Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles differences in rifle dies

In this pic is a concentricity gage I used to manufacture. Simple and effective. Also in pic is a tool I've made that is used to correct run-out. A simple angle plate with holes that are a bit over case neck OD. Measure run-out in gage, mark which side is high. Insert cartridge neck into hole. Apply bending force until a slight yield is felt. Measure. Repeat if necessary. Much less expensive than the Bersin tool. Less complex too. I adjust all my F-TR (308) ammo that has more than 0.002" run-out in that tool.

I did essentially the same thing by drilling a series of holes in the 2x6 that forms the front of my loading bench. It works too!

The only other thing I'd add to what's been already said is to emphasize that weighing every powder charge is wasted time. Many handloaders think that precise powder charges make a difference but they don't, once you find the most accurate load. In larger cartridges, quite often the powder charge can vary half a grain, plus or minus, from the sweet spot and the load will show very little variation on both the target and chronograph.

You can start the flames but IMO, if you're shooting a sporting rifle, even one of the semi custom jobs, buying "bench rest" dies ain't gonna take you to the promise land. Reasonable care in reloading and making your bullet seating step a two or three stage move of partially seating the bullet, turning the case, seating a bit further, turning the case, seating a bit deeper, etc like Mathman outlined will do as much good as all the gadgets you can buy.
True, you can get a bad die from any of the manufacturers but none of them have stayed in business by turning out junk. You're not gonna buy a die from any one company that is goona turn a pray and spray group into a one holer. If you're shooting 1 MOA and want to get smaller, another set of dies isn't the answer. IMO. Bench technique might be a big part of the answer (I hope that doesn't hurt anybody's feelings). If you're meassuring necks and not turning necks, what's the point of measuring them??? Truing primer pockets and uniforming flash holes, if it makes you feel good, do it. But understand it is a waste of time that you could spend dry firing if you're serious about wanting to shoot smaller groups.
After a reasonable amount of time and care is spent reloading, trigger time and attention to technique is where it's at. It is as true today as it was 50 years ago, you can't buy your way into the winner's circle. Although the folks that sell the gadgets would have you think otherwise.

Agree that trigger time and technique, as well as consistent hold, trigger squeeze, sight picture, shoulder weld, and so on are important. Note in the photo above I'm correcting runout on milsurp 762x54r ammo. The old Mosins I shoot that ammo in do perform better than when shooting same ammo from its can non-corrected.

quote: "If you're meassuring necks and not turning necks, what's the point of measuring them"

Point is measuring wall thickness. Uniform wall thickness is not only a runout concern during the loading process. Uniform wall thickness also impacts the bullet transition, "release" from the neck.

Hey JB, agree that your 2x6 is fine. BTW, I do enjoy reading your comments here. And your articles in American Rifleman are excellent! November clean bbl. article was great. For a two day F-TR match I'll shoot 176 rounds, only thing touching the bbls. bore are the bullets and powder gas. Good to see you in that mag.

You missed my point. If you are measuring necks and doing nothing about it, what have you done except kill time? Agreed it is your time to kill but your point that a uniform neck gives consistant bullet pull (if that what that garble about transition meant)is correct but you say you do nothing to correct that bullet pull. You merely know its gonna be off.

One thing you seem to be overlooking whilst you're making a life's work of twisting a single cartridge back and forth to get zero run out (God, how do you ever get any time on the range ) is that no matter what your run out is, the bullet is gonna enter the barrel CROOKED. Even in the most finely cut Bench Rest barrel that is true. But, not to worry, your barrel has 18-24" to straighten things out. Neat, huh.

BTW, Technique IS rifle position, trigger squeeze, breathing, etc.

uh, bullet enters bbl. crooked, bullet is engraving rifling, that is the bullet is being extruded, its shape is changing. Bullet is crooked, bullets center of gravity has shifted. CG shift results in bullet now has wobble around CG, random flight path. Probably "garble" to you beeman, go squeeze your trigger or whatever you do, dickhead.

I agree with TooDogs; A bullet that enters the rifling cocked is NOT going to get changed a bit after traveling it's own length in the bore. A bullet point that cuts a spiral going down the bore will continue doing so until it hits something down range!

A few tests with a concentricty gage will quickly debase any idea of seating part way, turning and seating, turning and seating of doing anything more that eating time. A bullet that enters a neck out of line will continue that way because seater plugs/stems simply have too poor a fit in the dies to make it otherwise.

"Straight line" seaters from Redding, Forster, Wilson, et al, DO contribute to straighter seating even in cases with poor necks. Regardless of the rifle, straight ammo DOES shoot straighter, that's not open to question!

Your posting technique could use a little alignment too....

Partly seating and spinning the case has shown very limited--if any--improvement in neck-bullet alignment.

Nobody said to measure neck wall thickness and do nothing about it--culling those cases is one option.

Spending a "reasonable amount of time" handloading includes paying attention to bullet-neck alignment, and there are a number of ways to get there--depending on sizing methods mostly.

Only after making good ammo do we then spend the time carefully shooting it.

Now lighten up and try not to sound too righteous.....


Casey

Lots of good suggestions here....

One thing that perhaps wasn't mentioned that some either forgot to mention or have overlooked themselves is that it's important to set up your dies correctly from the get-go.

Once I get the dies home, I clean each one as well as I can. I could have made a die with all the metal shavings I've cleaned out of dies over the last 35+ years (well, maybe not, but they are plenty dirty straight from the factory). Then I align the bottom of each die to the appropriate shellholder, attached to the press, before I lock 'em down. This isn't the answer to all that is bad or wrong with an off kilter cartridge, but it does help to start out as aligned as possible.....then go from there.

The guys at Sierra got me started on that years ago and it not only makes sense, but IMHE, it also pays dividends most times. It is a place to start, a very good place to start.

FWIW - My first choice in dies are Forsters with Reddings not too far behind.

At the risk of sounding rightous, if you stop and think about it, the entire cartridge is canted as it lays in the chamber so the bullet itself has got to be crooked. The ignition process is a violent one. The bullet isn't gently eased into the lands but rather is slammed into them as the pressures rages from zero to thousands and thousands of pounds. And the bullet is swaged into the correct diameter as it is forced down the bore.

I'm thinkin' that what starts out straight, should exit the barrel with more chances of being straight as well. Perhaps wishful thinkin', but I don't think so.

A bit like kids.......wink:.

What kind of powder measure are you using these days?

Thanks

I agree with you--righteous or not

As we know, chambers are not perfectly concentric, and even our rezized ammo isn't perfectly concentric either. But what holds the shell in the chamber is the neck in large part, and keeping the neck and bullet aligned has the best chance of the bullet engaging the lands as straight as possible. What position the rest of the case in the chamber behind the rear of the neck doesn't seem to make much difference.

I have a pristine M722 in 257R. A fired case standing on a flat surface looks like the Leaning Tower Of Pizza. I mean it's obvious the bolt face and axis of the chamber are not at perfect right angle to one another. But making ammo with good bullet alignment makes good groups--with Nosler Bt's an inch or better 5 shot groups.

I have a friend with a late 70's M77 Varmint in 22-250. It has a classic bananna shaped chamber--I mean you roll a fired case across a flat surface and it's obvious--almost hilarious. Yet making straight neck-bullet ammo produces itty bitty groups--all the more surprising givien my experience with other M77's.

When we PFLR cases (my favorite method to load accurate ammo), we are probably not sizing out all of the shape the brass takes when it is fired and conforms to the chamber. But the pupose of PFLR is to only bump the shoulder back and a tiny bit, while the die walls contacts enough of the case to keep the neck reasonably straight while it is being sized down (of course, the neck is also being expanded as the button is pulled back through--which can be another source of "un-concentric" necks).


Casey

"What kind of powder measure are you using these days?"


Well, we're pretty far off topic anyway I guess it's okay to ramble a bit at this point.

Perhaps the most consistant powder measure FOR TUBULAR powders is the very inexpensive Lee! ANY measure can do very well with ball powders. Flakes can be...well, flaky!

That's not what I outlined.

I agree with Mathman and Samolsen. Get a runout gauge and see how you are doing, with the dies you have. I have RCBS, Redding and Lee. If I knew when I started 30 plus years ago, what I know now, I would use Lee collet die sets for everything. I have had poor results with Redding bushing dies. The carbide expanders do help and imo are worth having. You can get them for RCBS to. I also quit neck turning, if they are thick and thin, turning won't make them any better.

I wanted to give an update.

I got the RCBS case master in the mail a couple days ago and started going through my brass. I measured the new and the once fired. I found the once fired to be more concentric at .003 run out. None of the brass has been turned yet.

I moved to the six rounds of ammo I had left over from my last shooting session when I packed it up and went home. I found that the bullet run out was pretty high. 3 of the rounds were under .004, but the other three were over .005 and one was .008.

I should have got one of these gauges long ago. It was like was mentioned I could find what needs some attention but I also found where the larger problem is at.

I am so happy with this thing. I can measure the brass runout, bullet runout, case neck thickness variance, and some other stuff.

Thanks for the advice everyone

Your words mirror mine when I first got the RCBS case run out measuring gizmo, expecially the "I should have got one of these gauges long ago."

I was tinkering with many things, trying to eliminate some annoying fliers in a 7mm Rem Mag rifle. Well, it was simply that some of my brass was a long way from being concentric. I culled these bad brass out... problem solved (although I later turned the necks on these to put these cases back in use).

Another thing I learned from using this gizmo is that Norma and Lapua brass were worth their higher price than Remington or Winchester. With the latter two makes, I would end up culling about 25% of the cases. Lapua and Norma were all within the limit I set (although I cannot now recall the run out limit that I used).

Necessary? No, not for any hunting other than long-range varmint shooting. However, I live only about 700km from the Arctic Circle and sorting cases by run out while listening to the stereo during the long Arctic nights (it was only light for 4h 20 min today) is better than watching TV!

John

I can't remember the numbers, but I have neck turned cases with excess runout, and when checked they still had excess runout. Whats the deal, why does it work for some and not others? I must be doing something wrong.