Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters I'd like to discuss the Barnes TSX.

Please don't take this any other way than but out of curiousity. I understand that no bullet is perfect and that given the nature of the game, no single style of bullet will ever match up to all possible outcomes. But, after experiencing such abject failures, why would you continue to use Barnes? Have you had any positive experiences with them? What style bullets have you had most success with?

Interesting that while a few folks have seen an issue or two, and most have never had an issue with barnes not working, comes along someone who has managed to see many failures and recover many barnes bullets.

I"ve found a petal once. And have an expanded 416 from a big Eland at over 200 yards, that went lengthwise and the skin finally stopped it. Other than that I find it rare that you can find a cup and core bullet, and have never found an X of any variety.

rost495, Hunaria Setters,

A bullet that does not pass through completely is not necessarily a bullet failure.

I continue to use Barnes bullets, Lutz Moellers KJG-S, and Gwerard Schults HV, but only when I feel I may need the extra penetration, when shooting a large animal (body wise) with smallish cartridge, for example.

In my opinion, penetration is a factor overrated by many as it is my experience that, if you shoot enough cartridge, a bullet that expands to a wider frontal diameter kills faster, regardless of the fact that it will not penetrate as deep.

And yes, I have recovered a few Barnes. I continue shooting them in cull hunts in Africa, in order to compare them side by side with other designs, for a better understanding of the killing mechanism related to expanding bullets.

These are 350gr .416 TSX



jimmyp,
The TTSX did pencil through with very little damage. There is no way I could have retrieved the deer it without the help of my dog.

these are 6.5mm TSX in 120gr

This one was found stuck in the backstrap of a cape buffalo, not knowing when and under what circumstances it had been shot. It had been shot broadside but did not penetrate to reach the vertebrae.



These two 180gr were the ones I mentioned that were recovered from a mtn. grizzly by a very good friend of mine. Probably the resutl of an inadequate twist rate and not the bullet fault.

except for the TSX on the right, that hit a quartering on mtn. zebra in the humerous, the other four bullets two TSX (front row)and two Interbonds (back row) where shot with my 7x65R at blue wildebeest and red hartebeest.

I know the TSX look beautiful, but guess which ones dropped the animals where they were standing.

I agree with this statement.I have held this view myself for quite some time.

Also interesting is your reference to twist,and I assume you were refering to twist as assisting in facilitating more rapid and complete bullet expansion;if I'm mistaken in that assumption,the comment is withdrawn

Interesting post.

Interesting and excellent pics BBerg...thanks for going to the trouble of posting them...

Is it just me or do the two unopened TSXs look a bit Bronze-ish??



Ingwe

very complete study BBerg, thank you for sharing this information.

I find the twist comment interesting as well. I don't know for sure but I don't really feel that within reason it'd be a big factor in a bullet opening up. Would it...?

Thx
Dober

I think as a whole we are stuck with too slow of twists in rifles. Folks are slow to change from the twists that got Jack O and Elmer there. Bullets have changed.

Inadequate twist rate (read too slow) would mean the bullet weren't fully stabilized and might not have hit exactly point on.

I'd think, that if it wasn't properly stabilized it'd show up in how it shot at short and long distances though.

Dober

I'd think so also, but we are assuming it was shot on paper at long distances and/or the person shooting knows what they are looking at.

Not inferring anything about the shooter but nuances are easily missed at 100 yards and seldom checked by the majority of folks further out. But I'm just guessing.

True story, it just got me to thinking as I've seen 3 TSX's not open and yet they all shot very well close and far.

Got me thinking for a minute anyway, and that's not something that happens very often..

Dober

I wonder if perhaps, just perhaps, Barnes is still having some troubles with quality control on their raw materials(i.e., the hardness of the copper)leading to occasional failures to expand??

I am not digging on Barnes here, as I like their bullets, for the most part...

Huntaria Setters,

Glad you enjoy the articles! And thanks for the explanation of finite element analysis.

I don't know if anyone has conclusively proven how the VLD's delay expansion. The most common "educated guess," though, involves the combination of a very sharp, long ogive and a very thin jacket. The tip of the ogive is not filled with lead; instead there's an air-pocket air just behind the point. And the tip is NOT a hollow-point, as many assume. Instead the jacket is completely swaged shut. There is a tiny "hole" visible, left after the swaging, but you can't fit the point of even a small safety pin into it.

The best guess is that this long, sharp, essentially solid point allows the bullet to pierce the hide, meat and even bone, but that the jacket is so thin that eventually the tip collapses, perhaps opening the swaged-shut point in the process.

The core is also essentially pure lead, rather than the more typical 3-5% antimony alloys used in just about every other big game bullet. So once the point of the bullet collapses, usually about 1-1/2" to 2" after entry, the bullet expands violently, sometimes even coming totally apart. This is the reason for the terrific wound cavity and quick kills.

People who haven't seen this sometimes just don't get it, partly because they've been told for so long that a bullet MUST stay together. They also don't get the part about VLD's not expanding until they're inside the animal.

In fact, the entry hole is so small it's often very difficult to find. It looks more like the jab of a knitting needle. When several of us shot a bunch of animals in New Zealand while testing the VLD, we performed a number of field autopsies. Sometimes we had to look for several minutes to find the entry wound, even if we knew about where it was! In every case the bullet did not start expanding until it had gone a couple inches or so inside the animal, even when it hit bone.

On occasion Campfire members have posted photos of the holes made in various animals by different bullets, usually to illustrate the vast damage. One that's appeared a number of times is of a zebra's heart with a big hole in it. Well, I shot a red stag in New Zealand with a 185 VLD from a .30-06, 250 yards across a canyon. The bullet hit the stag's heart and turned it inside out. There was nothing left of the heart but a flap of muscle that, when laid on the ground, was about a foot long and no more than 1-1/2" thick. It was not recognizable as a heart, other than where we found it inside the red stag.

That bullet, by the way, did not exit. In fact all we found of it was some pieces of jacket (including the base) resting against the inside of the rib cage on the far side. Yet the stag died more or less instantly. It was bedded down at the shot, and when struck tipped its head back for maybe 3 seconds, then rolled down the mountain about 30 feet before coming to rest.

Every other expanding bullet on the market begins to expand as soon as it hits something, whether test media or an animal. This has been proven many times over; the degree of expansion and amount of "shrapnel" created (if any) are the differences in performance.

I have read Gregor Woods' RIFLES FOR AFRICA a couple of times. I was quite impressed with it, as he obviously brings a lot of experience and considerable powers of observation to a subject that is often filled with unproven assumptions.

Hey Ken,

I was actually somewhat surprised that the TSX/TTSX bullets resulted in nothing but DRT's, but the Sierra GK (which entered the front of the chest and turned into a hand grenade, DESTROYING the vitals) resulted in the longest run after the hit by far.

Thanks for your well wishes. Let me know if you ever want to do a little bit more bullet testing, and I'll make some room for you in the "meat wagon".

bberg

You sure seem unlucky. Thats a heck of a stash of recovered X type bullets! Wondering if you are shooting the light for caliber theory and that ping pong ball just doesn't do it as well as a standard weight would possibly?

JB

I"m still scared of the Bergers but have a box of 180 non hunting ones in 7mm that I'll try in my 7x300 this year hopefully. If they go in and blow up, that would be ok, if they stopped inside the ribcage. How often do they blow out the other side and just leave lots of damage and large holes? Folks at Berger suggested that if I was afraid of meat loss and large holes I definitely shouldn't use Bergers and I appreciate the candor.
Also whats your take on a raking shot with the bergers, if you had to drop one in the flank etc... are they simply a precision placement bullet or do you feel they are an all around one?

At least the folks at Berger did say try the non hunting version for my uses as its not gonna blow up as bad....

All killed, cant buy into the theory of having the need to drop them on the spot.

I have a few (5) recovered X/TSX bullets, as well. All are perfectly expanded, and all were recovered from our large, Alberta deer on quartering or lengthwise shots, calibers include the .243 and 7mm. Each of the bullets resulted in the instant drop and quick death of the animal in question, and was recovered only after penetrating several feet of deer. One point of interest is that I've recovered bullets from the .243 Win (85gr) and the 7mm Rem Mag (160gr), but I've never recovered a bullet from the .25-06 (100gr), even though I have fired several into some large animals (up to 500lbs) at some pretty steep angles, including direct frontal shots as well as shots at animals that were facing directly away.

Here is one that entered the rear end of a large WT buck, smashed the femur, penetrated the abdominal and thoracic cavities, broke the humerus, and ended up buried in the muscle of the offside front shoulder, barely under the hide.