Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting Lucky Break- Now what?

Hey everyone.

I ordered a 4-12 Leupold VX2, and recieved a 6-18AO, fine duplex with turrets for the same price.

-Not a bad trade. However I think the 6 to 18 is a little much for the hunting rifle it is intended for(mostly because of the fine duplex).

-So, I am going to buy a target/varmint rifle and need suggestions, as I have never owned either. The few I was considering are, the Tikka T3 Varmint, the remington 700P, and the Kimber LPT. What other options are there to consider?

I am obviously looking for the best accuracy as possible, and considering the .308, .223, and .22-250. I don't hand load.

Thanks for the help in advance!

FMP

I would also look at Savage; they make extremely accurate rifles out of the box.

Until such time as we get more information about its intended use, I will withold any specific recommendation as to exact models or caliber. In other words, tell us more about what you want to accomplish with the rifle.

Well, I have the resources to shoot up to 500 yards at a local range.

I will be using this for coyotes, and mostly targets.

Someday I may build off of it, also.

Thanks

FMP

tough choice there.... IMHO first, all I hunt with are fine duplex in L scopes....

Second you can run 500 with a 223 but its windy issues... personally I'd grab a Kimber in 308 in a non light weight version, and see what gives, and if that doesn't do it as a factory setup, then rebarrel it.... I suspect the odds of a better accurate rifle are best with the Kimber, and its easy to rebarrel.

Savage works too, I just don't have a thing for them personally.

For rebarreling purposes, you can't beat a Savage; it's a do it yourself job, without any special tools.

However, I agree with you Jeff, this is a tough choice and I see it between .223 and .308. The 22-250 is not even a consideration in my mind.

Since FMP does not handload, that takes away all the long bullets in .223 leaving only the 77SMK (when you can get it) or the 73 heavy match from BHA, (again, when available) or the Hornady TAP 75gr V-max as the heaviest bullets in factory loaded ammo that I know about.

In .308 the choices are much better, with the attendant increase in price, of course. I shoot both calibers, but I think I would recommend a .308 in this case, simply because FMP does not handload.

Thanks guys. I was looking at a model 700 VLS. I can get this in, .243 as well. I have shot this model in a .22-250 that literally shot 3 bullets in almost the same hole...excellent shooter.

My smith as well as some guys on here have told me to go with a laminate stock, or a decent factory stock on the rifle to begin with, which is why I am considering that VLS and the 700P or LTR.

I don't shoot 500 yards very often, so I wont base my purchase on that.

My other issues with the savages are that unless its just a backup hunter or beater truck gun(works fine for those in my books) then I have to replace the stock and the trigger, though the accustock might be ok nowdays. If I'm going to do that I'd just as well have a 700 type action and get it all done right later on.....

308 is expensive but seems the best options for given choices though its not quite as flat, it will hold out better in the end....

Thanks Rost, appreciate it sir.

The Savage have the accu-stock and the accu-trigger. It is a really good deal, ready to go, from the box. Also, Team Savage did some nice work at the F-class world competition, with out of the box rifles.

That does not mean the 700 VLS now being considered is a bad choice, not at all; in fact it's a great choice.

VLS or the 700P...that is the question. . .

I am looking at .308 in both.

or the SPS tactical, and purchase a new stock...

I can't stand accutriggers...... just how I am.

As to the Rem options, I'm not up on all the letters etc... I'd take a heavy tube with a laminated stock and start from there, or if you end up heavy and the tupperware, buy an MC for it...

Would I need a smith to install the mc??

What's so good about a laminate? I have always wondered. .

The best advice I can give you is the advice my gunsmith gave me. If you are going to buy a factory rifle, you can't go wrong with a Remington. Most of them shoot well enough. If they don't, virtually all gunsmiths learn their craft on them and most are good at getting them to shoot. The round actions are a big plus. My gunsmith won't even work on accurizing Savages, Weatherbys or Rugers... I think a 700 BDL would be smart. As for varmints, here in RI, you can't use anything bigger than a .22 centerfire. I don't know your laws, but if it's a .22 centerfire you require, there are a lot of accurate .223's and .22-.250's out there. I like .223's myself for a lot of reasons.

Quick note to Robs post about the 700s... yep on all that BUT usually the kimbers are more accurate out of the box than the 700s and its almost worth the risk of the extra cost to buy and hope you don't have to rebarrel. Any smith will work on a kimber if he is worth a flip.

Heck in reality a good smith will work on about anything but some are pickier than others.

Whats good about a laminate, its glued wood under pressure, kinda like plywood and if sealed well will not warp like standard wood, the whole reason you go to a non wood stock basically.... so the cheap version of an MC is a good laminated stock.
A smith doesn't have to install the MC, you can simply drop it in, BUT it would be best use of a good stock to bed it all correctly, and if you don't do that, then yes a smith would have to do that. Figure 50-150 bucks probably to bed it in unless you have a good friend. I've never charged friends, but accept a donation to cover materials... We also have a shooter here from a family of champion shooters, brother is our US palma coach IIRC, that does same. Good to have good friends...

Jeff

what mc stock do you recommend..and how much would it cost?

The 700p is in an hs precision from the factory

what mc stock do you recommend..and how much would it cost?

The 700p is in an hs precision from the factory.

A Rem 700 LV-SF is $750 at Shooter's Corner. I'd recommend something like that.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_LV_SF.asp

also, wouldn't the .223 (being a smaller diameter bullet) posess smaller groups?

When groups are scored, you deduct the diameter of your bullet from the spread, so it doesn't matter. I have a Borden benchrest rifle that cost me $2400 used! It's a 6ppc. I shot the best group of my life with it: five bullets through a hole .290" in diameter. Subtract the .243 and you have a .047" group. That's about 1/20 of an inch! I like the .223 if you're not going to reload because there are a ton of choices for ammo. It has very little recoil. It's accurate, and would be legal to use anywhere around here anyway.

So should I not consider the .243 and 22-250?

I am torn between the 223 and 308.. And also what gun to get them in.

I either go with the cheap SPS.. And re stock it to what I want.. Or go with the 700p or VLS and start shooting.

You specified that you wanted a target/varmint rifle. Here, and in Massachusetts, varminting is limited to .22 centerfire or less. .222, 223, .220 Swift, .22-250, .22ppc.... That might make your decision for you. By far, the least expensive loaded ammunition is .223 and it is plenty accurate. The rifle I suggested, I was thinking of buying for a friend of mine I shoot targets and woodchucks with. It's got a good configuration, wide in the front for sandbags, but not squared specially for bag shooting. You start with a rifle you can take right out and enjoy. Down the road, if you want to turn it into a custom, it's a Remington. It comes in a nice Bell and Carlson stock already, but if you don't like it, every stock maker in the world has a list of drop in stocks for Remington actions to choose from. You can have a gunsmith do a trigger job on the factory trigger or get a drop in from just about every manufacturer. Spend a couple years burning powder having fun and when it's new barrel time, you can upgrade that too, reasonably. Think of it this way, as well. If you were going to have a rifle built, say by GA Precision. You buy a factory fresh Remington stainless action and bottom metal and trigger. for about $150 more, you've got a complete rifle you might just love. If not, you have still spent your money wisely and have many options with the components you have.

700 P I couldn't find, but HS are not the best but are ok stocks. Better than a tupperware one. Still even with bedding block need to be skim bedded.

The one Rob mentions I'd avoid due to the tupperware stock the way I see it in the adds. Unless that stock is better than it looks. BUT you can take that one and shoot it and if its not what you want.... just upgrade. MANY CHOICES. They will make your head spin.

What stock from MC is purely personal... A5s are mostly what I"ve been running and like... others hate.....

BTW you stated calibers, didn't mention 243 at teh time. 22-250 is fine, but not a huge selection of loaded ammo vs the 308/223. 243 is a fine round, barrel will be dead in 1200 shots though. 223 in factory ammo is not going to be your friend at 500 yards. If its 300 yards and in, then its ok.

Might want to check rifle restrictions issues too. I"m not used to someone telling me what I can or can't shoot and didn't even think of that issue. Heck we drug along the big 50 for deer this weekend but never got to use it.... would have shot a coyote or whatever with it too no big deal.

If it were to be a coyote mostly gun I'd almost be screaming an AR15 of some type.... just cause... but seeing as how 500 is in the recipe I still lean to the 308, 243 would be great too, but no choice of loads to speak of. 308 is still a great round for longer shots these days. My pick for what you are after would actually probably lie either 260 or 7/08 but you don't reload......

Jeff

Coyotes and targets are the only thing I will be shooting with it...and there is no caliber restriction on either

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700p.htm
-Rost, this is the 700P

And this is the Rem700 VLS- http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_VLS.asp

I don't want to buy cheap and replace the stock. I ruled that out. I was considering the 700SPS Varmint, then a new stock, but I think this would be a waste of time.

So, ill buy decent, if it doesn't shoot. . .ill go from there. I am willing to bet money I can get it to shoot 1/2 from the factory with the right load, whether it be .243, .308, .22-250, or .223 (regardless if it's stamped, "match" or not.)

This one is nice as well...and gives me the benefit of the stainless action for later use.

http://www.remington.com/products/f..._700/model_700_VL_SS_thumbhole_specs.asp

Not bad, but note twist rate would screw you on heavy bullets in either the 223 or 22-250....

VLS ain't bad... (reading your posts backwards now...) but I've run the P version a number of times and have made some really nice shots with one in 308 as has its owner, on deer, and past 600 yards, first shot hits. Literally seperated an ear from a head 2 years back at almost 300 with one....

Would be the one I'd pick.

Half moa or half inch at 100, 2nd is workable the first might be a hair tough depending....

I'd think you might be at this point, you have to decide to take the chance and go factory or just build.... I THINK you'd be better served with factory, P ain't nothing to sneeze at, and then if you had to rebuild that one you could sell the barrel, the stock, the trigger etc.... to recover some costs.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I very much appreciate the help.

I held both the 700P, the SPS tactical(with a cheap hoague stock), and the VLS today, and the P's stock with the palm swell was wonderful. The trigger for a stock remington trigger was a absolute perfectly crisp 3 lbs break. I think I am going to put a deposit on it tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Matt

It looks like you have made up your mind. The Savage is the ugliest rifle built, but is probably the most accurate factory rifle. You can rebarrel cheaper and do it yourself. A lot of stocks are available. You just need to get over the looks and be man enough when your buddies look down on it.
Butch

interesting on the savage, a buddy has one and has looked for a stock for his, and didn't find one to work.... I dont' know exactly what was the issue but seemed to be too many model variations.

I know this, who cares what it looks like if it shoots though. But while we can barrel it, can we get a good barrel for it, like a Krieger, and how do we true it etc.... and then are their replacment triggers and such? Accutriggers are nasty.

FMP... I dunno but I sure like the way the Ps feel to me, I have your same feelings when comparing them. Though I've seen a lot of the tupperware Rems shoot REALLY good....my longest shot to date was with one....

I couldn't agree more. I have shot the accutrigger and don't get me wrong..it does work and is a crisp break on the few I shot, but I cant compare them to a plain old trigger that has been done' right.

I may have to pay my gun smith to get my trigger exactly how I want it, but in a hobby where everything is always changing, and nothing is ever "just right" I guess that is part of the road I travel, and will continue to.

Rost, I completely agree again- I have fired several remingtons, a couple customs, as well as probably a dozen or more factory with the tupperware stocks, and I have never really been put off by the factory stocks when comparing it to their performance. They generally just plain shoot. However, I feel the P, is balanced perfect,and the palm swell makes for a great grip.

Going to call it in tomorrow. They offer it in .300 win as well, but I am going to stick with the .308 for factory reasons, as well as the amount of rounds it's good for.

Rost, the 1 and 12 twist should be fine right?

Matt

for what you are after 12 will be fine. It'll work up to around 185s anyway mostly. Unless you have the desire to run heavier you'll be fine, and IMHO 175s would be one of the ways to run, but the 155 palma bullet is the same BC as the ancient 168s and can be pushed faster, isn't a lot wrong with running 155s.

I tend to err the other way and want extra twist so any 308 I have will have a 10 twist on it, I had an 11 once and it was ok too. But I"ve seen 12s not shoot 190s and we had some reasons to use them.... lets just say 1000 yards is a pretty good reason....

You should be fine. And the stock will be ok, not the best, but ok enough by far for most purposes, the trigger can be tuned, have the gun rebedded once you get it, and work the trigger to what you want and you'll probably be set. lets just say I am confident it'll be under MOA, but if chasing REAL .5 moa, it might not get that done. But very well could.... I've shot some factory Rems that hold under half moa at 100 all the time and have been very deadly out way past that... 802 comes to mind once again...

Good luck, Jeff

I will keep you posted!

For 500 yards maximum, 1:12 is fine and the 168SMK (#2200) is your go to bullet. Since you do not handload, you might want to look at Black Hills offerings in 168 and 185, Hornady in 155 match and their 168 A-max. Of course, Federal Gold Medal Match will be excellent also.

Hornadys 168 HPBT match bullet is a great choice too. Better than the 168SMK imo.

Thanks for the information guys!

Seems is how, I can buy almost 2 boxes of this for the same money as my Barnes bullets, out of my .300 weatherby, I will probably buy several different boxes and find what the gun likes best. If it shoots it like garbage..I can use it to break her in, then keep the brass for future reloads.

test em all if you can, there is definitely a difference between guns. While I have some that love the Hornady, I have some that hate them. OTOH I don't own a gun that won't shoot Sierras so far. I do have same issues with Bergers, some shoot em some dont. Never had a gun that wouldn't shoot a JLK but I"m way off topic now.

I will differ in that if I had to choose bullets to 500 yards, If I was thinking 168s I'd shoot 155s instead, though I'd shoot 175/180s every last time given the choice.

I have shot 168gr SMK and A-maxes to 600 yards with fine results. It think it will be easier for FMP to find 178 cartridges than 175 or especially 155. Remember, this is all factory stuff.

I'll wager FMP will begin reloading at some point, comes with the shooting habit, lol.

"I will probably buy several different boxes and find what the gun likes best. If it shoots it like garbage..I can use it to break her in, then keep the brass for future reloads."

Do save yer brass FMP.

I won't take that bet. If he gets an accurate rifle and starts seeing some good results, he will have no choice.

Then he's going to come here asking for hanloading tips for accurate .308s.

Yes, save your brass, but try to make it the same brand.

True, +1 FTR

Alright, my shop has an 700P LTR in, the 20 inch barrel, but I think I am going to have them order me the 26 today.

+1` 26". Been looking at any reloading gear??

Looked at some today matter' of fact. . .

Similar to this for about a hundred and fifty less.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0065713216927a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntk=Product_liberal&QueryText=Rock+Chucker&sort=all&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

That is very similar to my setup, except that I use Redding Comp dies. The Chargemaster is a great machine and the trim mate is very nice also. You will need a caliper.

Evidently you haven't played with 168s at 600 in lots of wind... the 175ish ones, my personal was 185 bergers, trumped that 168 all day long... Now if it wasn't a bad day, 168s are fine.

Yep I know he is after factory ammo, but either 178 or 175 can't be that hard to find can it be? I dunno cause I always managed to get a lot of M852LR.....

155s would trump the 168s due to same BC but lighter/shorter and can then be driven faster with the same BC.

Trim mate... sucks in comparison to the Giraud trimmer. If I was only going to trim for a few calibers but LOTS of it, hands down the Giraud would be what I'd look for in trimmers. And NOT a gracey either, they are POS compared...

The RCBS trim mate is not the same thing as a Giraud trimmer. The trim mate actually does not trim anything. Also, the RCBS device is $90, the Giraud is $450.

Yes, I have.

Also, which factory loads have 185gr Bergers? I keep forgetting. And who loads 155gr? I know Hornady does, good luck finding them in your LGS.

FWIW:

I get spooky accuracy from Black hills match 175s in 308.

I understand that it is the 175 Sierra Match King.

BMT

What are you shooting them out of BMT?

I went into my shop to order my gun, and saw a CZ 550 Varmint in .308. Nice gun. . .Thinking once again.

Nope on the CZ.. better acc available for the Rem...

FTR-- you keep me straight, I thought I inferred 175ish factory which is out there, just commented that I used even heavier than that for 600, once I shot heavies the 168s were not great at 600.

I'll have to look some on 155s factory, I know I saw it somewhere.

Plus FMP is talking about loading now.

Jeff

I can get a 5-r milspec for $1024.00 out the door, in .308, and the P for $890.00.

Loved the milspec, slightly slimmer grip, which I love, a 24 vs. 26 inch barrel on the 700P, and I think it's sold..to me.

If FMP does start to load, then he can use bullets that are better than the 168 and 175, But before he gets there, it will be a while.

Federal loads the 175SMK, as does BHA. I do not know of anyone who loads the 155SMK (Palma). Lapua may load their Scenars and Hornady loads the 155 A-max.

HSM loads 155s. I knew I'd seen or read it somewhere. Its on their website along with 175/178s. Shot a lot of HSM over the years too.

I've not heard of a 5R that shot bad... yet before I'd drop another 100 plus into the thing, I'd probably back off and just build a custom one instead. With a 5 R if you desire a 5 R and I see nothing at all wrong with one, whenver my 308 gets back it will have a 5R on it too.

Yuck, I feel so sorry for you.

When was the last time you shot that stuff? When was your lsat competition?

Bought the 5R, I fell in love with it...plain and simple, and the trigger was wonderful at that.

I am pumped...this is the absolute last of my buying for a while....like until my next paycheck

Thousands of rounds of 223/69s and 77s and still have some, but it is/was around 2003 lots of ammo. Our PD used some as recently as 2 years ago with no issues.
What am I missing?

FMP-- sounds good, deal there is if YOU are happy with it, then the rest doesn't matter.

Oh, nothing.

Oh come on then.... guess I'll get a couple of cases of 80s for my 1000 yard adventures then if its still good enough right?

QC die on them like it did to RVO a few times?

I look forward to seeing you shoot at 1000 yards. The sooner, the better. I need a good laugh these days. Can you come out this weekend.

Or better yet, if YOU want a good laugh, come and watch ME shoot this weekend. It's going to be freezing cold; I may have to use a blowtorch to warm up the ammo.

Hows the gun shooting now that you got it fixed?

I don't know. I have not had a chance to take it out yet; between work, family, some hunting and the cold here in Houston, Sunday would be its first time out. That's why I was inviting Jeff to come have a smile at my feeble attempts; it should make for some good comedy.

Dry firing it seems to produce a good "clack." We shall see.

Few years back I had an issue with my Benchrest rifle. The cocking piece was hitting the inside of the trigger sideplate. I'd get flyers that would open up a group that measured in the teen into groups in the mid .3"s. Curious if you'd see the same effect with a .308 (flyers).

Its amazing what a tiny contact can do to accuracy!!

Denys
Sorry but nope, I promise I'll make it, but it won't be anytime soon. Like I said, if I had a gun ready to shoot and ammo, I would do it for laughs like you say, but I simply don't. My 308 that I'd like to try is still at the smiths.... though the tube is on, the barrel isn't coated yet. And my 223 is in pieces. Too much going on here.

Come up here for about 2-3 weeks and help me get caught up building and repairing and I'll come down and shoot. HAHA.

I do know sorta how ya feel, I've talked to guys that say they'll come and never do. You can ask Glenn if I"m a good guy though....

Oh yeah, come clean with me. whats up with HSM? For XC ammo it was always fine. I prefer my own at 600 and beyond but it always was a solid sub MOA out to 300 and was at 600 too just that they didn't use the best bullets..... I wonder if our cheating state team is still using it? I should clarify it was the coach that cheated for us and the reason I'll never shoot on the state team again unless he quits or dies and I have my preference there.

Glenn said, "Jeff who? From where?"

Seriously, next time I see him, I'll ask. He called the last 600 yard match.

I'm sure there's nothing wrong with HSM ammo.

Anyway, all us F-classers load our own.

Didn't the HSM thing star for FMP RE loaded ammo and not deal with whether any of us were going to shoot factory or not.

Heck I thought all us Service rifle guys loaded our own too. Except the guys in the Service. Me, I really never wanted to be penalized to have to shoot factory ammo, but were given orders while on the state team....

Picking the rifle up today or Monday. Looking at some re-loading gear tonight!

FMP

Jeff, you are absoultely correct, but to my thinking, our discussion of handloaded ammo seems to have pushed FMP into handloading, which is a great thing for him.

I have not bought a factory loaded rifle cartridge in (many) years but I do buy factory pistol ammo; .45ACP, 9Para, .357SIG and .40S&W, I just don't have the time to reload for those and I shoot so little of it anymore. When I was doing IPSC in the 1980s, I was loading 12-15K rounds a year. But that madness is all behind me now.

FMP, once you decide to get into handloading, there are many of us here who will be happy to critique your every move.

Yep, we can help and have fun at the same time!

Denys, I'd a thought that an IPSC/IDPA loader would have a dillon set up and could still crank the handgun stuff. Course I"m a bit easier than you, Carolyn and I basically only have 45s. I have a couple of 44s for hunts, a 357 i have no clue why... cause I wanted it and it hasn't been shot in 20 years... and a 380 and 44 special that get factory IF they get carried. Pretty easy to leave the dillon head set for 45 and crank it out a few times... I digress.

BTW I agree, reloading is the smartest thing FMP could do. It allows more shooting with same amount of money and better ammo generally speaking.

Don't envy your match this Sunday! We shot in the cold a lot when we were shooting at Perry every year, when we quit that I made 2 rules. I wouldn't shoot in heat or cold ever again. I'd abused my body so bad in both that its not needed again. I've shot when it was in the teens and miserable, and shot in the heat to where I've passed out in my jacket 3 times.

No, I only had the single stage press, just like I have now. Dillon was brand new and expensive at that time. So I learned to do things in batches. The thing with pistol ammo is that you do not have to clean the brass and resizing is a breeze with carbide dies; no lube needed. All I loaded in those days was 9mm and I bought large boxes of lead bullets from somewhere. (I don't remember anymore.) The UPS guy really hated the run.


Also, a pound of powder lasted a very long time and primers were cheap and abundant. We are not talking about match quality ammo here, just so it would go bang, cycle the pistol and punch the paper target or topple the steel. I used a powder measure and could charge 50 rounds in a few minutes right in the loading block.

Once I went to a match and shot revolver class with my .41 magnum. You should have seen the steel fly! They asked me not to do that again.

In those days, everybody was running with .45 loaded so lightly you could actually see the bullets come out. They had all sorts of malfunctions. The guy who won was usually the one who could shoot all the courses without failure. So, I got me a Sig P226 (nobody had ever heard of them on those days,) and I was at the ready position with 80 rounds in the gun and on my belt. I had a 20 round clip in the gun at the start. Where everyone had to count exactly the bullets in the pistol and figure out when to swap mags and so on; I just blasted away. In those days, the two highest hits on the target counted; I made sure I always had two fives on each target, even if it took 4-5 rounds per target. I accumulated a bunch of trophies and plaques that attest to the fact this was a good strategy. For a while any way. After a while others traded in their 45s for high capacity 9mm. Then an outfit in Toronto came out with a high capacity frame for 45s. You might know them as Para Ordnance. I was thinking about getting one of those but I quit IPSC before I did that, it was getting boring.

Rumor has it, you boys are in for some snow down that way?!?! Or at least part of the state.

Opening muzzle up this way, and late muzzle the following weekend in NY. Hope I can make the triumph blow smoke at least once more this year.

Snowing all morning here but only 42 in town. I suspect at the house we have accumulations by a bit, its starting to stick to roof valleys right now. MIGHT get 3 inches today, its been really light flurry type so far and sleet off and on. Denys has even a better shot at it maybe than I do as the moisture is more the further SE you go.

Really good conversation here so far.

Denys-- man thats gotta SUCK to do IPSC ammo amounts single stage... DANG...... Double DANG....

Heck I hate loading ammo but did almost all our highpower single stage because I'm a dumbazz thats anal about little things that really don't matter..... But I better get really anal quick for the 1000 yard stuff thats coming.

We did get snow, it was coming down pretty good this afternoon, but it has stopped now and the skies are clearing a bit. It's going to be a cold one tonight, low twenties.

I just don't see using a progressive to load the 1000 yard (or any F-class) ammo. I use my Chargemaster to get very accurate powder loads and I clean my brass and I resize it just so, and I seat the bullets while rotating them and so on...

unless you are the palma team...

Stay warm. Ihave to get home to get some more plants covered, and wrap one more pipe on the new house thing I forgot about.

Funny low twenties, we are only forecast for 28 here. But its clear already and seems much colder than the 43 it says out side.

We are hitting low twenties as well. Going to be good in the morning..force the deer to the pines...where me and my brother and father are.

What caliber are you guys shooting to 1000 yardS???

Keep it going. . .

FMP

You'd laugh if I told you what the only round I've shot to 1000 is. 223 iron sights service rifle. Loaded with 90 jlks, won the service part of a palma match, 800,900 and 1000... and against all the big bolt guns won the 800 and 900 outright and had bad elevation troubles vs my vision at 1000 to settle in to a meager 3rd place in state champs with that gun....

I do have a 308 on the way though, but most likely I'll piddle with it until I get my service rifle built back up for 1000 and then shoot 223 until I shoot a perfect score at 1000 with it, and then move over to F class...

right on.

I have shot 500 with a .22-250 a few times with decent results.

I love shooting paper.

Odds are you shot it with light bullets and the wrong twist for best results, to be honest I've shot 1000 with quite a few rounds from small to big, and a 22-250 twisted to 7 or 8 and running 80 or 90s ain't nothign to sneeze at, at 1000

I can't wait to get my rifle. I am tempted to pull the money from a place that I shouldn't touch, and bring it out the store tomorrow. However..I probably shouldn't and just do my three installments as planned.

YOu think I should order a couple boxes of 175 feds and a box of something else?

YES for the 175 federal. If the wallet allows it, at least 5 boxes. Good brass to work with for handloading if you go that route too. I'm going to c/p what I posted below in the reloading forum just for the heck of it.

c/p:
Mathmans advice regarding neck wall thickness is key here. And I do respect his input and wisdom very much!

Here is why neck thickness is key:
The likelyhood that if the neck walls are a uniform thickness means that the shoulder area and the case body walls beyond the neck/body junction are also uniform (close to the same) thickness. IMO it's the neck/shoulder region of most importance to inducing "runout" during sizing AND bullet seating functions. Visualize the neck & shoulder as a funnel. Now visualize that the "wall" or material thickness of the funnel is thinner on one side. If you apply a tensile load (pull) on the end of the spout of the funnel the side of the funnel at the spout/funnel body that is thinner will yeild while the thicker, therefore stiffer, will resist yeilding.
Likewise, applying a compressive (pushing) load on the end of the spout, the side of the funnel with the thinner walls will yeild whereas the thicker walled side will resist yeild.

What this boils down to is that during the press upstroke the case is forced into the die cavity, brass flows, and assuming die/shell holder alignment and so forth are correct, there will be zero runout of the now sized case. This is true of any sizing die.

For die that has an expander stem, on the downstroke of the press, where the case is drawn down and the die "expander" button engages the now undersize neck I.D. a tensile load is induced upon the case. Say the shoulder/neck walls are of non-uniform thickness, the shoulder/neck junction will yeild a bit while the expander button is pulled through the neck. Runout, or think of it as the neck axis is now "crooked" out of alignment with the case body axis, is the result. If the wall thickness is fairly uniform the tensile load will induce little mis-alignment of the neck/case body axis. Note: it's a real GOOD practice to lube the inside of case neck, being sure to get lube at the shoulder/neck junction.

Also, bushing and Lee collet dies do not typicaly induce runout during sizing. However, when the too large neck is forced into the smaller neck sizing region of the die residual stress may remain in the case neck/shoulder region which will cause the neck to shift a bit out of axial alignment when the case is drawn out of the bushing or collet die. Most affected are case that have a large difference in wall thickness.

Ok, bullet seating. Potential problems here too. Typical interferance (press) fit of bullet/neck is 0.001-0.003". Assume that the bullet axis will be aligned perfectly to the case axis. Case neck mouth is square to the case axis. If the shoulder/neck walls are uniform thickness, during the applied compressive load of bullet seating no yeild of the shoulder/neck junction will occur. The now seated bullet should result in a loaded cartridge that has near zero runout.

If shoulder/neck wall thickness is not uniform, yeild may occur, and the cartridge will have "runout", or a non-concentric condition of the bullet axis in relation to the case body axis.

So, result is that some cartridges will have near zero runout, some will have unsuitable runout. Myself, I have noted better accuracy from carts. that have little runout. Whole set of conditions enter that discussion though. Tight chamber-vs-loose chamber, and so on.

JMO though.

and this:
In this pic is a concentricity gage I used to manufacture. Simple and effective. Also in pic is a tool I've made that is used to correct run-out. A simple angle plate with holes that are a bit over case neck OD. Measure run-out in gage, mark which side is high. Insert cartridge neck into hole. Apply bending force until a slight yield is felt. Measure. Repeat if necessary. Much less expensive than the Bersin tool. Less complex too. I adjust all my F-TR (308) ammo that has more than 0.002" run-out in that tool.



and this:
Agree that trigger time and technique, as well as consistent hold, trigger squeeze, sight picture, shoulder weld, and so on are important. Note in the photo above I'm correcting runout on milsurp 762x54r ammo. The old Mosins I shoot that ammo in do perform better than when shooting same ammo from its can non-corrected.

quote: "If you're meassuring necks and not turning necks, what's the point of measuring them"

Point is measuring wall thickness. Uniform wall thickness is not only a runout concern during the loading process. Uniform wall thickness also impacts the bullet transition, "release" from the neck.

random imo info, ymmv!

I've shot F-TR in .223 for a few years and reached Sharpshooter status in NRA F-class Long Range with my AR-15. I switched over to the .308 some months ago and have now almost reached Expert. My goal is Master in LR and High Master in MR. I already have one score in for HM in mid-range, just have not be able to get another just yet.

Well- 5:18 here, about to head out to the woods.

good luck, I decided to skip the house hunt, was 22 when I got up and no deer is gonna graze on oats/wheat/clover with all this frost. I'll look at em this evening instead.

Pic of the new rig!



-Benelli Nova 12 3 1/2"
-Remington 870 12 3 1/2"
-Remington 700 KS Mountain Rifle, .270 Win Vx3-3.5-10
-Remington 700 5R Milspec .308 Win Vx2 6-18
-Weatherby Vanguard Sporter .300 Weatherby Vx2 3-9
-Weatherby Vanguard Sub-Moa .257 Weatherby(Unscoped)Vx2- 4-12
-Marlin Guide Gun .45-70(Unscoped)(No idea what I am putting on it)
-Marlin Model 30AS .30-30 Open Sights
-Winchester Model 1894 .32 Special
-Thompson Center Custom Shop Stainless Steel Triumph(Not Weather Shield) Leupold- Shotgun Muzzleloader
-Stainless Thompson Center Omega(Not Pictured)


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Nice collection, that 1894 looks real nice. Never had a lever gun, always wanted one. Some day!

Now, range time for the new addition to the family!

Cant wait...I bought 3 boxes of 175 Feds...and 2 boxes of 168's to wring her out with!!

-The 1894 is wonderful, and shoots like a dream- but has been retired now for a short time. It was my great grand fathers, and was actually handed down to my father.

Octagon barel is a great touch as well!

-I would recommend one of the guide guns...so handy and my go to rifle (when it has glass on it)