Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Give me a break!!!

As you know, I'm not a big fan of magnums for deer hunting<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />! Most times, I think, for deer they are too much gun. It's just my opinion and I don't want to start flames. It's your money. Choose what trips your trigger. Today I was talking to a c-teacher and he told me that he got a new gun. He currently hunts with a 270. He hunts South Texas. He told me he got a new M70, in 7mm mag. He then showed me the balistics with it using 160gn Nosler Partitions. I asked him if he had shot it yet and he said no. He was having a muzzle brake installed and wouldn't get it until the week before season. I have no problem with new guns, but He is obviously buying on hype. I would make the argument that, for him, his 270 with 130gn factory loads are better than the 7mag. What are your opinions? I don't want flames, but, as someone said, I'll stir the pot. capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll agree!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now if he were shooting some 139gr or 120gr X bullets it would shoot flatter, but with more blast and bite.

Mike

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />If he ever goes elk hunting he'll be ready! captdavid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If he ever goes elk hunting he'll "need" a ultra mag and 150 grain ballistic tips. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Friends have .270's. I have a 7 mag. Either is good for deer and elk. If he needs a muzzle brake on the 7, maybe he is afraid of it and will do worse. The 7 is not really that much flatter or hotter, if you put the bullet where it belongs, it works, of not, it doesn't matter what you used.

I suppose I'll get flamed no end for this, but I consider the majority of the magnums to be in the same class as the African big bores: I.E. specialized instruments for a very specific purpose-pretty much useless for -average- N.A. hunting.

Let me be the first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

While I agree that most (qualified because not all �magnums� are in the same class, i.e. the 350 Rem Mag vs the .300 RUM) magnums are unnecessary for deer, they are hardly as specialized as the African big bores and are anything but useless for the average hunter � at least not in my neck of the woods (Colorado).

I�ve been shooting a 7mm Rem Mag for over 23 years, and for the first 22 years it was my only bolt gun. Antelope, deer, elk, coyotes and prairie dogs all fell to 160g bullets. Ranges varied from a few yards to 350, and I could have reached further if needed. For some game I could have chosen a lighter bullet and really reached out there, but I chose instead to stick with my elk bullets � practice is practice, whether on paper or flesh.

Given the experience acquired over those 23 years, if I was to go back in time and buy another rifle that would be my only bolt gun hunting rifle for the next 20+ years, I would strongly consider a .300 Win Mag. Do I consider the new RUM cartridges necessary? Not really, but if I ever get a .338 or .375 I will consider the RUM versions. The nice thing about RUMs is you can load them down to prolong barrel life or load them up to potential as needed/desired.

My most recent addition was a .257 Roberts, which I plan to use on deer this coming December. I think this will work out to be an excellent rifle for antelope, deer and varmints, but even with +P loads I have decided not to try it on elk this year � the 7mm REM MAG is getting the nod again, with a Marlin .45-70 as backup..

Captdave, Not building any flames here, just stirring a little. I currently shoot a 338 rum, and yes it is way over kill for anything here in Tx, you are right on that, but. Last year I killed numerous deer, audad, and elk, that clients had wounded, at 500 plus yards. I realize that with any connecting shot at this range, there is alot of other variable involved, but at least at this distance, when my bullet gets there, it is packing alot more punch then a 270, or a 7mm. In the conditions that I am faced with every year, as mentioned above, you can keep your 270, Ill stick with what I know works, especially at long range.
Toby Joe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you, Pedestal1... that a magnum isnt' needed for DEER and, in most cases, not necessary for elk, caribou or moose either.



I'd choose the .270 Winchester using 130 grain bullets over a 7mm Rem. Mag. for deer because I am tired of the magnums beating me up at the benchrest. The recoil of a .270 Winchester is a lot more "pleasant" than the recoil of a 7mm Remington Magnum. By the same token, a 7mm Remington Magnum doesn't have all that much more recoil than a 180 grain bullet out of a .30/06 to me.



I hunted most of my adult life (40+ years) with a custom pre-'64 Model 70 in .338 Win. Mag... and with the possible exception for some Colorado elk and the 1500 lb. moose I shot on a fly-in trip into the "bush" in Canada, a .270 or .30/06 would have done everything I needed to do in all my hunting in Colorado, Michigan, Nebraska and Pennsylvania.



Year after year, I took the "beating" the .338 Win. Mag. handed me shooting it off the bench rest... and I finally had "enough"... and "retired" the big Winchester to an honored place in my gun cabinet.



Frankly, a .30/06 with 180 grain or a .270 with 150 or 160 grain Nosler Partition bullets would have done the same job my handloaded 210 grain Nosler Partition, .338 mag. did on the moose since I killed him with a single fatal shot through the spine @ 125 yards.



However, I assure you that a 180 grain bullet out of a .30/06 or a 150/160 grain bullet out of a .270 through the lungs would have also brought the big deer down just as surely... no doubt about it.



Moose and elk aren't bullet proof... it's shot placement that counts... as long as there is enough "bullet" and "velocity" to get the penetration needed to reach the vital organs.



I now hunt (whitetails only) with my handloaded 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets (at a chronographed 2680 fps) out of a fine old (1953) Model 99 Savage lever-action rifle in .300 Savage caliber... and it does an excellent job on deer. While the .300 Savage would take an elk or moose, I'd get close (under 100 yards if I could) and choose a 165 grain or 180 grain Nosler Partition for elk or moose if I decided to use the .300 Savage on them.



However, since I still have the Model 70 in .338 magnum, I'd undoubtedly use it for the larger animals if I still hunted them. Sorry, but I have a lot more confidence in a 210 grain Nosler Partition at 3,020 fps... or 225 grain Partition @ 2900 fps...or even a 250 grain Partition bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2760 fps.



The only possible exception to using the .300 Savage I might make is with the "big bears"... I have to be honest and say I'd much prefer a .338 Win. Mag. or a .375 H&H Magnum for them.



Now... that said... both my sons hunt deer with their own 7mm Remington Magnums... one has a 700 BDL Remington and the other has an all-weather new style Winchester Model 70... and they have what I consider an excellent "all-around" caliber for most kinds of hunting. However, one of my adult (over 40 years old) 200 lb. sons isn't real happy with the recoil of the 150 grain bullet out of his 7mm Rem. mag... and here we go again...





Strength & Honor...



Ron T.

Just to further the flame-potential, I believe in the maxim "you can never have too much truck" and apply that to most hunting situations also.

I've taken every deer so far with my trusty .264WM. This year I'm determined to get a deer with a different rifle so I'm taking both a .300WM and a .300 H&H.. One thing I've noticed with the .264: With only one exception and it happened this last year, every deer hit with that round has gone DOWN, and I mean right now!.

I've had the unfortunate task of tracking wounded deer from time to time (and YES, I know it's a matter of where you hit them) that have been taken with somewhat lesser calibers ranging from .257R, 30-30, .243, etc.. Each of these can and will and have taken deer successfully for decades. I just prefer a little more margin..

um, i am also a guilty party. just about the finest magnum ever made is made for deer. the 257 roy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
have 270'280 etc etc. but that thing just plain shoots lightning..........
woofer

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />I really think that you probably make my point. If one of your hunteres, for deer or audad, said that he was comfortable with his 270, but was buying a 7 mag and having a muzzle brake installed on it a week before season, what woukld you recomend? Also, I doubt that you encourage many of those 500yd shots on un-wounded game. Your gun is a tool for what you have to do, not what you would choose to do. capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Coyote Hunter:
Tobyjoeruby:
Ron T.
Not trying to start any flame wars, just I'm like everybody else-I have an opinion along with an A-hole... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Tobyjoeruby pretty much made my point. If you NEED to reach way out there, a good mag is good medicine. For me, I wouldn't shoot anything at 500yds-I'm not a good enough shot.
And at 350 yards? I'd still say it's more about doping the wind than trajectory of say a 7mag vs a .30-06.
And while I'm not particularly recoil sensitive (I enjoy my Mauser .45-70) I don't need to beat myself up either.
I do tend to limit my shots. The last deer I took last year was with a .357Max in a Martini Cadet action. Range was about 110 yds. I would not have taken that shot at 200 yds. I also suppose I'm fortunate, I don't HAVE to take a shot I don't like just to try to get a deer. There will always be another one by.
I've never hunted elk-something I'd REALLY like to do- but if I did, I'm sure I'd use a plain ol .30-06, or maybe a 6.5x55. And I still wouldn't take that shot I don't feel good about.
The thing is, most of the people on this board are NOT your average hunter. They're gun nuts. What was that term that JB used? Rifle looney? That is NOT your average hunter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Im not a fan of recoil either, I own many smaller calibers 270, 25-06, 257 stw, etc. I do have a muzzle break on the 338 rum, and I hate it, but the recoil is less then many of my smaller rifles. I make it a point to try to have hearing protection in the field. No I do not encourage the 500 yd shots, and will not let clients take them, whether shooting a 22-250, or a .50 bmg. These long range shots on my behalf, are a last ditch, to either save a long tracking job, or to save the client from having to either quit, or pay for another animal. Not in all instances, but I have a wound policy. On my sheep hunts especially, if you wound one, and he is not found, then you are done. Most people are all for me, or my guides backing them up. I dont know if any of you have ever hunted audad sheep, but they can soak up the lead, and get in some nasty stuff in a hurry. I am not hunting high fence animals. I use this big gun as a means of making my job easier, because in this business, I get alot not so average Joes, that pull their brand new gun out of the brand new box, the day they get into camp, then want me to sight it in for them, the day before the hunt. I agree with all of you, that it is overkill, and probably not necessary. If I put in the time with my other guns that I have put in with this rifle, Im sure that I could do the same things with them. But just like mentioned above, my opinion, is that I will stick with this rifle. I will probably be deaf and dumb before I am 50, but at least I will have alot of fun doing it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Toby Joe

Are magnums needed?
HECK NO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Are they fun for some?
OH YA! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The only problem I have with this situation is if a person buys something because he thinks it will improve his shooting and get him the magic long range shot.
Only practice will do that.
That being said, who am I to tell somebody what they should be shooting, unless they ask me for my opinion?
If some body wants to throw down the cash for a new rifle I say go ahead and fill yer boots!
application has nothing to do with most of the reasons we buy new rifles! (or hotrod old ones) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Catnthehat

I may get flamed for it (it wouldn't be the first time either), but I'm one of the people who believes that if you need a break on it to shoot it comfortably, then you should have just gotten a caliber that you could shoot more comfortably.

I use everything from a 243 to a 300RUM for whitetail hunting, and I'll tell anyone that asks that a magnum is completely unnecessary unless you're going to be one of the people who plan to shoot at deer from 800+yds away. A 270 or 30-06 will kill a deer a heck of a lot farther away than most people need to be shooting at them.

There are alot of people out there who can handle a magnum rifle and handle it well but there are alot of people who own big magnums who are afraid of the recoil and in the end the animals suffer because they don't spend the time at the range because the rifle kicks to hard. I was at the range when a fellow with a ultralight 7mm magnum had a miss fire. He literally vibrated in the shooting bench, it was flinch city and he was the mayor. If this guy thinks the recoil hurts think of the animals he is going to wound and wound needlessly. All he has to do is get a gun which he can shoot comfortably and enjoy practicing with it.
I would far sooner have a guy backing me with a .243 who could handle it well than a guy waving around a .338.
Oh by the way, 30-06 rules.

You are right about magnums not being needed for deer hunting . I took a small step down from a 7mm mag. to an 06 . Can't tell any differance in recoil or killing power but the 06 is in a smaller lighter package plus I save on some gun powder when reloading . I think 06s and 270s are to much gun for whitetail deer .

captdavid , What is the minimum cartridge you would use for whitetail deer ? I know of an oilfield worker in Freer Tx. that swears by his Rem. 721 in 257 Roberts and a ranch hand in Junction Tx. that thinks the 223 is the cats meow . I've seen deer killed with about anything that goes bang even a few killed with truck bumpers .

Deer are not hard to kill in my opinion .

I hope that this doesn't get too long. I killed my first deer over 40yrs ago. I have hunted with people who have seen thousands of deer killed. In my/there opinion the 257bob is the smallest that will eliminate most problems. The consensus is that the 243 will eventualy let you down. I think that this comes from too many inexperienced deer hunters and poor bullet choice. Most of these guys(guides) use a 223 for there personal meat gun, but have hundreds of shot possibilities. I use a 6.5x55 129gn, 708 140gnBT, 308 150gnPP, 308 150gnsst and 30-06 165gnBT. All are shot between 2700 & 2900 fps and except for the 308 PP are capable of taking deer to 300yds or a little more by aiming at hair. All are shot 2" high at 100yds except for the 308 PP which is shot in 1" high. All, with that one exception, caryy more energy at 300yds than the 30-30 does at 50yds. The 7-08 and 308 are 700VSLs and the 7-08 is my desigated long range stand gun. The 308 PP is my desigated pig head/ear and deer meat gun. Which one do I carry most of the time? The 308 PP of course, unless I know my shots are going to be over 200yds which is rare. As you can see I use soft fast expanding bullets. I believe that most energy on the other side of the deer is wasted. With few exceptions I try for H/L shots. Most die within feet of where the are shot. Longest shot, 30-06 pig 250yds neck/throat ran 30yds blead to death and deer 225yds shoulder/heart small exit on rib. It dropped on the spot. That was a [email]150BT2950[/email] and the reason I changed to 165gn. If All was lost amd I bought one gun, It would be a 7-08 Remington 7-08 w/ 24" barrel. hope this helps, capt david. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess that it might be like the horsepower issue; if you can't handle what you have, its way too much. See guys all the time that move up to biggester rifles because last year's didn't drop Bambi in his traks. Problem is, a flinchy shooter who shoots 10 shots a year ain't gonna get a whop/drop unless the critter happens to get struck by lightning!

I've hunted most of my life with a 308, but this year am going down to a 257 roberts because my little old BSA in that caliber is so much fun to shoot. Oh, I won't be trying any 350yd or through the bush shots, but figure that if I am patient, one shot will be quite enough.