterical crying and violent, uncontrollable shaking at that point. "Mad" controlled anger is good. It's better than the other.

I know that's a dang big country. Are our outposts so far out in the boonies that we can't get the gunships to them within 20 minutes?

I'm not trying to disparage anyone in that fight. I know it was a rough deal.

It's just kinda crazy some of the things that are reported regarding the weapons.

I've seen M16A1s fired in full auto bursts going through several magazines in 30 minutes. We were runnin' and gunnin' through live-fire courses down in El Salvador. The M16A1's got so hot we could barely hold on to them without gloves. The barrels began smoking as the LSA on them began to burn from the heat. After a point they stopped smoking because all the lube was burnt off, leaving a thin white-ish redisue on the metal, I think it was essentially ash from the burnt off lube, but they were not "white hot".

You convinced me. You know anything about the gunship question above?

No I'm too far out of the loop to know the answer to that.

I was reading an account of a battle in A-stan recently though where air was over an hour away, and artillery was denied due to concerns over collateral damage. That's BS. If you (pres.) aren't ready/willing to accept collateral damage, it's time to come home. Putting the troops out there without timely supporting fires is derelict at best, and causes unnecesary loss of our best and brightest......GRRRR, I don't even want to get started.

It's kind a what I thought, too.

plus 1

Please don't let me get started on this..... Either fight the war or come home. War is by definition the abandonment of morality. Once the shooting starts you have to do every thing to win and win as fast as possible. Yep there is going to be lots and lots of horror and death and there is no fairness or justice involved. There is either winning or losing and if we are not willing to do the horrible things that it takes to win then we will lose. If we can't face that then we have NO RIGHT to ask these brave selfless young men to pay the penalty for our squeamishness and dithering. Rant off... I hope.

The bottom line here is the m16 was jamming in in combat in 1969 and is still jamming in combat in 2009.

First off- Hello and this is not totally directed to or at you.

I've carried the M-4 for the last 4 plus years. I've used it more than most, less than some. At the moment I'm on a team of mostly SF vets and a couple Rangers.
We are armed with an AMD 65 and TO A MAN, prefer the M-4 for its reliability, accuracy and stopping ability.

Since I have been deployed I have went through thousands of rounds in my M-4 before I had a jam. I was headed out the wire and the magazine that I had been using caused a double feed. I assume it was at the end of it's life, having been used for a year plus deployment. I cleared it, junked the mag and went back to work.
Thats been the total of my problems with the system.

About the AK lovefest here, you ever try to reload an AK when it needed to be done,right now? It aint an easy thing to do quick, even on a range with no one shooting back. They are decently accurate and work well for someone with a tiny amount of training, but if it's up to me, I'll take the M-4 any day.

I see SF alot . If I told you what they are carrying, you wouldn't believe it.

Last year in Helmand and Kandahar the ODA I worked around where using worked up M4's. A few quick brush ups every few hundered rounds on the carrier group will get you a 1000 rounds or more before you need a serious cleaning. The ANA I lived with (in mud huts) had plenty of problems with their AK's. Their concept of logistics is bring it to the Americans to fix. Most of the time it just need a basic cleaning and some lube. Just like the M4s. I was in country when the PB was overrun in Wanat. I find it hard to believe after firing a minimum of a few hundered rounds before deployement (probably a lot more) the weapons first malfunction showed up during the battle. Maybe I'm wrong, Murphy is a SOB.

In regards to all these Blogs about weapons failures at Wanat, I see a lot of speculation, blame and focus on the Weapons "ONLY". Cubbisons report was different and balance, although incomplete. Yes, there were testimonial from the guys out there, of issues with the weapons during the contact. It was difficult, if not, impossible to inspect closely at the weapons, before assuming it had malfunction, during the engagement. See my comments below, posted on various Blogs.
Also...

I've been in contact with Mr Douglas Cubbison for some time now (In regards to the Battle Of Wanat). As A member of TF Rock 2-503BN, I shared some notes of interest, that I have yet to see on any report, blog or even the Army 15-6.

Here is what I posted;

I was with the 2/503rd TF Rock for those 15 Months in Afghanistan. I knew and work with some of the fallen Heroes at Wanat. The issues with all the weapons in OEF, not just M4s, was mostly Maintenance, lubrication and trying to keep them clean. Another big issues we had were the Magazines. TF Rock had well over 800 direct engagements in those 15 month, and as far as I can remember, there were no reports of major / multiple weapons failures during engagements prior to the Battle of Wanat. The main thing about the weapons at Wanat was, they got direct hit by the enemy from the start of the engagement. I can vouch for that, I hand carry at least 10 of the damage weapons from Wanat to Bagram (SAC-C) to get exchange for new ones. There were damage M14, M249, M4, M203s. Larger weapons like MK19 and .50cal were also damage, but repair parts sent days later to be repair at the near large FOB Blessing. Some M240B got also direct hit, but were still operational.
There were many things that went wrong at Wanat, not just weapons failures.

Sam Rod

Saw your post, and I'm very curious - what are the SF folks carrying? PM me if you wish.

Razerback,



ODA=SF A team

Rogue,

Thanks for the response. To ask the next logical question - what kind of optics were they using on their M4s?

Check your inbox

Whats the big secret? Last time I saw SF shooting they were doing a workup with AKs for a deployment in an aligned country that issued AKs. Time before that, M4A1s.