Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire Is America the Babylon refered to in Jeremiah 51?

What think yee my brothers? Is the US "Mystery Babylon?

The US will never be forsaken by the Lord until and unless it turns its back on Israel. The Lord made the covenant with Israel to bless who blesses her and curse who curses her. While we are Israel's supporter, and we are her main supporter in the world, God will not violate that covenant. If you see the support for Israel officially decline in the US, then God's favor will end and we could very well be suddenly and horribly destroyed. That tiny country is absolutely pivotal to the future of the world. It always has been, but in 1948 when it was re-established as a country, I believe the hourglass was turned for a final time and the sand is nearly gone, I fear, and I hope.

RickyD..



The STATE of Israel should not be confused with the people of Israel..Gods chosen people.



The STATE was established artificially by the hand of men and governments back in '48, but the PEOPLE of Israel and the covenant still await the fullness of the time of the gentiles under the present new covenant in Christ before they will again be received of their Lord...and then only a REMNANT will be saved.



Those Jews in Israel who have visions of rebuilding the temple and re-establishing their religion as it once was under the old covenant (which was a shadow of the new one in Christ) may be sincere, but they are yet blinded for the most part to the plan of God concerning Christ and how they will fit into His plan.



IF the temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem, it will be the work of the anti-Christ attempting to deceive the chosen people and christians that he is god..



Paul writes of the present postition of God's chosen people pretty extensively in Romans and Hebrews also addresses it.

I won't speculate on whether the nation of America is the Babylon spoken of in Jeremiah..( or Revelation)but will say that nations and powerful governments and empires have a way of failing..some sooner than later..

The PEOPLE and the land endure, but empires rise and fall.



The future and fate of the nation of America probably hinges how much we rely on on corrupt government, corrupt business, and rule at home and aborad with carnal weapons...



The fate of the PEOPLE of America individually and collectively hinges upon what influence by the Holy Spirit that small group of believers in Christ can exert as the "salt of the earth''...jim



Romans 11:1

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.





Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,





Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.





Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.





Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.





Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.





Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded





Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.





Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:





Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.





Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.





Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?





Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:





Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.





Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?





Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.





Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;





Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.





Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.





Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:





Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.





Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.





Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.





Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?





Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.





Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:





Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.





Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.





Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.





Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:





Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.





Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Vance41mag,

The city of Babylon that Jeremiah speaks of in chapters 51-51 was a real city of that day..References to Babylon there are historical.

The Babylon written of by John in Revelation starting at chapter 14 seems to be referring to a real city also..tho the name 'Babylon' may be used more as a spiritually descriptive one that shows it's evil than the literal name.

Similarly Jerusalem is referred to in Revelation in spiritual terms as "Sodom" and "Egypt" in those last days when the beast slays the two witnesses to exemplify the evil resident there in those end times.
Many bible scholars have tried to find sme reference to the USA in prophecy but aside from vague references to kindreds, tongues and nations, the USA is not mentioned.

That doesn't mean our country will not exist, but simply that the scriptures we have make no pointed reference to it in the events of the end times and those things centered in the middle east..jim

Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Here we go..............

The reason I ask? Jack Van Impe recently stated that he has changed his opinion concerning Jeremiah 51. Because of geographic similarities concerning rivers in the passage, he has been covinced that America is that Babylon.
If Jeremiah 51 is a prophecy concerning the "End Times", isn't it conceivable that the only way Jeremiah could have described such a super-power as the US, would be in terms that he could relate to (ie. Babylon)?
I am not siding with Van Impe here, I am trying to figure out what does happen to the USA during that time.
vANCe

Vance, I have heard of Van Impe..
I have also heard of Swaggart, Hal Lindsay,Jim Baker, and a host of others who made merchandise of the Christian faith by appealing to the desire for sensational revelations that folks can be prone to want..and pay for.


Jeremiah is not a prophecy concerning end times at all.

It was written by one of God's Prophets ...in Daniel's time way before Christ and the ending of the captivity of Israel..

Sounds like Jack V needs to read the bible AGAIN and cease trying to entertain his listeners-viewers and get down to preaching the gospel..:)
If you talk to him tell him I said that..:)Humorously offered.. jim

Jim,

I was not asking for your opinion of Jack Van Impe or any other man. Men are Men, and I place no trust in men.

I was asking for opinion based on scripture concerning Jeremiah 51 and the identity of "Babylon".

Thank you for your reply, but try to maintian the subject. I am doing a study on this and plan to write a report on how this ties in with End time prophecy in the book of Daniel, and Revelation.

Again Thanks for your contribution.

vance41mag:

In direct response to your question, "Is American the Babylon of Jeremiah 51" I say no.

This is what I think-

Jeremiah of course is referring to the literal Babylon of the day that was in fact destroyed subsequent to Jeremiah's prophecy. Please notice the tit for tat judgement mentioned... Babylon had punished the Jews now God would punish Babylon. So there is a literal fufillment of the prophecy through the Medes and Persians who diverted the river, crawled into the walled city via the dry river bed and over threw the mightiest city of the day.

So I see a literal fulfillment but who can ignore the almost word for word overlay of Revelations and Jeremiah?

I am totally convinced that "Mystery Babylon" is located in Rome. The City on Seven Hills, as mentioned in John's revelation makes the location beyond doubt. Rome.

That a revived Roman Empire would emerge, and that Roman Catholicism was intertwined in the prophecies used to be standard fare in Protestant end time thought. But now that so many are afraid of giving a straighforward rebuttal to the errors of Romanism, the popular teachers dance around it and blab on and on about a rebuilt Babylon over in Iraq. Absurd!

Mystery Babylon of John's Revelation seems to be the end time spiritual fufillment of Jeremiah's prophecy. Babylon falls.

Is American Babylon? No, because Revelation is much too clear about the city of 7 hills. Roman Catholicism and its worship of a female deity holding a babe is totally congruent with the Babylonian worship. So many similarities have been pointed out by so many it would take a book...

I look to see the United States of Europe arise to military and financial preeminence throughout the world, with a central government reestablished in Rome. This is where a one world government will rule from, this is where a one world financial tyranny will be organized from, this is where a one world religion will be headquarted.

America will be attacked by terrorists with a nuke. Our society will be turned upside down because we have mocked God and spit in his face. We have made his law against the law and have justifed sodomy as the law of the land. The worship of moloch and the sacrifice of unborn children to him goes on unabated daily. I believe an attack is very soon to come. I think there will be more or less a civil war within the US or a total collapse of our dollar and with it our economy. We will be reduced to ruins and disgrace because we have not humbled ourselves before God.

Revelations recognizes almost all the great people groups of the world and the major players, Gog Magog, the Kings of the East, Israel, Syria, Ethiopia, Rome, etc, but no mention of the USA that I can find. AND I think the reason is this... We ain't gonna be around as a super power for the end time events to unfold.

Hitler was a precursor to the last and final antichrist. We went over there and bombed him into oblivion with B-17's until his kingdom was in rubble. Next time we won't be there to do that.

That is what I think.

Jim


State as in government or state as in land? God has given the Jews a promise of land. The land they now occupy. Most of the verses I look at that promises to restore the Jew, is promising to restore them to their land as well as to their original inheritance of salvation. These verses can be found in Deuteronomy, Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea and Amos. Deuteronomy 30 1-6 specifically tells the Jews whenever God disperses them , or allows them to be dispersed, He will bring them back to the land He has promised them.


Romans 11:26 tells me all Israel will be saved.

If the temple is rebuilt, I believe it will be done by devout Jews seeking to worship God as the Scripture and their traditions direct. If modern evangelical interpretations of the end times prophecy is correct, the temple will soon after be descrated by the anti-christ. Will all this happen? Maybe. Probably. We may see it and we may not.

What I do believe is that Israel as a people occupying the land they now fight and die every day for is very important to God, to the Jew, to the Christain, and to the world.

This thread spoke to the place of America in prophecy. I believe much of America's blessings have came because of our almost singular support, in a world or anti-semitism, for the Jew and Israel as their homeland. It undeniable that the USA, to date, has been the one shining blessing to Israel in the entire world. To deny that God would so bless us for this support, would seem to me to put into question His covenant with Abraham to bless those who bless Israel and to curse those who curses the her.

RickyD,

Amen.

Dixie
I fear you are correct in most of your contentions.

I also believe that the only reason we have not suffered a cataclysmic downfall sooner is that we do support Israel. I can see a democratic administration led by Kerry or Ms. Clinton moving away from Israel in response to the leadings of the rest of the world. Once that happens, the end will soon follow for the power of the United States. Possibly you see that end coming sooner. No one knows but there is certainly something in the air, isn't there?

RickyDean,
Your view is common among many well intentioned fundamentalist christian denominations, but not scriptural.

Thos jews who presently reject Christ are still outside the covenant, and no amount of manipulation of lands or events by the hand of man will restore Israel.God will restore them as a people to Himself in due time....in Christ.

Perhaps you can explain WHY in the so called "plan of God" the Temple at Jerusalem would need to be rebuilt and the old covenant observances restored in all their 'shadow' ...when the new covenant is here for both Jew & gentile alike in REALITY: Christ.

What blood sacrifice would they conduct on the rebuilt altar?
There is no longer any sacrifice acceptable unto God but the blood of His only Son, Jesus Christ.

Read & study the book of Hebrews again, particularly chapters 8,9 &10.

Christ fulfilled all the old covenant and has replaced that with the new covenant, ( a better covenant) of which He is mediator and High Priest.

Hebrews 10:15
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,


Hbr 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Hbr 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;


Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
tter covenant..of which he is mediator & high priest.Jim

RickyD,
IF, as you think, the Jews will rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem and resume their observances of the Mosaic covenant, then how can you explain the disappearance of the Ark of the Covenant, integral to the Holy of Holies..?
And what about Jeremiah's prophesy concerning the ark and it's remembrance & use?

Jeremiah writes of the new Jerusalem, not a rebuilt earthly city and temple.


Jer 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:


Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.


Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.


Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Concerning Paul's writing in Romans that 'all Israel shall be saved'..
Bear in mind that the scripture from Isaiah to Paul states:

Romans 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
Read Romans 9 in it's entirety..

Jesus recognized that 'not all that called themselves 'Israel' were Israel:
Read John 8:37-47..Christ recognized that the leaders of the day were the 'children of satan'..

and perhaps Mark 7:5.

Mar 7:5
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?


Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.


Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.


Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.


Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Jim,
Hebrews 8:13 tells me that "by calling this covenant new, He has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear".

Obsolete does not mean without it's intended use. It continues to fulfill it's intended purpose to the Jew.

Aging does not mean dead.

Soon is not now but in the future. Soon with God is not as soon is to man, typically.

The old covenant will be effect for the Jew until the Lord returns, then the old covenant will disappear as you suggest it already has.

RickyD and so you think:

"It continues to fulfill it's intended purpose to the Jew."

Well, I have no doubt that the orthodox or fundamentalist Jew sincerely believes THAT..but the Yahweh of Judah has clearly replaced that Mosaic covenant with the new covenant in Christ.

And so the nation of Israel as a whole will remain blinded to their Messiah until the fullness of time of the Gentiles as it is written.Many jews HAVE received the Messiah over the centuries..but as a whole, Israel remains blinded.

All this means is that the 're-establishment' of the state of Israel as a nation was not at the hand of God..but of men..no matter how sincere some of them may have been..

The rebuilding of the Temple at Jerusalem, if and when it is done, will be part of the deception of satan, setting the stage for the beast and AntiChrist to be revealed with their abomination of desolation in the holy of holies as spoken of by the prophet.
.
The rebuilding of the temple certainly won't be for or at the direction of Yahweh to enable his chosen people to worship Him..

Do you recall the scripture that records the account of Jesus speaking to the woman at the well in Samaria?(Samaria was decidedly gentile and so was the woman)

What did He say to her about the Samaritan's mountain of worship or the Jews Temple place of worship in Jerusalem?

Read John 4th chapter..heres just a part of it..Look at 4:23...
Presently, our nation's government supports the state of Israel mostly with 33% of our total foreign aid that goes for weaponry.Carnal weaponry I would add.

Findamentalist christians blindly support that state not realizing that the best support they could give true Israel is in prayer and evangelism for Christ...not turning a blind eye to genocide or fanaticism...but oh well..jim

John 4:20
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.


Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.


Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Horsefeathers..RickyD.

Individually we will stand or fall according to our faith in Christ....and while any political party seems to have plenty of evildoers, neither has a monopoly on right or wrong as it concerns spiritual things.You cannot paint your party as being righteous and the other as being evil..tho many on both sides will try.

Concerning support of the state of Israel being our 'lifeline to God' as you seem to make it, I beg to differ.

The state of Israel and indeed any jew who has yet to accept Christ is under sentence of death as spoken of in Hebrews verse 10:29 below..

The state of Israel rejects Christ as Messiah and indeed rejects even the basic tenets of many human 'pagan' nations as it concerns human rights...all in the name of their god.
The god of this world.Thief, killer, destroyer, liar.satan.

They are blind..They are in darkness.Jesus told them then that they were of their 'father' the devil..as judged by their lives and fruits..and apostasy...and rejection of Him..

Now either Jesus lied or that is the way it was and is.
Jesus said:

I am the way the truth and the life..No man cometh unto the Father but by me...

I believe that..and so I speak.

What fellowship hath those who are in the light with darkness?
What 'jesus' do you know?What gospel have you read?


Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Hbr 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Hbr 10:15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,


Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.


Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Hbr 10:21 And [having] an high priest over the house of God;


Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


Hbr 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;)


Hbr 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:


Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jim,

You have made your point that you believe the covenant God made with Abraham is null and void. I made mine that I don't believe it is. No need to beg (the point....ha ha).

OK, I now understand that you are a major anti-semite. I had that drift all along but, wow, you dotted the i's and crossed the t's.

Glad to know where you stand. Sorry you are so wrong.

RickyD, you are dead wrong in this statement:

"OK, I now understand that you are a major anti-semite."

The lot of people in this world whether they be jew, muslim, buddist or any other group which denies Christ are simply lost and are not serving God.

All that is in and of the world outside of Christ is recognizeable to any who are born again of His Spirit.

Jesus recognized them for who they served(often unwittingly and often purposely) and spoke plainly to them.

Look particularly at verse 3 below and tell me that it does not describe ANY people who have not accepted Christ or rejected Him, whether they be jew or muslim or american.
The Spirit they serve is that of the antichrist.jim

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.


1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I am neither dead nor wrong. You declared that Israel's god is Satan. That is anti-semitic. Extremely. I have never personally encountered such a prejudicial perspective. Obviously it exists and is even prevalent but more so in Europe and the Middle East.....not to forget Northern Idaho! We have completely different ideas concerning the value, place and destiny of the Jew in God's plan.

In my Islam thread, you went to great trouble to implore as follows "So I woiuld counsel you to temper your wholesale condemnation of Islam or any other religion". And then you declare Israel's god is Satan. I would suggest you take your own advice.

I expect you to delinate between the STATE of Israel and God's chosen people, Israel. Well, who lives in Israel? Who votes in Israel? Who dies in Israel to keep those who truly serve Satan from killing their elderly, wives and children? Jews! God's chosen people! Israel!

Consider this. If the Arabs laid down their arms today war between the Israelis and the Arabs would cease to exist. If the Jews in Israel laid down their arms today, Israel would cease to exist.

It sounds like you would favor the latter.