Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Question on Gun Registration

This morning, I went into a pawn shop that carries a good selection of guns. While I was there, a customer purchased a handgun.

The customer filled out the form that goes to the BATF or whoever it goes to.

I talked to the owner for a few minutes and he said that once a month a deputy sheriff comes into his shop, and all the shops in this county that sells guns and the (the gun store) gives a copy of all of these forms to the deputy.

I asked if this wasn't a type of resistration and he said that it wasn't, just their way of keeping up withy guns that might be stolen.

I said that they still have a record of anyone who purchased a gun in that county and if they wanted to confiscate all the guns in the county, or at least all that had been purchased for the last several years, the sheriff had a record and name and address of probably most of the gun owners in that county.

Plus, if someone comes from another county and purchases a gun, the sheriff of this county has a record of purchasers living in other counties.

I thought this was a form of registration and was illegal.

Could someone who has legal knowledge or anyone who knows anything about this clarify this?

I was told by a pawn broker that he has to get guns taken in from the public checked by the S.D. before resale to see if they were stolen, other than that, no local involvement.

Where was this?

This is probably illegal, all the pawn shop owner need to give the sheriff is the SN'S of the guns sold and no other information unless one of the SN'S shows up as being stolen then he could legally supply the Sheriff the rest of the info. This needs to be reported to the NRA Legal service and let their lawyers check on this practice.

Perhaps someone with legal extertise could clarify. I'm a retired leo and I remember the rules for pawn shops were different to prevent them from being fences for stolen property. I was able to go into a pawn shop and check records on firearms transactions. The problem with only checking if a gun was stolen at the time of purchase is that not all thefts are discovered or reported immediately. I never kept records of any transactions that did not involve criminal activity.

Around here you have to get a purchase permit (unless you posess a CWP) from the sheriff's department before aquiring a handgun...

None of it is registration as long as private party sales with no legal obligation of record keeping remain legal. Even the BATF form is only a record that you purchased a gun on a certain day. There is no legal reason you couldn't have sold it immediately. The whole record-keeping thing keeps a lot of folks employed.

I don't think that purchase or sale by a pawn shop is considered a private party sale.

"Even the BATF form is only a record that you purchased a gun on a certain day."

Even if it is a legal purchase from an FFL dealer, that dealer is required to give a copy of the BATF form to the deputy?

It might keep a lot of people employed, but it also is a record kept by the sheriff's department of everyone living in that county who has purcheased a firearm, whether they sold it to someone else or not.

It is also a record held by the sheriff's office of everyone who comes into that county from outside that county and purchases a firearm.

With a CC permit, the dealer is not required to do a background check, but you still have to fill out the yellow form and the dealer has to give a copy of the form to the sheriff's deputy.

The city of Lincoln Nebraska requires certain retail guns sales to be registered with the local Lincoln Police Department.

Here is the ordinance:

http://lincoln.ne.gov/city/attorn/lmc/ti09/ch936.pdf



You ought to read section 9.36.100 since it is retroactive.

Keep in mind that the 2nd Amendment has not been incorporated yet against local and state governments.


You ought to read this thread.

City of Lincoln infringes on 2nd Amendment

Check out North Carolina--
I believe permits are issued by the local Sheriff. Note that Crossbows require the same permit. These are owner permits and not CWP's.

B. North Carolina Requirements
North Carolina's pistol permitting and concealed carry permit laws qualify as an
alternative to the requirements of the Brady Law. Therefore, when a person desires to
purchase a handgun from a federally-licensed dealer, the person needs to comply solely with
North Carolina's pistol permit laws, and present a valid permit to purchase a handgun or
valid North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit. (Please note: Even if a NICS inquiry
by a federally-licensed dealer was done in this circumstance, it does not do away with the
necessity for a pistol purchase permit.) As always, any other transfer between private
individuals is also governed by North Carolina's pistol permit laws.

Under North Carolina law, it is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to sell,
give away, transfer, purchase, or receive, at any place in the state, any pistol, unless the
purchaser or receiver has first obtained a license or permit to receive such a pistol by the
sheriff of the county where the purchaser or receiver resides, or the purchaser or receiver
possesses a valid North Carolina-issued concealed carry permit. This requirement to obtain
a permit prior to the transfer of a pistol applies not only to a commercial transaction,
typically at a sporting goods store, but also between private individuals or companies
throughout North Carolina. N.C. Gen. Stat. � 14-402(a)

In addition, this State law has been interpreted to require that a pistol permit be
obtained by the receiver of a handgun when such person inherits a pistol as a result of the
death of another person. The permit should be given to and retained by the seller or donor
of the handgun. In such a case, the permit should be given to the executor or receiver of
the estate of the deceased person. If the purchaser or receiver uses a North Carolina- issued
concealed carry permit for the transfer, the seller should reference such permit on a bill of
sale.

The permit requirements set out for the purchase or receipt of handguns in North
Carolina also applies to the purchase, receipt, selling, giving away, or transfer of any
crossbow. Therefore, prior to a person receiving a crossbow, the sheriff must issue a permit
1A �crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one (1) year,� as discussed in C. (1) and (2)
above, is defined in federal law so as to exclude most misdemeanors in North Carolina. Domestic violence
misdemeanors discussed on the next page are disqualifying misdemeanors under federal law. 18 U.S.C. � 922(d)
in the same manner as if the individual was receiving a pistol. N.C. Gen. Stat. � 14-402(a)

A crossbow is defined as a mechanical device consisting of, but not limited to, strings,
cables, and prods transversely mounted on either a shoulder or hand-held stock. This device
is mechanically held at full or partial draw, and released by a trigger or similar mechanism,
which is incorporated into a stock or handle. When operated, the crossbow discharges a
projectile known as a bolt. A bolt is defined as a projectile made to be discharged from a
crossbow and differs from an arrow in that the bolt is heavier and shorter. N.C. Gen. Stat.
� 14-402(c)(2-3

No sale by an entity with an FFL is considered a private party sale. That's not the point. The point is that FFL dealers and any other person/organization can keep any record they want, but that's all it is, a record of a sale at a certain point in time. There is no Federal legal obligation to keep records of sales between private parties, therefore there is no way to tell whether the firearm so-recorded is still in the possession of the individual who purchased it. Therefore, there is no registration.

State and local ordinances, notwithstanding.

When I lived in Denver in the '60s and '70s, when you bought a firearm the dealer filled out a form specifically for the Denver PD.

I assume nobody challenged it.

Paul

1234567, in what State do you live??

L.W.

Amazes me how many think there is a 'gun registration'. Took my CCW class this weekend, an older guy was there, was discussing why's and what's, he made the statement "Now I've got one pistol, but its registered to me, its all legal like." Well, we live in Missouri, no registration at all. I'm sure he meant he bought it at a dealer, filled out the 4473, and thought that meant registered.

The bad part is, he is probably closer to right than I am, here I think I'm living in Camelot.

I own a pawn shop in Tennessee. All i have to do is give the locals sheriffs office a copy of everything that is pawned or bought by my shop. they get no record on my sales as it is none of thier buisness. we email them a report everyday. We have to hold even things we buy for 20 days.

Those ATF forms are Governmnt Document, By law they stay with the FFL holder untill he stops dealing in firearms. All local law Enforcment can get is records of purchase By the Pawn Shop. Example, Joe Sleeze goes in and sells a 1911 he tells the pawn shop guy thjat his Daddy left it to him and he really hates to sell it but he has toi pay the rent or some other BS story. The pawn Broker then has Joe sleeze fill out a sales recipt with his name address and all pertenante SS numbers from the pistol. at the end of the month or week thes sales reciepts are turned over to the local LEO office and the firearms are checked NCIC if one hits as stolen then the LEagency can recover it as stolen property and they have some iunfo to go on as to who sold the property to the Pawn dealer. THAT IS AS FAR ASD ANY FIREARMS RECORDS NEED TO GO TO THE GOVERNMENT!! In fact as I recall an amendment passed a few years ago referance to that very matter, if the Local SO is getting records of sales by a FFL holder it is against FEDERAL LAW! Call the local ATF office and check on it. You have not stated what area this is going on in and some state laws have differant elliments that may or may not supercede fed regs.

I believe the crossbow permit requirement in NC will be coming up for a vote along with Sun. bow hunting on private property. Hope the state legislature develops some common sense & votes to drop the crossbow permit requirement. All because of some sort of drug related accident years ago. I don't believe any sheriff's office can require a list of handgun purchases by name. I would never purchase a HG under these conditions.

We got a copy of (if we wanted it) and a look at who was pawning property. The idea was to find stolen property. We did NOT care who pawned it otherwise and no permanent records were kept unless the item to include firearms, were determined to have been stolen. The legitimate pawn dealers did not want stolen property as it was confinscated and went with the police as evidence for future prosicution. To keep every record and serial number was too difficult and very impractical to do. We were only interested in theives and criminals using the pawn shops to eliminate evidence or stolen property.

The right to do so was incorparated by City (or County) Ordinance and to stay open all the pawn shops had to comply. I'm not saying this cannot be used against legitimate gun owners but in 31 years I do not know of anyone prosicuted for pawning a legitimately owned firearm or using this information against a citizen who legitimately pawned an item. YMMV. kwg

Check out the link at the bottom of my previous post. The Lincoln Police department used their gun purchasing records to confiscate hunting firearms based on a new retroactive city ordinance that prohibited certain people from possessing firearms in the city. They basically cross referenced the firearm registrations with their police records going back ten years and began knocking on doors and confiscating guns. These guns were legally purchased and possessed in the city of Lincoln before the new ordinance was passed in 2006.

kwg020

This is not about people pawning guns or redeaming them. It is about being made to give the local sheriff a copy of the Federal BATF form.

I thought that form was to be kept by the dealer and turned in to the ATF when and if the dealer closed his business.

It this pawn shop, people also purchase guns and some people pawn and redeem them. It is the purcharsers whose information is given to the local sheriff.

This has nothing to do with stolen property. The pawn shop legally sells the gun to a purchaser. The purhaser's information is then given to the local sheriff. The sheriff knows everyone in the county who owns a gun.

I thought when the gun control act, I believe of 1968, this form was not to be used as registration, but when a copy of it is given to the local sheriff, that seems to be like registration.

As long as it is legal for me to own a gun, I don't see where it is anyof the sheriff's business if I do.

What if, instead of the dealer giving a copy to the deputy, there was a local law requiring you to, when you legally purchased a gun , that you had to take it to the local sheriff and have the make, caliber, and type, and serial number and also your name, address and SSN put on a form that the sheriff's department kept.

The way it is done in this county, you provide the information, the gun dealer provides a copy, and the deputy sheriff collects it. Once a month.

Same thing. The sheriff's office knows you bought a gun, what kind, and who your are. If they decided to confiscate every gun in the county, all they would have to do is get out their records and go door to door, collecting guns. Didn't something similiar happen in Nazi Germany?

Some of you people are not reading, or understanding, what I wrote in the origial post.

I thought the entire purpose of some of the legislation the NRA fought for was to prevent registration of personnal firearms by some government body.

Is what I described not registration?