Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns .357 load for bowling pins

Dr. Howell,
It's good to "see" you feeling better, and back to your more fiesty self. It warms the heart. Wishing you many, many more returns.

As to the current discussion; has anyone ever done the math to see just exactly how much momentum, or energy, is required to move the pin off the table? Someone should be able to weigh the pin and figure the ft/lbs required.
Of course then we would have to figure the angular momentum needed with a less-than-center hit. Can't leave out the different coefficients of friction on the different table top materials/conditions, changes in atmospheric conditions/air densities, ad nauseum.
I think most would agree that a center hit with an adequate load is better than a peripheral hit with anything else.
So, pick a load that will do the job, and practice, practice, practice. No one can beat the luck of the draw, but you can be the best prepared. i.e.,
" It seems the harder I work, the luckier I get".
You don't hear a lot about the loads used by the top competititors - they are available to everyone. But, you do hear a lot about how much they shoot.

Following our monthly NRA centerfire rifle silhouette match I have stopped many times to watch the bowling pin shooters do their thing.Having been a longtime IHMSA & PPC shooter this was like wavin a red flag.I had to give it a go.Not my thing as it was two matches in one day but it was a hell of a good time.Having said that,I have drawn the following conclutions:

1.You can use the hammer of Thor,a 45ACP. or anything in between on bowling pins.

2.On any given day the pins will fail to cooperate.LOL

3.Most of this technical crap is just that, crap.

And last but not least.

4.Don't overpower yourself.Your firearm is a tool and like any other it's only as good as the person using it.ACCURACY FIRST,speed will follow sooner than you think.

This is where, I deem, you went wrong.

1st) no one was talking about "killing power"

2nd) TRANSFER of momentum is the critical concern. Momentum, by itself, is not the issue.



You want a load that is controllable. Yes a 300 gr LBT type bullet running at 1300 fps has more than enough momentum to take any pin off of any table, but unless your last name is Tapp or Miculek, your times will be VERY slow.

No, I wasn't wrong. I was introducing a pertinent consideration that hadn't been mentioned yet, not merely addressing only the points mentioned in the original post. In any discussion, this is a legitimate and often necessary kind of contribution.

1. Since a nearly universal criterion for evaluating bullet perfomance is kinetic energy as a secondary index of a bullet's killing power, I was merely pointing-out that since killing power isn't a factor in shooting pins off a table, the math and physics involved treat momentum rather than kinetic energy. I was trying to ward-off any mistaken consideration of kinetic energy as a pertinent factor in pin-shooting, not answering any prior mention of killing power.

2. Momentum is indeed the issue when you're talking about loads and their performance rather than the shooter and his marksmanship. No shooter, no load, no bullet can transfer what it doesn't have � so momentum is indeed a first consideration � inherent momentum first, then transferred momentum if and when the discussion broadens beyond the load and its inherent properties.

You're right about what you contend is also crucial, but you're wrong in substituting that for the issue that I was accurately and correctly addressing.

Technical, technical, technical, armchair shooters give me the runs.Go to the range and have some fun instead of disecting everything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Racists aren't the only bigots among us, obviously.

Thinking doesn't have to replace shooting or any other kind of fun. Learning the technical has improved my practical enjoyment many times over. But learning does require a growing mind, not a skull full of nothing. Bigotry is no substitute for thinking or wisdom.

"Armchair shooters?" Before the stroke stuck me in a wheelchair, I stood firm on my "hind legs" to shoot, maybe longer ago than some here have stood on their own feet at all. Now, though I stand very weak and wobbly, I still shoot � at targets and varmints, not at the knowledge and interests of others. And I sometimes shoot from my wheelchair. Heck, I've even shot from my bunk and my recliner. The range is neither Heaven nor the only place to shoot.

"Go to the range and have some fun" is a wonderful option not precluded by indulging in learning the technical. Also, my study (and "dissection") of the technical is often a late-at-night affair, when the range is closed and dark. And it has led to a lot more shooting.

How could you have fun at the range if nobody had "dissected" the technical for you? You'd be throwing rocks.

Which, come to think of it, you've just done with your stupid post.

Your honest and forthright reply has been noted.As for your physical disability,I am diminished and will forever be in your shadow Sir.
Good luck and good shooting,
Dennis

Dennis - I can't tell you how much I've learned and applied at the range after doing mind experiments. Besides thinking and talking about shooting is often the only "gunning" I get a chance to do.

You are right. We need to get to the range, but when we can't we can think and talk about guns and shooting examining for actual trial on the range our ideas and experiences.

Despite its stupid point, 284LUVR's post does bring to mind a couple of vital considerations that'll be basic to the day-to-day operation of the Powley Center and its Open House every Saturday.

In addition to the many shooting experiments that we'll originate and execute there, the Center will be a hub for any and all kinds of "ordinary" shooters' study and discussions, which will in turn produce many unanswered questions that we'll attempt to explore through carefully designed tests and experiments � including shooting as many test rounds as the question requires for a clear and satisfactory answer.

We'll also shoot many, many rounds just for fun and to develop individual skills. I'd like to include, for example, a Crazy Quail pit and trap for sheer fun with shotguns (I'm almost wholly a rifle and handgun man, so Crazy Quail is the only shotgun "game" that appeals to me). I'd also like to have a bowling-pin table there, again for the sheer fun of it and the development of individual skills (even a little friendly competition and occasional exploratory "dissection" of the technical fundamentals).

I've long planned to place, at several places around the grounds, racks of clay "birds" for spontaneous whirl-and-shoot practice whenever the thought strikes.

And the Powley Center lab will allow many kinds of try-and-see manipulations to see, for examples, such things as the effects of absorbed moisture on powder performance and the effects of barrel temperatures (at the time of firing) upon de facto zero, muzzle velocities, accuracy, and precision. It doesn't take much "technical crap" to produce a lot of enjoyable shooting. The acquisition of useful technical knowledge turns me on, and the sharing of such knowledge not much less so. Winning awards hasn't meant much to me since I saw (in 1947, when my writing won a couple) how soon the thin thrill fades away.

Exploratory shooting is lots more fun for me than competitive shooting. I flat don't give a damn how much faster and better Jerry Mikulek can shoot than I can, so I've thoroughly enjoyed watching him put an S&W through its extreme special paces.

Maybe y'all can imagine how delighted I'll be whenever another shooter shows-up with a technical question or confusion that'll inspire some more thought, new test design, and some more experimental shooting.

re: inherent momentum first, then transferred momentum

This discussion should be about work: force over distance.

A heavy needle or nail may have the same momentum as a bullet, it would have little transfer of energy or momentum if it passes through the pin due to its shape. Little energy is useable to perform the work of moving the pin over the distnce of the table. And the pin does not fall from the table.

Seems both camps are right. Heavier, blunt objects transfer kenetic energy more efficently because less energy is expended in deformation. More energy remains for the work of pushing the pin off of the table.

Deputy Norm & Ken Howell,
I've always considered myself to be a practical rather than a technical shooter and in all honesty sometimes practical just ain't always practical. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It was not my intention to demean any of my hopefully new Campfire friends but as in any discussion forum sometimes flames are fanned and feathers are ruffled.Hopefully the smoke has died and we're all struttin' our stuff.
Yours in smoke (campfire that is),
Dennis

ok i read an article few years ago about shooting pins.And i went to the local bowling alley and picked a bunch up i've been shooting them with everthing from 22lr to 444 marlin.I just set a small bench i've made and set them about 3-6 from the back i'm wondering what is the proper setup for formal pin shooting how high, how far away etc...

Norm, Ill let everyone else argue momentum and physics (skipped those classes to go hunting) but I have killed a couple bowling alleys worth of pins in my life.

The pins definitly have a sweet spot that if hit will allow almost anything with decent power to take them off the table. In the 80's Bill Wilson was a dominate pin shooter using a 1911 loaded with 185gr target wadcutters at about 800fps. He counted on making one perfect shot per pin and cleaning the table. He told me he had to place his shot within a 2" circle on the pin to be effective.

A lot of guys went the other direction using the speer 200gr "ashtray" (damn thing was a monster hollowpoint with a sharp edge) and pushed it at or a little over 1000 fps. They could afford to have a marginal hit and still take pins off the table, by marginal I am still refering to a pretty good center hit. When hit on the edges the pin wil spin or fall creating what is called "dead wood". Dead wood is to be avoided at all cost because they will spin like a top without leaving the table.

A match is a tough place to learn due to adrenaline masking how much you can observe (if you watch the pins fly your not watching your sight and you will expend a lot of bullets <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
I learned more about pin shooting in one day than I did in months by creating a pile of splinters from a box of pins. I deliberately shot further and further from the center and observed how the pins were flying (or spinning) and kept notes. For me I found a sweet spot about 2" wide and about 4" high would allow one shot per pin. If using a light load or a bullet with a rounded profile the sweet spot shrinks down to about 1 1/2" by 3". I used the "ashtray" at 850fps from my auto and 255gr full wadcutters at 750fps from my SW625. Hint: the center of the sweet spot is about two inches under the red triangle on the pin.

One word of warning, mmm better make that two or three 1) dont shoot roundnose or ball ammo at pins, it can bounce back and I have an ugly scar to prove it. 2)if you shoot it once you will become addicted and will expend enourmous amounts of energy into cleaning a table consistently. 3) you will never be able to bowl again. You will stand at the line with a ball in your hand and imagine who quickly you could clear them all if only you could shoot in the bowling alley.

Have fun and enjoy.

Excellent, helpful post usefully extending the discussion beyond the scope of the original question. Thanks!

varmintsinc,

Your point is well taken. I've been practising shooting a 2" bullseye at 30'. I have seen shooters with target load clear the table while others with hand cannons spin them round and round and use up their allotment of ammo with some pins still on the table. Marksmanship is key, isn't it?

Thanks,