Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles .307 win vs. .356 win

I'm considering having a Marlin 336c converted from 30-30 to .307 win or the 35 Rem to .356 win. Also what would your recommendations be concerning the "kick" of either choice (307 vs 356) in the 7 lb gun. I want to leave my shoulder attached to my body after making a couple of shots.

As I've never reloaded before but can see myself getting into the "hobby", I have probably an extremely novice question. I like the fact that the .356 win has a 200 grain bullet. But see the factory loads for the .307 is only up to 180 grains. Would it be possible to reload the .307 with a heavier grain 30 cal. bullet than 180? And if so, what might the energy be at about 100 yds?

I'd also be concerned about the OAL of the .307 with a larger grained bullet. Would it cycle through the lever action? Would a larger gain bullet result in seating it lower and reducing the powder volume so that there would be no energy improvement over the std 180 grain?

I reload the 307 using standard .308 WIN. dies.

The 170 grain bullet works very well for deer and short range moose.

As far as balistics go, the 307 is about 75 to 100 FPS slower than the 308WIN, in factory loadings.

I have loaded for 5 different 307's over the years, all in the '94XTR angle eject, and every one was very accurate.

The guys all kill big deer and a few moose with them.

Catnthehat

Better yet, you can load 220 and 250 grain bullets in the .356. You're not going to get much gain in the way of effective ballistics with bullets much over 200 gr with the .307 (think .300 Savage-ish velocities), but if ranges are under 200 yards it might be worth the reloading effort to gain accuracy, penetration or both.

My choice would be the .356, but then I went caribou hunting this fall (quite successfully) with a 94 Black Shadow .444, so I'm kind of a fan of medium bores. If you shoot much, you won't find either the .307 or .356 all that intimidating to shoot, though they will naturally kick more than a .30-30 or .35 Remington. It's a physics thing.

I have a 94 Timber Carbine that will become a .356 this winter, thanks to a factory barrel I snagged from Numrich. (Much as I like the .444, I don't really need two of them...)

Either one will do you well, but the .356 has the heavy bullet edge.

Thanks guys.

The reason for my interest in these guns. I hunt in very think cover and wet swampy areas. It is very hard to track blood trail in wet swamp you can hardly walk through. My hunting party has lost several deer with a 100 yd or less shot with 30-06 using both 180 & 220 grain bullets. Last year my 150 grain 270 win bullet hit a small twig and it was the 1st deer I've never found. I swore that I should get a large grain slow moving bullet. I want to knock the deer down upon impact. Every second it takes for him to get up (if he ever does) are seconds he is not running full steam into the swamp with ever increasing difficulty to locate him.

It sounds like the .356 may be the way to go. However on the lever gun forum, there is at least some concern about the Marlin 336 being able to handle the pressure of a .356. This even thought Marlin made 3,600 in this caliber a few years back.

What are your thoughts on this? Will I destroy the gun if I only shoot less than 100 rounds per year? How does the pressure of a .356 or .307 compare to 30-30 or 35 Rem as far as integrety of the gun action is concerned?

Maybe I should just buy a 444 Marlin?

Confusion continues! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The plain truth is that ANY bullet will deflect in brush!

That being said, the levers are a populkar caliber for the brush stuff, and if you hit nhim properly at 60 yards, it dosen't matter too much between 170 and 200 grains, IMO.

I think iit is more of a confidence choice than anything.

Go with what cranks your tractor! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Catnthehat

I don't believe much in the "big slow bullet won't deflect much" theory. I have killed many deer with big slow bullets, mostly .54 muzzleloader and 45-70, and most, unless both sholders were broke, damaging the spine, have run. I also know what you need in anchoring the deer immediately, or a massive blood trail. I hunt in South Texas, where the 'brush' is thick and covered in thorns and cactus making trailing nearly impossible. Of course our shots may be loooong but usualy clear. We have found Faster expanding bullets to be better at 270, 7-08, 308, 30-06 velocities. Most bullets will not knock down a deer if you don't 'stun' the spine, or break both sholders. That said, I'd rather have a whole bunch of little pieces and a ragged core and jacket going through the deer than a perfect 1.5xcaliber or less punching a small neat hole straight through. All that said, if you want a bigger hole and are shooting at 100yds are less, have you considered an 1100 20 or 12 gauge with rifled barrel? capt david

I don't believe much in the "big slow bullet won't deflect much" theory. I have killed many deer with big slow bullets, mostly .54 muzzleloader and 45-70, and most, unless both sholders were broke damaging the spine, have run. I also know what you need in anchoring the deer immediately, or a massive blood trail. I hunt in South Texas, where the 'brush' is thick and covered in thorns and cactus making trailing nearly impossible. Of course our shots may be loooong but usualy clear. We have found Faster expanding bullets to be better at 270, 7-08, 308, 30-06 velocities. Most bullets will not knock down a deer if you don't 'stun' the spine, or break both sholders. That said, I'd rather have a whole bunch of little pieces and a ragged core and jacket going through the deer than a perfect 1.5xcaliber or less punching a small neat hole straight through. All that said, if you want a bigger hole and are shooting at 100yds are less, have you considered an 1100 20 or 12 gauge with rifled barrel? capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Flyer,
First off you should be aware that reloading for the .307 and .356 is a necessity not a hobby. Factory ammunition is readily available via mail order but you will not find it in most gun stores. When you do find it, it will not be what are looking for as far as bullet weight or construction. These cartridges come into their own with handloads tailored to your need.
You are worried about recoil and then ask for heavier bullets in the .307. You cannot have it both ways. If you shoot regularly you will not find either caliber objectionable. Shooting off the bench wear a Past pad. If you find the muzzle rise objectionable then either make or buy a wedge from Brownells. The wedge slips under the recoil pad and changes the angle at the toe. I use a 3/4" wedge for bench shooting and find it helps quite a bit with shooting groups. The wedge is easily removed for hunting. Do not leave it on the rifle, it slows down you ability to acquire the sights when snapshooting.
The 200-grain bullet is middle ground for the .356, not a heavy weight bullet.
The .307 does not thrive on cast bullets heavier than 180 grains. I primarily hunt in close, brushy conditions. I like the 170-grain bullets best. I have received good accuracy with the Barnes-X 150-grain bullet but have not hunted with it in the .307. I prefer the 170-grain bullets to the 150-grain variety. I have experienced exceptional accuracy and very good killing results with the 130-grain Speer flat nose in the .307. The 130-grain bullet is a very surprising bullet in the .307.
In the .356 I prefer any of the three 200 grain JRN bullets (Remington Hornady or Sierra-I get the best accuracy from the Remingtons). The Speer 220 grain is too stoutly constructed for deer. It is just beginning to expand as it exits. The 200-grain bullets open up quickly, exit from any angle, and have always left a good blood trail for me. Generally a large splash followed by a few drops for about 30 feet and then a good big splash with every bound. Do not overlook cast bullets in the .356. The Speer 200-grain GC bullet is a winner. The mold is readily available and they shoot very well. If you prefer to buy your bullets Beartooth has two very good bullets for the .356.

My favorite Big Bore cartridge is the .307 Winchester so I am not unbiased in my observations. I find the .307 to be the quickest killer of the Big Bore cartridges. Keep in mind that I have one of each and like them all!

I've been kind of lurking on your posts regarding 307and 356 Win. You're traveling some ground I want to travel as well. One of these days I'll pick up a medium bore. You've shaken the trees and raked in a lot of good opinions.

One thing I can say for sure: The idea of a brush-buster round is dead in my book. They all deflect, and the tests have always turned up inconclusive as to which type of round deflects less. Some say bigger bores deflect less, some say round nosed bullets deflect less. The fact of the matter is that no bullet will consistently shoot through brush.

This is a topic that goes back at least to the 40's. It was one of Jack O'Connor's great white whales, and it was picked up by the ammo and rifle mfgs and used as a marketing point for years.

I think you're on the right track in seeking a brush gun, but I would be looking at it from the standpoint of bigger bullet/bigger hole. At brush gun ranges a lot of the performance benefits of a long range bullet are moot, and this is where the big slugs shine.

I've read and posted quite a bit on the 35 to 356 conversion and I don't recall anyone posting a concern about the Marlin's strength. There are some folks that seems to want to shoot hot 358 loads in their 356s and that might be pushing their luck, but it is their vision, hearing, and beauty that they are risking. 358 brass work fine in my Nonneman conversion, but I keep the OAL and pressures at 356 published levels.

For a shooter, it is hard to beat the Nonneman conversion's $100 +/- price, since 336s in 35 can often be had for as little as $150. So, for as little as $250 +/- you could have a nice 356 working rifle for 1/3 of the cost of a 336ER. If you had a 336SC converted, it would be hard to tell it from a 336ER.

Jeff

I really do seem to want the 336 -35 Rem converted to .356 Win. (I sure wish you could get a 35 Rem in stainless) But I am scared about the strength issue as I don't want to hurt myself or someone else.

And for $100 bucks or so I'd even be willing to buy a new 336 and have it directly converted and possibly a trigger job if that makes any sense.

260Remguy you stated that you have quite a lot of experience with this conversion. What is the extent of your experience with this conversion?

Also there is one.356 win 200 grain factory load from Winchester I saw on winchesters website and also found in a local gun store. Seems like buying a few boxes of that would supply initial brass.

I want to hit the deer hard so I'm less concerned with pushing a bullet out the barrel at warp speed. I'd tend to want something like 220 grain at modest speed to obtain about 1,900 ft-lbs at 100 yds. Since I'm not a hand loader (yet!) this may sound easier than it is to achieve.

I understand you can get the same energy level out of a 200 vs a 220 grain bullet by adjusting the velocity. However I think that too high a velocity just send the bullet through the front and back of the deer without imparting much energy. However if you can slow the bullet down considerably the energy (momentum) is delivered to the animal. This is why I'd go for larger 220 grain bullet if the OAL could be kept low enough to cycle through a lever gun.

Am I making any sense?????

A concern was posted a while ago about the safety of using round nosed or flat nosed bullets with small meplats in the .356 due to the increased recoil. You don't what a tube of ammo going off on you. The concern was specific as the factory .356 bullets have a very wide meplat and were hard or impossible to get.

As to keeping a deer down higher velocity works better as long as the bullet penetrates far enough. I am positive that the 180 gr Speer FN is optimum in the ..358 Win for deer hunting.

As to brush cartridges or bullets I see that confusion remains. I really should write an article about it.

I currently have 2 356s; a custom built on a 336SS action, and a Nonneman converted 336CS. I've fired 100 +/- rounds of the 200 and 250 grain factory loads and have reloaded and fired another 300 +/- rounds with the 200 grain Hornady RNSPs and 220 grain Speer FNSPs. I have settled on the 220 grain Speer using Winchester cases as the best solution for my needs. I have loaded some 356 ammo using 358 cases, and they seem to function fine, but I am a pretty cautious reloader, so I don't push the pressure. I discussed the conversion process with Nonneman for the better part of a hot Autumn afternoon last year. He assured me that Marlins are very strong well made actions and can handle the 307 and 356 without any trouble. I would suggest that you call him and discuss your concerns directly with him. When I find a good 336SC in 35, I'm going to have Nonneman convert a pair of 336SCs from 30-30 and 35 to 307 and 356, then I'll sell my 336CS conversion. I like the 2/3 magazine style better than the full length magazine which requires a barrel band close to the muzzle.

I don't believe that any bullet can "buck brush", as even the smallest twig will cause a bullet to redirect in flight. Think of how often big slow footballs are redirected in flight by only the slightest touch from a db or safety.

Jeff

Thanks guys. That gives me more confidence in the .356 conversion. I'll have to make that call. I know I won't make this deer season but that will give me plenty of time to find a good deal on a used 336.

Can you tell me the difference between the 336 CS and a 336SC? I assume the 336 SS is the stainless steel 30-30.

Did they ever make the 35 Rem Marlin in stainless?

336 SC = Sporting Carbine, a rifle with a 20" barrel and 2/3 magazine without any barrel bands. 336SCs have not been made for many years, but are still seen in the used gun racks. They have the same configuration as the 336 ER and 375 Marlins.

336 CS = Crossbolt Safety, the current production rifles with 20" barrels and full length magazines.

Other than a small run of stainless Guide Guns, I don't think that Marlin has any other stainless 336 configuration in 35.

Talk to Nonneman and do it, you won't be sorry if you really want a 356. If you're not sure, a BLR in 358 might be a better solution.

Jeff

Thanks. The .358 I think is a great gun and if I only wanted one gun I might choose it as being clip fed and pointed bullets it is more suited for longer range. But since I have a pre-64 M70 in .270 Win for those conditions I don't think I need that much gun. Besides BLR's you either love them or hate them. And while I'm sure it is a great gun, I'm just don't fall into the lover category. I'm a Marlin man.

How old of a 336 Marlin would be "safe" to consider? And did they make the SC model that late?

According to Doug Murray's book, Marlin made the 336SC from 1948 through 1963. I would ask Nonneman his opinion on the value of doing a Rockwell test the action before rechambering any of them, if you are concerned. Since Nonneman fires a few rounds through all of the rifles that he works on, to be sure that they work when the customer gets them back, I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't take a chance on a weaker or less well made action. That may be a reason that he doesn't convert Mossberg or Winchester lever actions.

You really need to talk to Nonneman, if you want the bottom line answers.

Jeff

How 'bout a remington pump in 308/30-06 or have a 35rem rechambered to 358? capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />