Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire Just War Theology

An excerpt from the link above:

Vengeance belongs to God, and it often comes through the government. The government has been given a function which has been explicitly forbidden to the Christian.

It wasn't until Augustine addressed the subject around 400 A.D. that Christians realized sometimes the way to peace required taking the road to war. Augustine said, "Peace is not sought in order to provide war, but war is waged in order to attain peace." And with that, Augustine began laying the foundation for what we know today as the principles for Just War, which states:

1. JUST WAR can only be waged by legitimate authorities.
2. JUST WAR must exhaust all non-violent options first.
3. JUST WAR must have a reasonable chance to succeed.
4. JUST WAR must be fought with right intentions.
5. JUST WAR must discriminate between combative enemies and non-combative civilians (Death of civilians is considered justifiable only if unavoidable).
6. JUST WAR's ultimate goal should be to re-establish peace.
Augustine's rationale for war was nothing new. It was simply an elaboration of what the Bible had said all along, and what Christians had missed for 400 years. Our rulers are God's servants (agents of wrath) who have a responsibility to punish wrongdoers. Our government has a responsibility to administer justice.

I would really like to explore this subject if anyone else is interested. The theology of war has always seemed profane to me in the past. But it seems to me that in times such as these you HAVE to think it through in detail.

In the history of the Church it seems that only two groups have articulated a War-Theology, The Catholics via Augustine and Aquinas and the Calvinists and their many theological "children".

There is a lot on it out there. But it should always come back to a rather simple and clear understanding of bare naked scripture.

In any case I enjoyed reading the above link.

Recently my Sunday school class had a lesson on war. I do not remember any of the references but I do remember most of whatour teach said.

She said that war should be conducted for RIGHTEOUS porposes only.
Such as protecting your freedoms, families, ect.

And that under no sercumstance should killing another become enjoyable. It should be out of neccessity, not from a want to kill.

I'm not sure you really need a war theology. You need to decide what Scripture's position is on self defense, and that pretty much covers it. I suspect that it's not of much profit to apply the war history of the Israelites to the US today: first, we are not the chosen people of God; second, it should be obvious to all and sundry that we are not being led by God as the Israelites were when they invaded Canaan. (They didn't even have a king at the time.)



Can anyone come up with an example from Scripture of a Gentile nation being led to war by God other than specifically against Israel as punishment for Israel's sins? If not, we should take another look at what tended to happen to most of those nations (read the book of Nachum, for example--it's nice and short) after they had subdued Israel, and consider again whether we really want or need a War Theology.



As for the theology of government, I think that's pretty clear: government is a curse, pronounced as a result of Israel's sin in I Samuel 8. It makes me almost physically ill to see these Berean folks describe it as a blessing and a gift. Agh. It's as if it would be if they represented the beauty of the Garden of Eden as a dark, brutal, primitive time, and waxed beatific about the wonderful blessings that we have now as a result of the Fall of Man in Genesis 3.



But if you've weaseled your way to the top of a human government through treachery, deceit, and corruption, and you'd like to use your power to threaten death and destruction to force the people you rule to invade other people's property and kill them and steal their stuff for you, then I suppose a Theology of Just War could be pretty useful--up until the time you are brought to account for it, of course. But until then it could produce a lot of power, money, fame, and influence for you.

Spot on Barak....

Hey...maybe you remember having discussion with me before. I'll have you know that I just voted the Libertarian Primary ballot in WA, and I frequently represent/defend the Libertarian view point over at AR Political.

Think you started something.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Interesting post, Barak.


I pretty much agree with that. I would suggest that since war is always much more complicated than we anticipate, determining how Scripture views lots of other topics would be advisable. Topics like mercy, justice, vengence, etc. But I agree totally that "theology" of war is unnecessary. I think "theology" is the churches way of defining, often selectively and imprecisely, scripture for it's unlearned and uninspired to learn, flock.


I don't agree with that at all. Romans 11 tells us rather concisely that we are grafted in to the tree of the Chosen ones of God, Judism, and are partakers with them of the richness of His Promises. This is a mystery of God's plan that many Christains for centuries have rejected (I'm not saying you do or don't) because it would have required they give the Jew their just place in the Kingdom. That certainly has not been the Jews experience these last couple milienea.

As for govenment, I also agree with you that is is clear that God never wished for His people to have any authority over them save Him. However, since He picked a stiff necked people for His own, we all know they persisted in their desire to be ruled as were other nations. In doing so, they were rejecting God as their earthly ruler, as they had done so in one way or other, many other times. With Saul came the fate of the world to be ruled on earth by men, including the Jews and those of the adoption into the promise, the Christians. Also, subsequent to Saul came the definitions by God of the roles and relationships of govenment, the people under that government and God. That being true, to reject government is to reject God's judgement and direction: it may provide some stimulation or perceived satisfaction, but it is definitely kicking against the goads.

The above is a quote from the link. I would have to take exception to this position.

When I was a new Christian I was reading from the Book of Acts. Donna, our youngest, cried out in pain. Before I could even move to put the Bible down and go check on her I knew her foot was injured. When I got to her, hew foot was injured. Obvioulsly I recieved a revelation.

While at work one day a fellow asked if I would pray with him. Instantly I was informed, "Just say 'yes' he doesn't mean now." I said yes. Later he came to my house and asked me to pray with him. God still gives revelation.

"I'm not sure you really need a war theology. You need to decide what Scripture's position is on self defense, and that pretty much covers it. "

I read your post the other day and got to thinking on it.

I don't think I know of even one New Testament verse affirming self defense. I am not saying it denies it either.

The Romans 13 passage seems to me to be the only definitive New Testament verse on war/violence/ righteous-sword.

And interestingly it really only implies self defense, the context is righteous wrath, God's wrath, righteous-revenge, vengeance, punishment of the wicked.


Comments?.............

Christ taught his disciples a simple prayer when he was asked to teach them to pray..
In it is the supplication:

deliver us from evil.

For most, that is seen as a prayer asking that the disciple be delivered from 'receiving' evil done him..

I believe it connotes far more.
It is a heartfelt prayer that God, by his Holy Spirit in us and his word hidden in our hearts and asking in the Name of Jesus,avoid the doing of evil..Avoid supporting evil, condoneing evil, turning a blind eye to evil, and even the appearance of evil in our lives.

James wrote:
From whence come wars and fighting among you?..


He then tells the origins of such things which mankind has wrestled with since the fall..
The ten commandments covered them well:
thou shalt not
lie, covet, bear false witness, steal,murder..
Thankfully, while that law and commandments showed all men how weak and unable to live righteously they were under that imperfect covenant, under the new covenant in Christ we have the potential to NOT do any of those things a normal way of life..He works in us to both will and do His good pleasure..

Christians are designed to become new creations and to receive power to live in Christ, walk in the Spirit and no longer do those things that mankind has done so wrongly for centuries..

Jesus said:
The servant is not greater than his master...

read the rest and you will then know that as we follow Him, we may be persecuted, imprisoned or even killed for adherence to the faith that we partake of that was first delivered to the disciples.

Concerning governments being ordained of God..one could just as well claim that the most evil of the world's enemies were ordained of God..yet we KNOW who ordains and empowers the despots..and it is not God nor His Son Jesus Christ..

You have possibly seen the small tokens worn by believers to remind them that they are following Christ:

"WWJD"
That doesn't stand for "who would jesus destroy.."
Christians who use the passage in Romans to assuage their consciences in support of wars are wresting the scriptures to destruction.

Likewise those who use the old testament examples of war are mislead and have not yet known Christ..
We live under a new covenant..and we are supposed to be new creations in Him..

Remember this:There is no temptation(trial) given us but such as is common to man..

God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able..but with the temptation will make a WAY of escape that ye be able to bear it..
Christ is always the WAY..

apologies for a somewhat rambling post..jim

jim in oregon

Excellent Post.

You make very good strong biblical points. I would not argue with any of them, and I had forgotten that one in James about wars.

Still nonetheless what is your positive application of Romans 13?

He beareth not the sword in vain...He is a minister of God. A revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Obviously the one who bears the sword in this context is the agent of the "powers that be" or "rulers"

Can Christians hold the office of "powers that be", "rulers" or their agents that bear the sword?

The Anbabaptists say NEVER!, but I am not so sure.

John the Baptist in his face to face encounters with soldiers never told them to repent of soldiering
Jesus in his face to face encounters with soldiers and officers never told them to repent of soldiering
Peter, during his encounter with Cornelius never told him to repent of soldiering...

I welcome all rebuttal and comments!!! Thanks Jim for posting and continuing the conversation in a thoughtful manner.

I wrestle with these verses constantly in my mind. I am a veteran but I take the sermon on the mount very seriously. I have some Anabaptist friends and we discuss this from time to time. I will never deny that their position is strong. But I think they may be wrong.

DixieFreedom,
There are some who would say that the rulers of the times when the various translations were done( King James for ex) influenced that particular passage to encourage the masses to view the 'rulers' as their god-ordained sovereigns..

I have done some searching of the Aramaic roots of our NT and am not enough of a language scholar to verify that.

Moreover,, IF one believes that the scripture translations were intentionally 'manpulated' even in ONE passage, then the whole translation would perhaps be suspect.
Thankfully, we are not just scholars but have the Holy Spirit to enable us to understand so we can know how we are to live in Him..

Moving on:
I think the key is not to take that single NT scripture and try to build a doctrine of just war or god-ordained governments but Rather, to read of the person and work of our Savior and seek the fullness of His Holy Spirit in prayer so that as a Christian, we appear as He would as it pertains to life..
Then the believer can have the assurance that he will not be lead astray of the truth, or by any other entity who would deceive us.

When asked a trick question by the religious leaders "SHOW US THE FATHER.."
Jesus said:

"IF you have seen me(comprehended me, my work and why I am here, how I feel about life) you have seen the Father.."

They took up stones to kill him right there and then as he made it clear that He was in perfect accord with the YAHWEH of Judah..that spooked 'em bad..for they knew that they were far from the Yahweh they supposedly were serving..

Jesus spent alot of time healing, casting out devils, ministering, comforting, teaching and preparing the people for His sacrifice..
In short, he demonstrated a ministry of destroying and confounding satan's works every opposrtunity that the Father gave him.

Considering Christ's ministry, bear in mind that his ministry and sacrifice was first and foremost to the Jews..
After they rejected Him as a people, that opened the door for that great gift to be received by all, jew and gentile alike.

I recall one of his statements to a soldier:
Do violence to no man and be content with your wages...

In another instance, he marveled at the faith of a gentile soldier who said that he didn't need to personally come to heal but just 'speak the word'..

I am not a pacifist per se.I believe we have the right to defend ourselves individually and as a nation.
I also know that our weapons are not carnal, but mighty thru God...

I do believe that about 99% of the violence among individuals or among nations might be averted IF Christian believers sought peace and reconciliation rather than what we customarily see or get duped into by greedy or unregenerate men.Yes we are sorely outnumbered, but I think we could be a bit more 'salty' at times to help preserve things..:)

Having reconciled the believer to himself thru his son and our savior, God has given US that same ministry of reconciliation.

Forgiveness, patience, meekness, love, joy ,temperence..the fruit of those who are filled and immerxsed in His Holy Spirit.

Can we expect wars to cease?
Jesus indicated that such things would go on up to His coming.
I do think that our best homeland security should rely first on our own right abiding in Him and then on prayer that has a voice and feet to demonstrate Christ..

I enjoy Psalm 91 for it speaks of the 'secret place of the most high'..
That secret place is to dwell in Christ Jesus and not to trust in our own 'arm of flesh'...either as christian individuals or as the body of Christ.
I have no illusions that America is a 'Christian nation' for the vast majority are not His..jim

This is a short article by Sam Clemens..aka Mark twain, who was and ardent opposer of war.Written during the Civil War era..when men were fervent about following flags and propaganda that lead to killing..
Over 100 years later, little seems to have changed.
Take a moment to read this and reflect on the life that we as followers of Christ have been called to..
Our country will soon enough be incited to another war..
I still believe that there is a far better Way and it isn't thru military superiority...jim

The War Prayer
by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came-next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material dreams-visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender!-then home from the war, bronzed heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory!

With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation --

"God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language.
The burden of its supplication was that an ever--merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there, waiting.


With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal,

"Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said

"I come from the Throne-bearing a message from Almighty God!"
The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention.
"He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import-that is to say, its full import.
For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of-except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer?
No, it is two- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken.
Ponder this-keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer-the uttered part of it.

I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it-that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly?

God grant that it was so! You heard these words:

'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory-must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words.
Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle-be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe.
O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause)

"Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak!

The messenger of the Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

Jim.

The article by Mark Twain is rediculous. It is his concept rather the prayer of the believers. He was not a believer. Since he was not, he cannot comprehend a Christian's compassion for the enemy soldier. He wrote once he was very sorry to have destroyed his wife'w faith.

Given that I hang around with a lot of Jews, I find that it's more informative not to confine myself to the New Testament, but to use the Tanakh as well. Given all of Scripture, and the frequently incisive commentary provided by the Mishnah and the Talmud, I personally believe there is an extremely strong basis for Scriptural support of self defense. If you don't, fine: that's your choice, and I'm not going to argue about it unless you want me to, because it should be your choice.

But Romans 13 isn't really about self defense: it's frequently used as an argument that good Christians should in all things submit to civil governmental authority--that all human government is begotten and ordained of God and Christians should recognize the authority of God in whatever it says.

In other words, it's used as an argument against the sort of anarchism to which, as you all probably know, I subscribe.

But (of course) I think that's a misinterpretation of it. For one thing, in (many) other places God very clearly expresses his dislike of and displeasure with civil governments. I'm sure you can think of a number of examples of this yourself, but in case you're drawing a blank, you can start with I Samuel 8 and pretty much the entire book of Hosea. For another thing, if that's what Paul meant, then he's one of the biggest hypocrites in Scripture: he was constantly rebelling against governmental authority and being punished and imprisoned for it. In the end, he had his head hacked off for it. As a matter of fact, so was Jesus. Jesus was born in rebellion to government, and he died in rebellion to government, and he managed to get a fair amount of rebellion to government in in the middle as well.

No, I think that unless you're willing to accept the yawning inconsistency between the words of Jesus and Paul on the one hand and their actions on the other that results if you interpret them as putting civil government on the throne and commanding obedience and submission to it, and unless you're willing to ignore most of the Old Testament (that might be pretty easy for many Christians), you have to look for a different interpretation of Romans 13.

Part of the curse in Genesis 3 was pain in childbirth and toil in cultivation. There may be some people that think therefore that anesthetic for childbirth and tractors for farming are immoral, because they attempt to circumvent the curse of God, and a real Christian ought to wallow and luxuriate in God's curses in order to benefit from their full effect rather than "rebelling against God" by trying to avoid them. Such people would have the same objection in principle to anarchists' attempts to instill independence in people, because it's an attempt to circumvent the curse in I Sam 8. But I'm afraid I have little use for them or their objections. Sorry.

Luke 22:36

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Do you think that Jesus did not know that Peter carried a sword?

It is obvious that Jesus not only believed in self defense but that he endorsed it and reminded us that nothing in the Old Testament was to be changed which included the right of self defense.

A heavy burden indeed.

Concerning Mark Twain, as I recall when the Lord's prophets could not be reached, He caused Balaam's Ass to speak to get his message across.
Regardless of Twain's faith or lack of, the message is worth considering.

Concerning wars and fighting or using 'carnal weapons' for defense, I still think that the believer who abides in Christ has many more acceptable options to pursue before resorting to such things.

I also think that even the 'compassionate Christian warrior' can be exposed to grave dangers when he resorts to using carnal weapons as he then enters a realm that the enemy OWNS and will be playing a dangerous game by the enemy's rules..

As believers, ask WHICH is the more powerful weapon of defense:

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man( or woman) (our righteousness is all in and of Christ)


OR
the CCW we may have & carry or the military poised with all manner of destructive capabilities?

Like Barak, I am seldom comfortable with human governments and the issues they embroil the whole populace in.
While there may be devout believers in governments(and should be) the overall complexion of human governments is very much OF the world ( IE: not serving Yahweh or His Son and our savior Yahshua Messiah..

The believer cannot simply 'drop out' for we are admonished to remain IN the world yet not OF it..

That is tough to do, but IF Christ has told us that such is our task as 'the salt of the earth', then He will surely give us the ability and wisdom to do it well..yet keep us from being entangled in the evil being done..jim

jio, Barak

Well

I would like very much to lean in you'alls direction and generally I do as a Christian, (ie war ain't good) and most govts is corrupt.

But what do you fellows do with the American Revolution? I think God's providence did weigh in on that one.

And what of WW2 and at the very least the liberation of the concentration camps and gas chambers?

And what about putting an end to Jap atrocities like the rape of Nanking?

And what about Constantine, his vision of the cross and his subsequent military victories and his ending of the persecutions?

And what about the Spanish Armada being destroyed by a providential wind allowing the Protestants to mature to manhood in the world?

My conscience is inclined to bend towards the Mennonites. Their plain reading of the gospels is my speed. I think they will have a "safer" place on judgement day. But what if you had been a Christian German and they were burning Jews down the street from your house and you did absolutely nothing to stop it? How will that play out on judgment day?

DixieFreedom..It is difficult to read the histories of man's conflicts and come to any conclusion about just war..at least for me.
For what it is worth, those who orchestrated wars on all sides did not have a preponderence of Christian leaders or participants, and so the perspective is skewed with all the subtle failings of mankind as well as the devices of satan.

There is no question that even the small 'leavening' that true Christian people have had in those affairs is all of God, who is the Creator of life.
It also seems that He and His true followers are the ones who show compassion, mercy, healing, reconciliation even when the worst is being done in the world.

So mankind has a display of His love and wisdom that is evident to any ( who are aware) that the Creator of life can bring something good out of the most horrific world events.

Does there NEED to be great evil done to manifest great good?
I don't think the latter is dependant on the former..but while this presnt cosmos is under the control of the 'god of this world', that seems to be the pattern..jim