Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles M1A Experts/Afficianados

I know this isn't AR material, but I thought some might be able to help with some M1A info and I don't know the best place to post this.

Where could a guy learn about these guns, and in particular, how to put a custom one together? The M1A forum is basically dead. I want one but can't afford/justify the one I want, which is the White Feather offered by Springfield. I can afford to put one together over time though. I just don't know squat about what you want in a custom build.

Thanks if anyone can help, I appreciate it in advance.

Scott

My take is find one of the rare good M14 smiths... Roland Beaver retired IIRC, I"d have to think a bit now, if you can find ChrisF on this site and PM him he might be up on who is best.

Forget Fulton Armory,they are a joke.

If you want the best, double lugged reciever, Krieger barrel, MC stock. Beyond that its a good parts set and unitized gas system and set up IE bedded etc.... correctly. I would go also with a Rock/Obermeyer tube too if available, all 3 would be in the same quality area.
Most of the quirks are smith related to get things just right.

Double lugged has been mentioned as not being needed but if you don't go that route assume for best accuracy I always had to re skim bed about every 1500-2000 rounds to keep it tight and if you don't know how, that can get expensive....IE the double lug paying for itself then... you can shoot a barrel out without worrying about bedding then.

I would highly recommend an LRB or Smith Enterprise receiver. SA is OK, but not machined to MilSpec, nor is it a forged receiver, where the other 2 are. Both the LRB and the SE are expensive, but well worth the price.

For all that you ever wanted to know about the M14/M1A go here:

www.m14tfl.com/upload/index.php

They have lists of outstanding M14/M1A armorers, and some good corporate knowledge available.

Thanks guys, that helps a lot.

What exactly is double lugged? Is that double recoil lugs, bolt lugs, or what? I'm not kidding when I say I know squat. But I'll learn it. Especially now that I know where to start. A good smith is a must find.

What I have in mind is simply a long range hammer for fun and vermin. Not going to be competing or anything like that. Slick barrel with a McM handle and possibly Mark 4 or VX-3. 168 SMK etc. etc... I just don't want to go to the expense to later find I began on the wrong foot. With some time I think I can swing the $ part and end up with a hell of a fun rig.

Thanks again, Scott

Double lugged means the lug projections on the underside of the receiver which keep it in the stock. You really do not need double lugging unless you'll be competing in highpower competition on a regular basis, and some feel that even then it's not necessary. It adds a great deal of expense to the receiver.

Go to the website that I gave above. It has a list of some of the best armorers around, and it's updated continually with who's still around and who's not. You're up in the NW so Ted Brown is right next door in Oregon.

The LRB and Smith receiver's are around $1000 stripped. Complete rifles from LRB are running $2700 and up. SE are priced similarly. Springfield is a good product, and I have an early one, but they are not MilSpec, if that's a concern. It can be if you want to mount a scope using a Brookfield style receiver mount by Sadlak or Smith. They are designed for spec receiver's and SA can produce some serious variances that cause misalignments.

If you want to shoot the 168 SMK's I recommend a 1/12 or 1/10 twist out of a good barrel. Opinions differ on that, but Krieger, Obermeyer, and Pac Nor are good products. Some like Douglas too, but others do not.

Good luck on your project. I just completed one and am supremely happy with the results.

Thanks Mike.

I just got back from LRB's site and after a picture tutorial I understand what you're talking about with the lugs. That M25 with the scope base looks good. If I want a McMillan does it matter whether it is double lugged or not? (Is double lugged and rear lugged the same thing?)

Once I select a receiver (M25 for example), a Krieger heavy 22" 1-10 twist, and McMillan adj. M3A, do I then look for specific kits for the remaining parts or are parts similar across the board? I know a smith would guide me in this but I'm curious.

Thanks again, Scott

ps what'd you just build?

A good armorer will bed the action into the McMillan for you with a product like Marine Tex or Steelbed. He will take into account whether it's double lugged or not. I really wouldn't spend the extra money on that option though. For what you describe, a standard receiver will more than fill the bill.

Get in touch with a good armorer like Ted Brown and they will give you an idea as to what they need from you to do a project. Have your ideas well thought out so you can give specific answers to their questions. Use USGI parts for all internals, bolts and op rods. Sadlak makes excellent gas pistons and op rod springs. Some other good sources for parts are as follows:

www.billricca.com

www.shop.m-14parts.com/main.sc

I bought an LRB two years ago with a Criterion 18 1/2 inch chrome lined barrel. It shot OK with ball ammo, 3-4 MOA with standard sights, trigger and GI glass stock, but I really didn't do much workup with match ammo or handloads due to moving a couple of times and not having a reloading bench set up. Now all that is done, and I have a permanent place with all my stuff set up, so I put some time into making the LRB into a better instrument. I've since added a Sadlak Airborne Mount, paired with a Burris XT 1.5-6 and a Coyote 1.5" cheekpiece. I also worked up some decent hunting handloads using Nosler 150 gr BT's that I'll be testing on the famous 24 Hour Campfire pig hunt this weekend. They shoot between 1-1.5 inches at 100, but I haven't checked them at longer ranges yet. I haven't messed with the bedding or trigger, and I probably won't, as the purpose of this rifle is strictly social. It's heavy at 10.5#, but handles pretty well for the weight. I like it alot.

Mike is right on the lugged issue, its just how often you want to rebed the gun for top accuracy, and what your definition of acccuracy needs are which I didnt' see. MOA at 100 is easy, MOA or under at 1000 or 600 is harder.

I don't have a double or single lugged gun, we always shot non lugged guns and they were around .75 moa guns typical at 600 yards, maybe a hair better but a BIG average IE if you averaged say 100 shots its probably .75 actually.

The next gun I build will be double lugged, so I don't have to rebed the thing every 1500 rounds.

Lots of folks won't shoot 1500 rounds in a gun in their whole life. We shot 1500 rounds in 2 months or so often enough.

BTW twist wise, a 168 will stabilize at 12, 10 for sure, I always erred on the faster side and shot 10 twists and all we shot were 150s, 168s and 185s. If you want to shoot 150/155s instead specifically I"d err to 12 or 13.5 like the palma boys. Though 12 will be fine. And still alllow the 168s.

I"d seek Devcon for bedding instead of steel bed or Marine Tex as its a bit better if you have a choice.

GI parts are the best, I am not familiar with Sadlak and will defer to Mike, especially since its been mid 90s since I had one built, but that also says a well built gun lasts a LONG time.

The one thing I"d be really picky about is IF you are using iron sights, make sure they are worked over so they track correctly, I always had problems with that, the 4 clicks of windage were never even and that can drive you nuts.

A good smith can make an M14 trigger break like GLASS... just about perfect but it can't be very light, probably no less than 3 pounds or so maybe closer to 4. But if its crisp it won't matter.

Jeff

Before I throw in my 2 cents, I should ask what your intended purpose of your M14 is? That would probably help narrow down what you should or should not be spending money on.

Even without knowing the purpose, I can make a few recommendations.
1) Pick up Kuhnhausen's book "The US 30 Cal Gas Operated Service Rifles". 300+ pages of operation, troubleshooting, accurizing etc.
2) That website that mike762 is pointing you to is about the most credible and active site for the M14 type rifle. There's some true legends posting on there like Art Lupino, and Gus Fisher.
3) Plan out your build for your M14. They're not AR15's where you can buy parts piecemeal and add them on piece by piece as budget and time permits. They're best built as a system and tuned as such.

The purpose of this rifle is simply hunting and fun. Sustained firepower with accuracy and the long range terminal performance for the long shots on wolves, coyotes, and occasional rock chucks. It will be scoped from the beginning with no need or desire for open sights. I want an integral scope mount on the receiver. Hopefully with that and the Mcmillan M3A, the gun will be a more scope friendly platform as every one I've shot seems ungainly with the scope mounts playing second fiddle to open sights, along with a terrible cheek weld on the stock.

The set-up I am modeling this build after seems to be the SA White Feather. But like I said this will have to be put together over time. I'm ready to purchase the receiver and get the stock ordered as soon as I feel I'm headed in the right direction.

I have considered an AR-10 platform. But when it comes right down to it, I just want something different this time. That and M14's are simply bad a$$ equipment.

Thanks again for the help. Hopefully I've been clear as mud.

Scott

ps. Will you guys explain about Springfield Armory not being milspec? I was under the impression they were a major supplier to the military. Why wouldn't they be milspec, and why would the military allow that? Maybe I just don't understand what milspec means.

Scott, check http://m14tfl.com

That is one of the better M1A info sites. Ask here, or in another forum that is not dedicated to the platform, and you will get misinformation.

Maybe the single most knowledgable man in America is 'Different'.

His little web site on the M14 is HERE

as to Springfield Armory, there are sorta two of those. The original was a .gov facility, making guns for the military. The current iteration is a commercial enterprise using the old name.

You're going to play he!! trying to find a receiver without sights. The M14 platform was designed as a MBR, to be used with open sights, and scoping one was an afterthought when the Army decided to re establish sniping during the VN War. They adopted the M14 receiver because they had a boatload of them. They put out a bid for a mount and Mitch Mattieko (sp) of Brookfield Presision Machining invented the three point receiver mount which has been the standard and the basis for almost all other receiver type mounts on the platform. If you want the receiver, you're going to have to accept the shortcomings.

Personally, I like having the irons and the scope, as it gives options, and the M14 sights are, IMO, the best irons ever to be mounted on a MBR, and capable of some damn fine work out to very long ranges.

I can testify that, while the platform is somewhat unwieldy with the scope mount, it isn't any more so than some of the sporting rifles I've seen with large glass on them. I like the way mine handles with the 18 1/2" barrel, and while somewhat heavy at between 10 1/2-11#, depending upon which magazine is used, it's still pretty handy, as most of the weight is between your hands. The stock you describe will handle a scope better than the standard stock, but may be more clumsy on faster shots, as the LOP/pistol grip shape is more conducive to rested shooting. The Coyote cheekpiece I have on mine places my head in perfect position upon mounting the rifle to acquire the reticle, and it is easy to put lead on target rapidly. The pig I shot this weekend with my setup was moving at a trot when I shot her, and it was very comfortable to mount and shoot with no head adjustments needed.

As to SA being non MilSpec, SA receivers are cast, then machined to final dimension. This has absolutely nothing to do with strength though, and everything to do with machining. Even H&R, one of the original contractors, had many problems with turning out Spec receivers, as there are literally hundreds of separate machining operations and setups necessary on this particular receiver. Back in the day, it was all set up by hand, every time, and this allowed for variances. Some were greater than others, and might have been rejected by the Military because of it. The present day SA is not a .mil contractor, and thus doesn't have that QC problem, so they can turn out a non MilSpec product, and no one cares-until they try and mount a Brookfield style scope mounting system. The steel and titanium mounts put out by Sadlak and Smith are designed for the MilSpec receiver, and there can be problems with both the horizontal receiver groove being too narrow, and the screw hole being of the wrong size and thread pitch. The aluminum mounts can be "squoze" to fit, but it's not the optimum setup, and can lead to stresses on the screws and mount itself. Some dislike the aluminum mounts because of differential expansion rates between steel and aluminum, but if the mount fit correctly, I don't think this would be a concern, especially if a quality mount were used, vice one from say "Cheaper Than Dirt".

I guess what all that verbiage means is that if you want an M14/M1A style receiver, you're probably going to have to accept certain things about it. The more expensive ones from LRB and Smith Enterprises are that way because they take the time to machine them correctly, and time is money. You can try and make the platform into something it was never designed to be, and there are many ways around that, but acceptance of shortcomings is a necessity. It will never be as handy as your average sporting/varmint rifle. It will never have the trigger that you can get in the AR platform. It will never have the accuracy that you can get out of either one of the above, just due to design. If you can accept those "shortcomings", then you'll probably be happy with your rifle. If not, then you probably want to spend that money on something that will achieve that, and just buy a standard grade M1A for fun. I've got close to $3700 tied up in mine, which is a pile of dough for something that might disappoint you. But I have a nostalgia for the platform because it is what I trained on back in the day, and I like it. YMMV.

I"ll say this you need to really want the M14 for being just that.... YOu'll have to put in a ton of money to get the accuracy and reliability you would have in just a good bolt gun in 308. Plus 308 while a great round might not be the best choice for what you are after.

That being said, if you want one because... then its a done deal, all the advice is solid and you simply move forward from there.

Jeff

I appreciate you guys taking time to help me. All good points brought up. Definitely feel more comfortable talking to a smith now. The sites you brought up are very good. I realize this isn't the optimal way to go, but I've never let that stand in my way.

Thanks again, Scott

Scott,
mike762 and Rost just gave you the best information. The M14 wasn't designed around scope mounting and most efforts are compromises at best. An LRB with an integral rail sounds like what you need...but it'll cost you.

Try to get USGI parts whenever possible. Tap a smith with alot of experience. Most of the old Highpower smiths are great at building iron sighted guns. Scoped guns share the need for accuracy, but the scope mounting is different animal, and I'm not so familiar with the smiths that specialize in those. Good luck. Show us the pics when you're done.

Why do you need a custom if you don't know anything about them?
Just buy a Super Match and shoot it. You will figure out as you go what you want to change (if anything)
whelennut

It sounds like a factory Springfield would fit your needs, you can spend silly money on M1A platforms and get minimal improvement in accuracy. You can pick up a "loaded" package used for 1,300-1,400, pick up a mount and a decent scope and you will have a fun rifle at a reasonable cost.

If you want to upgrade down the road for a M-25 (which I have myself as well as many other M1A's) you will get back most of your money-Factory Springfield's hold there value very well.

Don't get hung up on Forged receiver's and Mil spec parts etc. unless your a High Power shooter that's putting multi-thousand's of rounds a year through your gun and even then I had a Smith Enterprise receiver crack and I never cracked a Factory SA. It doesn't mean one is better than the other it just means anything can happen. Double Lug receivers will help with consistency but remember accuracy starts in the barrel and then works backwards.

The M1A is my favorite military rifle and I have enjoyed shooting them for over 25 years, you won't find a better more dependable rifle out there. I hope you pick one up soon and go shooting !!!!!!

Dino

I don't understand unless SA has become better, but a rack grade package was ok, but the upgrades when I was shooting, IE the bedding, trigger jobs and such and the barrel too, where never close to the best and had to be redone/replaced. So the upgrade packages accuracy wise were always a rip off IMHO>

ROST 495

You have a good point and not all new SA guns give you a better gun as you start going up in models, NM, SM, M21 etc. The only one I would say is guaranteed to be a tackdriver in the M25 but for what you pay for it it should be.

I recommended the Loaded package which is basically a Nation Match that's not bedded, you get the NM sights and a NM Barrel and it's a lot cheaper than buying a Factory NM.

I have a wood stocked "loaded" which i didn't bed that has a stainless barrel that outshoots my SA Marine Mcmillan Super-Match and it cost 1/3 of the Mcmillan, so you have an excellent point about spending for all the extra's and not necessarily getting a more accurate gun !

Dino

I have my 2 takes on this. Buy rack grade and shoot it, then when it doesn't shoot, bed it, when the barrel dies, replace that with a Kreiger and not a douglas.

OR you start from scratch and build the best you can.

I don't put much faith in the in between ones generally... and that has been that way with SA since the 80s. You can get a good SA NM tube, I had one on a friends gun I used once, but you can get a good Colt tube on an AR and chrome lined and you'll really have a tube that lives... and is accurate, but how many would you go through to get that one...