Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game ultimate deer cartridge, I have the answer!!

Plasma rifle in the 40 megawatt range.<P>Trajectory<BR>0 at 100 yards<BR>0 at 200 yards<BR>0 at 300 yards<BR>0 at 400 yards<BR>0 at 500 yards<BR>0 at 1 light year<P>Recoil energy - 0<P><BR>I'll be back.<p>[This message has been edited by Jim in Idaho (edited February 16, 2001).]

Jim (Ahnold), You are the man!!! I knew someone would bring this subject backball to reality before it got out of hand.

Rock42,<BR>I don't much care what MRT numbers are,and I don't even look at "Energy"figures.<BR>I dial dope on long shots if time allows,and just hold off a dot if needed and time is short.I look at wind influence,and the bullets ability to penetrate.<BR>140gr 6.5's buck the wind as well as 200gr 30's and penetrate as well also.They are long for weight and penetrate like crazy.<BR>Efficiency is high,and throat life is long.<BR>The poor .264Win and 6.5Rem were so overbore that they ate throats like kids with McDonalds french fries and only offered a minor velocity advantage over the 6.5-06' and not enough over the 6.5Skan to justify their disadvantages.<BR>On the other hand I do have an older shooting bud that has had a 40 year love affair with the .264Win and I long ago gave up trying to convince him another chambering existed.Ain't rifles great!!!<BR>cheers!<BR>E4E<P>------------------<BR>Remove the mechanical variables,and then you can only blame yourself!

The lengths that folks will go to when there are plenty of good .270s around never cease to amaze me! Obviously some folks enjoy tinkering with perfection.<P>Just funning here. I'm all for you guys who do stuff like this. I can learn a lot while you spend the money!<P>Good shooting, Talus<P>

Rock42,<BR>Some of your numbers are......... well you do not list the muzzle velocity. Are you using factory or handload velocities? The 270 stands out as being off. I say that because I have its trajectory etched in my mind. You can get 3100 fps out of a 22" barrel easily (handloads)and they make bullets that have a better BC than the bullet (I am assuming) that you quoted. The other thing that is skewing the numbers is using different sight-in heights at 100 yards. <BR>Use the same bullet type/brand for all calibers and compare equal SDs. Use the 100 yard zero and run the trajectories, from listed muzzle velocities. This will give a more accurate comparison.<P>Depending on the criteria you use it is easy to play number games. This is done all the time when manufacturers are promoting new calibers.<p>[This message has been edited by Thunderstick (edited February 16, 2001).]

Rock,you are quite right,it is a tough deal comparing cartridges in the manner of this thread. You are very much correct,regarding the pressure barrels,as being the fair way to equate things. BUT,I had two 264Win's. They failed miserably,to generate speeds anywhere near impressive. I'd like to give a 6.5STW a whirl. For a vanilla flavored rifle,that can be tweaked to amazing performance,I favor the 7mmRemMag and 120gr projectiles. Every barrel I've had in that chambering,would squirt 120's,at 3500fps(all 24" tubes). I've done two 7STW's,and it too is good. Built two 30STW's(300Supers),and they are VERY good,as well. However,nothing I've yet to try,shoots as flat,hits as hard,or recoils as little as the 257Wby. I've built three,and when the "Chain of command" approves my request(grin),I'll twist up #4. I also favor a pair of 25-284's. They will toss the 100gr XLC,at 3400fps. Sighted in +1.8" high at 100yds,they yield a 250yd zero. It is -2.7" at 300yds,-11.8" at 400yds,and only -26.7" at 500yds. It retains 2285fps velocity at that range and yields 1150ftlbs of energy,again from a 23.25" and 24" long barrels(relatively short in length). I'd been schemeing on a 6.5WSM style cartridge,before Winchester announced the 300WSM. I called it the 6.5-1K,while on my drawing board. After Winchester's announcement of the WSM,complete with rebated rim,I abandoned the idea(and expense). Now it is a simple matter to have a 6.5-300WSM built. Personally,I'm going to give it 6 months or so. Hopefully,it will be introduced as a Factory round. If I were Winchester,that would be my move. I'd target the 300WSM,7WSM,6.5WSM and 257WSM,then I'd start necking it up,after those rounds gained acceptance. I'd offer three versions in each rifle. A 24" barreled LIGHT Hunting version,in S/S and wearing a suitable stock. Then I'd offer a mid-weight version,with a choice of 24" or 26" barrel length. It would be offered in S/S and Blued/Walnut(for Purists and a larger appeal). Lastly,I'd conceive a S/S Target/Varmint version,employing 26" tubes in all chamberings. The latter version hyped,as a "Precision Rifle for demanding Riflemen". It would incorporate a precision barrel,a high quality(McMillan) stock,and an aftermarket trigger capable of dipping below one pound. That would be my Flagship. If Winchester acted quickly,they could gain a significant share,of the future market. After the cartridge concept gained acceptance,I'd release a final version. It would be the "VLD Precision Rifle". Twisted quick,to launch any bullet Commercially available. That version would be in two action types. One a repeater,the other a solid bottomed single shot. Remington went Hen****,with the wart and the WSM case design is a very sound concept. If it were me,I'd go for the throat (and I don't even like Winchester). I guess I'll wait for the Winchester "PR Man",to give me a call(grin)?!?.........

Ok, all velocities hodgdons website.<BR>all bullets nosler ballistic tip.<BR>all zero 100 yards.<P>25.06 100 a 3212 down 48.1 at 500<BR>25.06 120 at 2902 down 51.0 at 500<BR>257wby 100 at 3463 down 42 at 500<BR>257wby 120 at 3240 down 43.1 at 500<BR>264win 120 at 3369 down 40.4 at 500<BR>6.5rem 120 at 3286 down 41.9 at 500<BR>270win 130 at 3025 down 50.1 at 500<BR>270win 140 at 2979 down 49.1 at 500<BR>7mag 140 at 3036 down 44.8 at 500<BR>7stw 140 at 3150 down 42.4 at 500<BR>30.06 165 at 2938 down 48.2 at 500<P>6.5rem and 264 win are the flattest using these number. can you load all of these cartridges faster... YES. <BR>hodgdon loads them all basically to equal pressure levels. so it gives them an even playing field. I used the fastest numbers for a given bullet weight for each one.<P>also where can i get me one of them plasma ray thingies. <BR><P>------------------<BR>"and I ain't got no money but I damn sure got it mad cause I ain't askin nobody for nothing if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm livin you just leave this long haired country boy alone"<BR>Charlie Daniels<P>"I got a shotgun a rifle and a 4 wheel drive and a country boy can survive" Hank jr.

Interesting comparison Rock42. It is obvious that some cartridges are routinely loaded to much higher pressures than others. Some cartridges must have their accuracy peaks at different pressure curves though based on similar cases. For example with my 25-06 and 270 I get my best accuracy with RL22 in max powder charges which produce good velocities also, without undue pressure signs. I don't know if it works that way with a 30-06 or not as I have not reloaded it enough.<BR>Also the key is to finding the appropriate speed powder for the caliber size, case size, and barrel length which can change the velocity to pressure ratio considerably.<BR>The variables are what makes reloading interesting.<BR>Thanks for the chart.

Rock,I savvy your data. Weatherby Factory ammo clocks right at their advertised speed(3602fps),in my 257's. The 100gr will break the 3600fps,when utilizing their over the counter ammo. Hogdon's Manual,is a good one,when incorporating their propellants. I disfavor it,when employing other powders. The Remington 6.5Mag factory load,with the 120gr goes 3200fps,this assuming a 24" long barrel. Not much of a Horse Race..........

This topic makes for an afternoon of reading but when you get down to actual everyday hunting and killing deer at humane ranges, for most hunters, any caliber from 243 up will do a fine job out to 300 yards and most hunters can't hit the 9" plate under field conditions at that range. They get angry when you tell them this but take them to the range and let them stand, sit, kneel, prone, or lean against something and listen to the excuses. Just put $10 a shot on it and it really get's bad. I don't care what you shoot or the power of your scope you still have to hold the rifle on the target to hit it and close is a miss. I don't make many points with the hot rods here but experience will show in the long run. If they only had one cartridge,(E4E, you paying attention), think they would use it on a long shot? JMHO -- no

3036fps with a 140 out of a 7 Rem Mag??? That's pretty sad. Why is it that ALL published load data,AND factory loads for the 7 Rem Mag are so damn wussy?I hope to get mine to squirt 139 Hornadys at 3400 or darn close to it. That's STW territory folks.Hornady says that 68.1 grs of IMR 4350 will do it. I'm gonna find out in the spring.If it won't do it,I can see a 7 Yukon or an STW in my future since I have an extra SS barrel. Now.....Big Stick's 120's at 3500 are intriquing also.

Rembo,I liked 120's in my STW at 3750fps. My 7mmRemMags would max out,at around 3250fps,when pushing 140's. I would be the last guy to cuss ANY 7mm,but I prefer the 257Wby. It boils down to being much more fun to shoot(MUCH less recoil,in comparison to the Big 7mm's) and it sacrifices little in performance. It will get you to 1000yds,with but 15min elevation,when employing the 300yd zero. To 700yds,it really hammers critters. Beyond that distance,I would prefer more energy and in my mind,that is where the BIG-30's come into play. Those are exceptional circumstances,that I'd be smart NOT to mention. For 99.9999% of the time,the 257Wby fills the bill. For that remaining smidge of a percentage, a loooong barrel,MUCH case capacity and more bullet weight should be employed(my opinion). I'm not advocating anything,just talking shop.......

Big Stick, I'm REALLY surprised you would have an opinion, on this subject HeHeHe. Welcome back.pak

Pak,I must have left my stealth,in the "Big City"?!? I've been down this bumpy road before. I also realize that you boys are TIRED of my thoughts,on the subject. I'll try a little,to remain open-minded,due to my admitted bias. We'll see,how she goes.........

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Big Stick:<BR><B>Rembo,I liked 120's in my STW at 3750fps. My 7mmRemMags would max out,at around 3250fps,when pushing 140's. I would be the last guy to cuss ANY 7mm,but I prefer the 257Wby. It boils down to being much more fun to shoot(MUCH less recoil,in comparison to the Big 7mm's) and it sacrifices little in performance. It will get you to 1000yds,with but 15min elevation,when employing the 300yd zero. To 700yds,it really hammers critters. Beyond that distance,I would prefer more energy and in my mind,that is where the BIG-30's come into play. Those are exceptional circumstances,that I'd be smart NOT to mention. For 99.9999% of the time,the 257Wby fills the bill. For that remaining smidge of a percentage, a loooong barrel,MUCH case capacity and more bullet weight should be employed(my opinion). I'm not advocating anything,just talking shop....... </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Big Stick,<P>"To 700 yds,it really hammers critters. Beyond that distance,I would prefer more energy..." <P>Hehe Careful,the "Thought Police" will come after you <P>

Bravo Big Stick,Rock 42, Sheister, AFP and E4E!<P>Many of my thoughts were expressed in your postings.<P> I would like to add: <P> How were most of these trajectories calculated? From a bullet manufacturer's reloading book or website? I realize they work for comparison purposes. But they can be way off! To the best of my knowledge few of us shoot at sea level, at 70 degrees, with the barometer at 30.00 and with the humidity at approx. 60 percent. Just a thought...things can sure change with these variables mixed up. Ballistics programs are far better.<P> I have often dreamed of a portable,under 9 lbs, flat shooting deer masher. E4E your are right on with the long 140 6.5s, but I draw the line with more gadgets to manipulate. I don't want to twist knobs, but I might use mil dots. <P>The Lazzeroni 30 cal. that was specifically tuned for the 130 bt Barnes going a blistering 4050 or so might take the flatest award. NP3 coated bullets glued into the case neck, special twist etc. A bit too much recoil, and too heavy to be real handy but has to be the ultimate long ranger. <P><BR> My two deer rifles are both based on the 284 win. The shorter barreled one,23 inches, shoots the 140 moly coated ballistic tip at 3100 or the 120 bt at 3350. The long barreled long action with long seated bullets shoots moly coated 120s at 3450-3475. With trajectories adjusted to my hunting areas at 5000 ft they are flat shooting enough for my uses. Pretty darn close to the 7mm mag or the 257 Weatherby, I figure. <P>Everybody has their favorites. I would seem we are always thinking of the next rifle.<P><BR>

<BR> If I had to pick a rifle for only hunting deer it would be a toss-up between the .270 Win and the .308 win.<P> .270 west of the big river and the .308 east of it. I kid a lot of guys about the .270 cause I dont really believe in it for Elk and moose but it is a Grand Deer cartridge, and I do love it very much.<P> The .308 win is just the 308 win ; Its just perfect for deer, in fact, its just perfect period.<P> Then there is the 300 win, 300 WSM, and 7mm mag arguement. I dont think magnums are "to much", in fact Im going to bring my .338 deer hunting next fall.<P> But "Perfect" ? The .270 and .308..............10

I was playing around with an idea a few months ago, for a long range, target, sporter. Starting with a 300 Weatherby Magnum, and re-barreling to 257 Weatherby Magnum, but instead of using the standard cut down re-necked 300 case. Just using a full size 300 case re-necked. With a 30" #7 PAC-NOR stainless barrel, on a Winchester Model 70 Stainless action. My ballistics program shows the pressure getting into the dangerous range. But if I'm not mistaken the model 70 uses the same action for the 300 Weatherby, as it does for the 375 H&H. So with the heavier barrel, I can't see the pressure being too much of a problem. The trajectory is outragious.<P>Phil

Ross,I crunch numbers through a PACT. It takes into account,atmospheric conditions. In a nutshell,it allows you to punch paper at your prescribed distance. It can't take into consideration the accuracy of your scopes adjustment system(amongst other variables). I enjoy the luxury of shooting past 1000yds,with but a short drive from home. I feed the Ballistic Computer the pertinent data,and start punching paper at my range. The results are rather startling,assuming your scope is up to the task. Ballistics,isn't Witch Craft,just the application of Physics. Eliminate as many tolerances as you can,and good things will happen. Your 284 comments have me scratching my head(again). I just picked up a Rem700 BDL S/S in 7-08. It has the 24" long barrel. I can't decide to shoot it as is,or punch it out to 284Win. I have other 7-08 rifles/pistols that I love. another option,is to wait and open it up to a 7mm-300WSM or rebarrel to 257WSM. Decisions,decisions..........