Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game ultimate deer cartridge, I have the answer!!

ok all of this talk of what the ultimate deer cartridge is. I found it, at least on paper and that is the only thing we can compare without lining up and shooting a few thousand deer to see the effects on live game.<P>The answer is a caliber that nobody manufactures that I can tell.<P>6.5 Rem Mag<P>with 2.12 high at 100 yards it is 3 low at 332yards. the drop at 500 is 31.3inches. and the energy at 500yds is 1144. to top this all off with a recoil of 19 ft lb.<P>no I would like to see anybody find a cartridge with that small of a recoil that shoots that flat and has enough oomph to easily drop deer. it shoots flatter than a 7stw and has a lot less recoil. <P>I just wonder why nobody chambers a rifle for this cartridge. Data used was from hodgdons reload data using the fastest load for 120 grain bullets. the bullet calculated with was nosler ballistic tip.<P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

the 264 win is pretty much the same. it has more recoil though but it is a little faster and flatter.<P>264 win <P>336 yards within 3in high or low of flat<BR>30.1 drop at 500<BR>1238 energy at 500<BR>2.06 high at 100<BR>21ft lb recoil<P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

Sorry Roc------neither of those come close to a 267 Wby or a 25-06 improved.<BR>

Ah rats---I hit the wrong key---I meant<BR>257 Wby.

The 6.5-06 with a 125gr Partition @ 3100fps has a 3" point blank range (no more than 3" high or low out to that range) of about 307 yards. Sight it in at 2.5" high at 100 yards. It would shoot 7" low at 350 yards, 13" low at 400 yards and 30" low at 500 yards. Energy is 1992fpe at 200 yards, 1710fpe at 300 yards, 1461fpe at 400 yards and 1242fpe at 500 yards. And it has recoil similar to the 6.5 Rem Mag. And that Partition would know what to do when it hit that monster 350lb mulie at 50 yards or 500 yards. Now a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved...

hey reloader you are right, err I mean I hit the wrong keys I meant to say you are WRONG.<P>257 wby<BR>328 yards within 3 in of flat <BR>drop at 500yd 30.6<BR>with it 2.29 high at 100<BR>it has 22 ft lb of recoil<BR>and to top it off only get there with 922 ft lb of steam left at 500 yards. I don't have the numbers on the 25-06 improved but it had better be vastly improved because the 25-06 doesn't come close to shooting as flat and has almost as much recoil not to mention with the 25 I was going by a 100 grain bullet.<P>sorry to be rude, but if you are going to say I am wrong have some numbers to back it up son.<BR><P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

the 6.5-06 is close but doesn't beat it.<P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

aw man I am such a jerk. you were completely right. the ones I mentioned aren't any where close to the ones you mentioned. mine perform a whole hell of a lot better. so they aren't close. just wanted to clear that up.<P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

Actually there is something superior, its called the 6.5 X 284. It is essentially the same round, but superior due to the beltless case. Since brass is made by Norma and Lapua its superior, because we all know Remington brass sucks. Since you gotta get a custom gun made, and its the darling of long range target folks, you are pretty well assured of getting rediculous accuracy, unless you go with Bubba the wrench to build it.

I wish Big Stick were here to shed a little light on this subject

ok 458 lott got me. I wasn't including wildcats. because if you felt like it you could take a 50bmg and neck it down to 264 and make a gun to shoot it. I wouldn't want to shoot it but you could.<P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

Rock,<BR>Take a hard look at the .260Rem,6.5X55 Skan,6.5-06' and the .270win...and the lines blur so bad it's painful.<BR>If you really wish to drive yourself nuts..<BR>Compare 7X57,.280,7mmRemMag.<BR>From the war horse to the .280 there is a nice progression.Then the 7mmMag comes in and that extra 100fps is just there...and it costs ya in so many way's.Now a 280AI....well that's just what the 7mmRem Mag should be.But for Bambi the 6.5X55(Or the modern incarnate .260Rem) and 7X57 is just about perfect in my book.<BR>Let the flames begin!!!!!<BR>Cheers!<BR>E4E<P>------------------<BR>Remove the mechanical variables,and then you can only blame yourself!

ask and you shall receive... 260 rem coming up<P>312 yards within 3in of flat<BR>37.3 low at 500<BR>2.38 high at 100<BR>820 ft lb at 500<BR>14 ft lb recoil<P>it surprised me too, but the 270 really isn't very good at all.<P>270win<BR>308 yards 3in of flat<BR>37.9 down at 500<BR>864 lb ft at 500<BR>2.45 high at 100<BR>20 ft lb recoil<P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

Rock42, you're right about the 6.5 Rem Mag and the .264 Win Mag - these non wildcat cartridges perform beautifully. <BR>Not knocking my favorite 6.5-06, however, just like the 6.5x284 Win, these are wildcats that compete well.<BR>I think the new line of "Ultra" and "Short" mag's are gonna be necked down to the 6.5 caliber before too long by their respective manufacturers and really give some due respect to the 6.5mm bore.<BR>Think I'll stick with my Mouser 6.5-06 and Ruger #1 25-06, tho.

Rock42,<P>You appear to be using numbers you have pulled from loading manuals and or factory claims. We need to be very careful when throwing such numbers around. Actual chronographed data is much more reliable. In fact, any published data is nothing better than a rough wag. I have shot and chronographed many different chamberings, and the numbers the chrono shows rarely agree with published data.<P>There are a lot of reasons for this, a big one being published figures are based on min SAAMI spec chambers, while production rifles have chambers on the large side of SAAMI specs. Barrel length is another huge factor, especially with overbore chamberings.<P>Paper ballistics are only one part of the equation to what makes an ideal deer rifle--if there is such a thing. As you mentioned, recoil is a factor for some. Also, throat life, barrel life, ease of obtaining ammo and components, etc, are all factors that should be considered. Typically, a 264 Win mag has a very short throat life. If you shoot your rifles a lot like I do, that is a huge factor.<P>The 6.5 Rem Mag's demise came from the rifles it was chambered in. These short actioned, short barreled rifles required the longer bullets to be seated deeply into the case, which reduced case capacity. The 18.5" barrel didn't help ballistics either. A 6.5 Rem mag in a 24" barreled rifle and a long action has substantially better ballistics than one in a Rem Model 600. <P>The 6.5 Rem case has roughly the same capacity as a 30-06 case. It's advantages would be a short fat powder column for better ignition, but that isn't really a factor in a hunting rifle. The 6.5-06 is already a std chambering in Europe, and cases can be easily made from readily available 30-06, 270, or 25-06 brass. <P>In my mind, the ideal deer rifle will always be a 24-26" barreled 270--even though I do not have one. The recoil is very low, it is flat, and ammo and components are readily available. Why don't I have one? My deer rifle is a 30-06 (still being built). I want my deer rifle to have a back-up capability for elk, and I believe the 30-06 is a better choice for elk than the 270.<P>HOWEVER, (and there is always a however) the IDEAL deer rifle is whatever I have in my hands at the time I take the shot, whether it's a 30-06 or my 416 Rem.<P><BR>Blaine

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="2">Originally posted by E4E:<BR><B>Rock,<BR>Take a hard look at the .260Rem,6.5X55 Skan,6.5-06' and the .270win...and the lines blur so bad it's painful.<BR>If you really wish to drive yourself nuts..<BR>Compare 7X57,.280,7mmRemMag.<BR>From the war horse to the .280 there is a nice progression.Then the 7mmMag comes in and that extra 100fps is just there...and it costs ya in so many way's.Now a 280AI....well that's just what the 7mmRem Mag should be.But for Bambi the 6.5X55(Or the modern incarnate .260Rem) and 7X57 is just about perfect in my book.<BR>Let the flames begin!!!!!<BR>Cheers!<BR>E4E<P></B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah man those are all the great ones but you could of added a couple dozen more like the 243, 250 Savage, a personal favorite, or 257 Roberts. But how about a 300 Winchester Short Magnum necked down to 6.5 now there is food for thought. <P>Bullwnkl.<BR>

Rock, you call that flat? Try this, 1" high at 100 yards = zero at 300 yards, 10" low at 400 yards. Plenty enough to kill a deer. 22 CHeetah MK 1 pushing a 52gr berger bullet at 4200 FPS. Look out deer, the CHeetah is loose, <P>Don <P>Or, try a 6-06 pushing a 55gr bullet at 4600 FPS......... OUCH, YOUZA,,,,, tear up those deer, [img]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Rock, well I guess I'm going to step in it with both feet here, but what the heck!<P>Personally, no book you find on the shelves is going to tell me what is the perfect deer rifle. For a number of reasons, terrain, conditions, felt recoil versus book recoil, and the mistaken use of energy tables to relate killing power, none of those things really spell what a good rifle is to most guys. No matter what the book says about how much drop a rifle has, what bullet it shoots, etc... the best rifle is the one the hunter shoots best- be it a 30-30 or a 7MM STW in Weatherby Ultralight. Drop and energy tables mean absolutely nothing to a deer as long as the hunter knows how to shoot his rifle properly. I would say that range estimation is far more important than the flattest shooting rifle.<P>Think about it, if you can memorize that your rifle drops 30" at 500 yards, you can probably memorize that it drops 33" also. Either way, you shouldn't be taking a shot like that without practice at that range anyway. So all the book stats in the world don't make any rifle the "ultimate", "perfect", or "greatest" anything until someone learns how to shoot it well. And that applies to a 22-250 up to a 50 BMG. Just my 2 Pesos- Sheister

Mmmmm,ask and ye shall receive. The 257Wby,is my version of ULTIMATE. 100gr bullet,with a BC of .420 at 3750fps. Sighted in +2.0" high at 100yds,yields a 300yd zero. 400yd drop,is -6.6". Drop at 500yds,is -17.6". It isn't 31" low(like the 6.5RemMag and a like zero)until 575yds. It retains over 1200ft lbs of energy,to SIX hundred yds. Crunch recoil numbers,wind drift,energy retention and any other variable you may favor. You can shoot ANYTHING,you may like,just keep your hands off MY 257Wby!!(grin)........

since I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, the perfect for me would be a 6.5 stw.<P>that 30/30 that you shoot well you might be able to hit a deer at 500 yards but are you confident that it will have enough power left to cleanly kill it. 50bmg is a good one also but with that much recoil only a very small few could shoot it well.<P>as far as the 257 wby for all the numbers I was going with data from hodgdons website. and with nosler ballistic tips. I wasn't going by the hottest handload I have ever heard of. I'm sure that the 264 win could be loaded up faster than what I quoted it at.<P>with the same weight bullet, pressure for pressure the 264 and 6.5 are faster than the 257. that is always the case with the same pressure and same weight bullet except a larger bore.<P>also I don't doubt that a 22 caliber could shoot flatter with 55 grain bullets, but I wouldn't hunt deer with a 22 caliber centerfire. the minimum I would use for deer would be a 243win with 100 grain bullets.<P>now I go to this board and the hunt america board and I don't know on which one but people ask what is the best caliber for deer. and people give answers, but don't give anything to back it up. anything .243 through .577 tyrrannosaur is going to take a deer cleanly with the right bullet at the right range. I don't like anything less than 100 grains weight. now in my opinion the flattest shooting with moderate recoil in a caliber that would cleanly kill would be the best. now the only way to compare recoil is through numbers, felt recoil has to do with stock design recoil pads and other variables. <P>and since published numbers aren't accurate. if anybody has a chronograph all of the calibers mentioned, and a pressure barrel in each caliber. lets compare them pressure to pressure. but I will be very surprised if anybody has all of these.<P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.