Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Any Kit Builders In The House?

Anybody here with pertinent experience, observations, or opinions?

I'm going to take the plunge on at least one rifle project this winter, starting with a .32 in something like a Pennsylvania style. Depending on how that goes I'll probably follow-up with a .54.

Figuring on percussion, though a slight breeze could sway me to a flintlock.

Willing to pay for quality - I got burned on a Traditions 36/50 combo kit many years ago.

Fairly new to kits, not new to using tools and working with my hands. Not an accomplished woodworker, though I have refinished a stock or two and glass bedded a few rifles successfully. Only stuck one, slightly.....

I've got a little reading to do but I will probably take the easy way out on the first and not do the drum and plug fitting, etc... Maybe.

Not new to muzzleloaders at all. I've had them from .32 to .50, both traditional and in-line. The 2nd greatest mistake in my life was selling my .32 Cherokee. Before you ask, the greatest was blond....

Specifically, scoop on:

Pedersoli kits?
Track of the Wolf kits?

Thanks in advance.

yep i do , as well as customs .
what would you like to know , ill do my best to answer your questions .

but the first thing i would tell you is that
Pedersoli sells Kits .
track of the wolf sells parts assemblies
Two completely different things even if you pay them to do the inletting , install the bolster , cut the dove tails , install the under lugs , drilling fees and such ��..
They are NOT kits like the Pedersoli , lyman , traditions , CVA TC and such .
If that�s what your looking for then you need whats called a gun in the white

Track of the Wolf parts sets are top quality. If one has even a modicum of experience with hand tools a decent gun can be assembled at home. Work slow and ask questions if you don't understand. Have them do all of the milling and drilling, it's money well spent. I would also reccomend the book "Recreating the American Longrifle" by Buchele, Shumway, and Alexander. It was my guide when I built my first ML (half-stock percussion) many years ago, and I still use it. Good info presented in an easy to understand manner, with good illustrations. I would get the book, read it, and then set about ordering your parts.

The commercial kits (guns in the white) offer little challenge and merely represent exersizes in finishing. Taking it up a notch, while making for a tougher job, will yield infinitely higher levels of pride in the finished product.

Thanks for the responses and shame on me for over-using the term "kits". I'm not all that fine tuned on the vernacular.

Are the Pedersoli kits a good value for the money - are they of decent quality?

gnoahhhh, I ordered that book yesterday. Looked like a good one!

The "kit" I built was a Lyman Great Plains, and as Gnoahhh stated ,it was an exercise in finishing.

That was exactly what I wanted though, loved the rifle ,hated the factory finishes, (toooo dark)

So I saved a coupla bucks and assembled it in an afternoon.
Finished the wood in several 1/2 hr. sessions during the week.

It might be a good idea to put a Lyman kit together befor you try something from Track of The Wolf as they can be a lot more complicated, you could even try a flinter GPR

Joe , please don�t think I was trying to insult you . The two ARE NOT the same .
The kits your most likely used to or have seen , is not what places like ToW sells .
Production kits like Pedersoli , Lyman , TC . Traditions are kits or in the white guns
A parts assembly is just that , a box of parts . The stock is pre shaped but not completely shaped .
Inletting need to be done or paid for , you will have to drill tape , solder , cut dove tails , bring the stock down to final shape � TOW assemblies are normally � or more larger all around in thickness then what it should be .
and thier inletsing just the oppesite
that�s what I was getting at not that you were not using the right technical term


i would agree with gnoahhh about the books .
however disagree the fee's and what to pay for .

Lets say you pay for the inletting from ToW .
Now one would think that would mean the items would be fully inlet .
Well they are not .
So know that the inlets will be approx � to small and to shallow . So you will be doing the inletting that maters and makes for a good proper fit of the parts ..
IMO you would have wasted your money on paying that fee
Barrels are inlet but not the Breech area or the tangs , you have to do that as well as bending the tang to shape .
Now paying them to do the under lugs and dove tails is good , depending on how you look at it .
Myself I don�t install or inlet the under lugs tell I have completely inlet the barrel . Which is a much easier job , without the under lugs on .
Drilling charges . I have never figured out really what they do for this . Because the don�t drill and tap the lock plate or tang . Really they cant as they have no idea where it will set only a generalized area thats defined by the over sized lock mortices .

Now lets say you pay for the lock to be inlet . Well what you will get is an area approximately � smaller then the lock plate and � to shallow for the lock to set tight to the barrel . On top of that what you just did is defined WHERE the lock has to be . So now you have to position the barrel so that its flash hole or Bolster sets to the lock not the other way around ./ which by the way is going to be out of the build order that your book is going to tell you .
Top that off with the breech not being completely inlet . So now most time the barrel has to come back farther so that the breech face is properly placed .

I would have to say that as assemblies go IMO , ToW is not the best and in fact overcharge .

i would put them maybe just a smidge above sitting fox , lower the pecatoncia river . lower then North start west , way lower then Early rustic arms and not eben anywhere close to jim chambers . that�s my opinion
now what they do have is a good cataloge thatd full of reasonable parts with more options then most , but far less then others like the Rifle shop .
who buy the way i would stay away from unless you want to wait to christ shows up again

Top of the line would be Jim chambers . From Jim you get what you pay for , you pay for inletting , you get inletting . Not just a take your money and do what any child would do .
For the money Pecatonica river has better stocks at a much better price higher quality and less when you by from the maker over the middle man . but then Dic at pecatonica doesn�t do anything different then Tow when it comes to his charges .
Early rustic arms also give honest work for honest pay ..
With Tow < its best to also make sure everything in their assembly is in stock when you order .
Nothing sucks more then to open the box and find the barrel or stock missing and a little note saying ;item on back order . Then when you call you find that the order is supposed to be in in a couple weeks . But a month later you still don�t have it . i had a customer this sping that wated 5 months for a walnut stock . finaly gave up and had me cut him one .
in all fairness to ToW they did offer mhim an upgraded maple stock for 300.00 which i priced for him through pecatoncia river for 200.00

I have had them do the above to me as well .
enough times that i dont order anything but individual parts now and then and i always make sure it in stock . if not , i dont even order .
same goes for the rifle shop . not in stock , i find it somewhere else or charge the customer the added cost to make it .

As for a gun in the white being just about finishing . Well that I would somewhat agree with . But it depends on who you get the gun from . Some makers do very basic in the white and most of shaping is left to you . Others like myself . Bring the shapes down to 80-90%
Many of these also leave casting lines and rough sand casting surfaces for you to clean up . Others like myself bring all hardware to bright and leave polishing to the customer .
So always ask at what stage �IN THE WHITE MEANS�
As such you can basically be paying for TRUE inletting �not TOW inletting � you also get the lugs and dove tails done , the barrel breeched , flash holes drilled and all drilling and tapping . Even if nothing else is done .

As to the Pedersoli .As i said before . What you will get there is basically a gun in the white , that needs to be put on a diet to some degree . Basicly as I said , same type of completing of the kit as you get from lyman , TC , investment arms traditions and such . Basically one could just bolt things together and go shoot
Also IMO their quality control has slipped over the last 10 years . They used to be much better .

Im not trying here to turn you off on anyone . ToW or other . They sell a lot of assemblies to folks who make very nice pieces from them . I would just like you to know full well what your going to get
So when you pay for their inletting and the parts don�t fit . When you pay the drilling fee and then find the lock plate , side plate , tang , trigger isn�t drilled or tapped , you don�t end up wondering just what it is you paid for
I tell you this not as some hobbyist who has or does make one or two guns now and then .
I do this as an income and deal with many of these folks on a weekly base .
I do everything from putting together assemblies for folks who did not understand what they were getting or dont feel they can do an asymbly such as what Track of the woldf sell , to full customs from planks to hand forged or cast headwear with barrels and locks from some of the top barrel makers in the US and eroupe .

as well as just about everything in between to include referbishing and restocking production guns with custom stocks that NO ONE provides

i would also agree with gnoahhh about taking it up a knotch and getting a better return. but know full when what taking it up a notch means and what your getting into . other wise you MIGHT just find yourself with a 500.00+ set of parts and looking for someone else to finish it for you . OR a gun thats never going to be worth anything but the sum of the parts .

PS also dont get sucked into judging the quality of a stock by its figure . figure is NOTHING but bling that you will be charged for .
yet the stock be no better then a piece of cheep beech

a good stock will be hard dense and wonderful to work with . it can have no figure at all . yet will yeild crisp clean inlets and carving as well as the most wonderful finish you ever did see .

now can you build one of these asymbolies . yep , of that i have no doubt . follow the books , ask questions from places that have actual gunsmiths who specialize in traditional muzzleloaders .
you will find that most all of us will help you every step of the way .
im not trying to put anyone here down . nope not at all .
what im saying is that with experience, come the knowledge of past mistake . By being there and doing that , we can steer you around those mistakes or help you through them properly

Cap - I'm in a big hurry, out the door to work. I don't have time to read your whole post but don't worry about the issue in your first sentence. You are exactly the kind of guy I was trying to bring out. Lay it on me!

I'll read it later today. Thanks

Cap is exactly the kind of guy you need.rusty

Cap - thank you for the detailed reply. I need some more time to digest it a bit.

Good stuff, greatly appreciated.

reading my post again , i see its rather garbled. It has been a long day and that to the fact that im about the worst writer in the world .
I use WP a lot when I write and sometimes it does things that I don�t intend to happen .
Anyway .
This is what I tell folks looking to do what your doing

Ask yourself what you want .
Is it the gun you want or is it the knowledge an experienced gained from doing it yourself ..
For most folks who are thinking of building their own rifle , I find they are more into the second part .
As such one should ask how much experience will you be satisfied with ?
See for some , putting together a Lyman , TC or Traditions kit , gives them the feeling of making their own gun . For others it has to be more and a parts assembly fit�s the bill .
But for still others that assembly doesn�t cut it either and thus must be built from a plank .
Then you have those who also feel that doing 90 of the parts as well as building from a plank , is the way to go .

IMO there is validity in every one of those points of view .
But my point of view or for that mater anyone else�s point doesn�t mater . The one that does mater is yours .

Something I notice long ago when speaking to people on this subject is that for a vast majority of folks the second words out of their mouth is often ; I don�t have the skills to do it .
Some folks are born with natural skills that shine once the learn how to apply those skills .
But I submit that they still have to learn .
As such when people stated ; I don�t have the skill .
I say ; are you willing to learn . Are you willing to be patient enough to learn ?

Then you have those who say , ;I don�t have the tools

Tool s required depend on what you decided in the beginning , that you want to do .
The smiths that made the originals did not have power tools . Not electricity . Look at what they produced . Today IMO we are overly anal about the quality of our work . When you set down and look at originals and look only at the quality of workmanship , even of those considered to be masters of the trade , that quality often is found lacking to our standards . Yet these rifle have stood the tests of time .

As such even if your building from a plank , there is nothing on a rifle � unless your building forging and casting parts � which cannot be don with a simple brace and bit , , a couple sizes of drill bits . Matching taps and dies for those drill sizes . A couple rasps and files . A chisel and simple scrapers that you can make ..

The next thing that always comes up , is cost . These rifles just cost to much .
Well cost IMO is relative . You either pay in your sweat or you pay someone else for theirs .
So ask yourself what cost are you willing to pay ?
After all that, if you simply still find yourself looking at kits or parts assemblies with pre carved stocks ,nothing wrong with that . But do yourself a favor and get the best you can afford.
If the prices from the likes of Jim chambers , early rustic , or others are to high , look around . Pecatonica River TVM , North Star West , or even Sitting Fox . Proved options or assemblies that are much more reasonable . While in some case lacking in say quality of wood for the stocks they don�t cut cornes in things like locks and barrels . As such you can many times get a very nice , constant and accurate piece , for much less .
You should be in the 400.00 - 550.00 for basic parts from there it goes up .
Case in point . Shortly I will be working on a Hudson valley fowler . Cost of lock , stock and barrel ONLY on that fowler was 700.00 . And I have to make the rest . Then build the rifle .
Mind you that�s using a pre carve .
So look around . Think on what I said above . Once you define better what you want , are willing to do , tools you do have or are willing to get . We then can give you a better answer as to who and where to go to get what will best suit you

Try Tenn. Valley Mfg. They have a good web site and are very helpfull. I recently finished a early Virginia flinter in 50cal.
and was most satisfied with the results. They will inlet and do
the other stock fitting procedures that you feel might be beyond your abilities. I finished the stock and browned the metal and
put it all together. Randy is most helpful and they are reasonably priced. Hope this helps.
Twobears

Give Tip Curtis a call in Tenn. 615-654-4445.
He doesn't have a website or catalog but has more styles to choose from than most others. I have heard nothing but raves about him on the traditional forums. He sells parts, "parts" kits and in the white too. I called him about a Lehigh/Allentown type like those of John Moll and he e-mailed me pics of exactly the stock I was looking for. When I get the $$$ that's where I'm going. People that do business with him say he has TONS of stuff in stock. If TOTW is out of stock it may take a very long time.
He's a great guy to chat with and has a huge amout of knowledge.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

Thanks guys, I just ordered the kit for the Philadelphia Derringer I have been looking for from Dixie Gun Works. I have a CVA mountain rifle and pistol I built from kits. The Derringer tucked into the sash will make me a well armed trapper.

I almost bought a DGW Philly Derringer, too. I want one, preferably two, of the originals so bad I can taste it. Got a picture of one hanging on my wall

The reason I didn't buy the replica is the stock is beech, as opposed to walnut. Not a big deal, but I wish a kit was available in walnut, then I'd have Captchee build it for me.

I wish I knew how to do checkering because that little kit gun isn't worth paying to have it done. I'm just going to try to find a stain that matches my other two guns.

Yeah, every original I've seen is checkered, looks nice, too. But since the general pattern evolved, its possible not all were checkered.

I saw a pretty decent copy of one of these in the Cabela's "gun library" couple months ago. The thing was tiny.

Finished the book I ordered and that helped with my understanding of the details at hand. That's the good news.

The other good news is that my son and I spent last weekend shooting muzzleloaders in preparation for the deer season which takes place in a couple of weeks. Interestingly, he picked a traditional iron sighted rifle over the two scoped in-line choices he had. I gave him the full tour, complete with scrubbing them out - he loved it all.

This changes things in that my original goal was to have a .32 built for myself by late spring/early summer. Now I need two....