Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles AR vs. Mini 14 question

I have a DPMS sportical I haven't fired yet. Due to everything I've been reading about cleaning regimens due to the gas system, and the switch to piston systems, I was wondering how the Minis with their piston type M14 systems hold up and their reliability. Was going to trade but my local gun shop owner said I'd be disappointed. Thoughts?

I've got a mini and also an AR.

The mini is a heartbreaking disappointment all the way around. On average the mini's turn in 6" groups at 100 yards and if the stars align just right for some few folks you can get it down to 4". Or you can send it in for 800 to 1200 dollars and have it rebuilt with a bull barrel.

In addition- I never did like how the mini magazine locks up. And I never liked the lack of good low cost magazines either.

As to the AR, just clean it and lube it.

The advantage of the mini was initial cost... back when they could be had for less than 400 bucks. But now I don't see any advantage to them.

That is what I think. Good luck.

Minis have always been a spray-and-pray deal past 100 yards... unless you buy one of the accurized ones. All things considered, I'd spend my money on an AR.

Seems to me that the piston system in a semi-auto AR used by civilians is a solution in search of a question. The military and full auto may be different.

I might consider it if it ever becomes standardized, but the thought of having a military style firearm that does not use easily available parts would concern me. Break a part in a gas impingement AR and literally hundreds of vendors will carry the replacement.

Flame on.

I may be one of the rare people that like both rifles.

The older model Ruger mini-14's where very inaccurate, The new one's are pretty good rifles. The last one I owned would shoot 1.5"-2" groups at 100yds all day long. Reliable and easy to carry are trade marks of the Mini-14. That said, if it had to be one or the other I would take an AR-15 over a Mini-14 any day of the week. The AR has the advantage of more product development than a Mini-14. The gas system on an AR-15 is a non existant problem and doesn't need replaced. It works beautifully and cleans itself. Carbon build up on the bolt is the only thing you'll need to clean besides regular maintanance. That said you'll need to clean and lube any rifle you buy.

Enjoy your AR-15.

Terry

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Guess I'll put the scope back on and head for the range this week.

I was not aware there had been a switch to piston systems for ARs. I must not have gotten the memo. So which one of the umpteen prioprietary non-interchangeable piston system is the winner and the holy grail of the AR-15 switches?

Do I have to send in my ARs to get them switched? Is so, where or can I buy standard parts to do it myself, like I do everything else on my rifles?

But seriously, if this is what's keeping you from enjoying your AR, put your mind at rest. Learn the AR system, learn how to clean it and maintain it, (it's very easy) and go out and shoot it. And then be thankful it's not a Mini-14. While it is a decent plinker, it is not what I would qualify as a rifle, far too inaccurate.

I'd keep the AR. I have had 3 mini's; I still have one, mostly for nostalgia's sake. They are ultra reliable with factory magazines, but iffy with aftermarket. Factory magazines are expensive compared to AR mags. Their accuracy in the older factory original condition is mediocre at best. The tube in older versions has a 1/12 twist, which makes using any ammo with bullets heavier than 60 grains problematic. Their ergonomics are not as good as the AR, but if you're familiar with the M1A/M14 they are very similar. They cost almost as much as a good AR. As was mentioned earlier, the logistics of owning an AR compared to a Mini make much more sense, with literally hundreds of vendors available for spare or aftermarket parts, and the ability to install them with a few simple tools. The Mini-not so much.

If I had to choose between them, I would go with the AR hands down. I most definitely would not trade my AR for one. Just my opinion, and I'm sure there are others who have different ones.

I have only owned two over the years and both would only shoot MOPlywood, good guns and functioned well but not for me. I have heard the new ones are fair shooters but why chance it.

I've got an old Mini-14 (180 prefix) and a couple good AR's. I like the mini, it's always been ultra reliable, has always shot everything fed it with no problems and little to no maintenance for years at a time. I find it an earier rifle to carry in the field than an AR. As most here have said, accuracy stinks.

My AR's are bughole accurate. They've always functioned well without an exessive amount of maintenance.

All in all, if I had to choose one over the other my choice would be the AR.

The worst AR is better than the best mini IMHO.

As to carrying, I'm so used to the AR platform now that its second nature in my hands....

Keep the AR.

BMT

i would agree as well keep the ar, minis are fun to shoot if you not worried about hitting the same spot more than once, super reliable weapons they are, but as stated numerous time they shoot a pattern at a 100 not a group Ron

You will never find any love for the Mini-14 platform here. There is an ingrained bias, fueled by internet myth that just won't go away.
I like my 188 Series rifle. It is accurate enough, +/- two inches at 100 yards. It is easily as reliable as an AR, if not more so, and will shoot any ammo you put through it.
I recently changed optics, and am using a Vortex Strikefire now. This is a decent sight, and although not an Aimpoint, and despite not using a LaRue mount, it functions fine.

Sam

of course no love here.. your example is a point, 1-2 inches at 100 is about teh worst an AR would do, not the best. Plus I've never seen a failure to function thats not related to cleaning my gun every 500 rounds or so, yes mine run for 500 plus before they might be an issue.

Jeff

The Kel Tec SU-16 is cheaper and better than either, IMHO. At the very least, in terms of reliability.

My Ars have never jammed on me once I have them broken in... Don't know how much more reliable one can get... until I forget to put powder or primer in a reload....

We had a mini ranch rifle for the cattle farm in northern MN and I couldn't keep the scope zero'd on the thing. Finally my dad told me to sell it.
A cheap AR, like a oly plinker, is far better than a mini. Tax protestors liked mini's though...

Sam, Darn nice looking mini. no complaints here on the strikeforce, I have one on an AR and it has done very well for its intended use and for the price and warranty offered.

FWIW I love the look of the mini, as I love and have about 2 M1As in the safe... just isn't worth making it accurate enough to please me... I"m too anal I know. But I don't enjoy having anything that isn't accurate.

I sent a TC renegade 54 barrel back once... it shot 3-4 inches at 100, best I could do, they sent it back with a similar test target fired at 75 saying they found nothing wrong with a 3.5 inch group..... of course that barrel is a tomato stake to me.

Jeff

Or possibly by experience with the firearm in question. I've had 3, all were ultra reliable with factory magazines, and all had mediocre accuracy with both factory ammunition and handloads, especially when compared to an AR. You must have gotten a good one; some of us never have.

sho..,

Your local dealer was right. He's probably got more feed back from shooters than any of us. And most of us feel the same way he did.

O

its amusing to read the threads of folks spending bucks to make their AR rifles shoot better. Everyone praises that, and chimes in.
Yet let someone spend a few bucks to make a Mini more accurate, and its laughed at.
For the price of a LaRue mount and rings, a good gun smith can make a Mini shoot as well as all but match target AR rifles.

now let me add that I have just the one Mini-14. I have 5 AR rifles, Two Colts, Two Bushmasters, and my newer one by Spikes Tactical. I have spent a of money on them, in parts, optics and work. Frankly, I like the AR better than the Mini, but I am not so blinded that I can't see merit in my Mini.

I'll bet you that hands down every day, I can take a rack grade AR15 rifle with open sights and ammo and shoot a better group than a rack grade mini wiht irons and ammo. Thats about as cheap as it gets.

You don't need a larue mount on an AR, that doesn't do any better than a cheap mount, you'd probably be surprised that my testing platform is a Tasco in a cheap carry handle mount that I snug with a pair of pliers... don't laugh, I"ve shot some WAY under .5 moa groups at 600 yards that way.

Once you go to accurizing anything its all a matter of what you want, but then the bottom line to that is that I can spend some bucks on upgrading an AR and you can on a mini, and you'll still have inferior accuracy. You can go buy a Krieger tube set up for the AR, put it on, without a float tube and without trigger work and be shooting half moa or less groups almost every time.
What will a mini do with a new barrel and no other work?

Probably not. That said, sometimes 1/2 MOA groups aren't needed for the job at hand. My last Mini would do 1.5"-2" groups at 100yds all day as stated above. Plenty good for a stalking rifle. I would venture a guess that the majority of the people that post here couldn't take adavantage of a 1/2 MOA rifle shooting off hand anyway. I couldn't.

Terry

Quite simply, Minis suck. Back when they first came out we all bought 'em cause they looked like the 14s a lot of us shot in the service and shot in the service rifle matches... however, not only were the danged things horribly inaccurate but there was apparently a trick to getting a magazine in or out of the darned things that Bill Ruger refused to share with us. NEXT came the "Mini-30" mess...heck, a Chinese AK is more accurate than a Mini chambered for 7.62X39 and a LOT easier to load. And don't believe for a minute that "Accuracy Systems" can make those sow's ears shoot like silk purses either! A grand later and my folly of good money after bad is sitting in the back of the gun safe because, indeed, only accurate rifles are interesting. DO yourself a favor and stay away from one of Ruger's few mistakes.

Pecos

Putting money into making a Mini-14 shoot well, is like giving a Chevy Chevette an expensive coat of paint.

You're telling ME?!!??!?

the better the gun shoots, even in offhand, the closer you are to center each time..

And yep, i've said before that I"m anal, but an innaccurate rifle just does me no good. I couldn't or wouldn't own a 2 moa rifle though it would do just fine to what most would consider longer range, IE 500 yards thats a 10 inch group.... that would kill most anything. Though it would make 300 yard head shots kinda tough.

And we don't all shoot only offhand. I won't shoot offhand at game unless its my only choice.

Well ya know, there is a thread on this same page about a pencil barrel AR that'll pull 2" groups and it seems to be fine with the crowd. What's the difference? 2" is 2" to me.

Peco's, an AK-47 isn't more accurate than a Mini-14.

The Mini-14 is what it is. It's not a 500yd rifle and I don't think it was ever represented as one. No need to put any money into it but if you want to, Accuracy Systems is a fine choice. I've seen thier work and know it's good. The above comments by the other poster about A/S are just more misinformation. This thread already has plenty.

Don't get me wrong, I would take an AR over a Mini anyday of the week. That said, I've owned a reasonably accurate Mini-14 and like the rifle. Nuff said.

Terry

Terry, right to the point. 2" is 2" and it would be fine for pretty much all hunting within range. Sometimes we all get a mind set and can't seem to get out of that way of thinking.
As I said, I have owned two in the past and neither would shoot good groups and at the time the magazines were way over priced, I choose to go back to the AR platform.

Has anyone shot the "new" mini's that are out now?

Jimmy, I had one of the 580 series rifles. These were made after the line was "re-tooled" but before they started putting heavier barrels on them. It was a nice rifle. The accuracy was exceptable for it's intended purpose.



Terry

I don't want a skinny barrel that will shoot 2 inches either, you are right, 2 is 2 regardless. 2 inches means the barrel sucks IMHO.
2 inches gives me a 4 inch group at 200 and I do take a lot of 200 plus yard head shots while deer hunting. That would mean I'd have to hold the gun perfectly still and such. Won't work for me anyway.

And to be honest, part of the mini issues is that they are Ruger to start with. Fact that Ruger sold his soul to the devil to keep the mini off the ban list while not standing with the ARs and others, volunteered for 10 round mags and other sleeping with the antis... Have not been able to forgive them for that yet either.

TC1... if you are laboring under the mistaken impression that the average run of the mill 7.62X39 Mini will shoot better than...or even as well as... an average, run of the mill Chinese 7.62X39 AK, it is my guess that you haven't had broad experience with either side by side at the range.

Pecos

Now I'll jump on the other side, I've shot a few AKs, and own an milled polytech 'NM' one, a good mini will shoot circles around all the AKs I've shot though my nephew claims he has one that shoots really well.
Really well has been through a handful of SKS instead for me.

I am compraring 7.62X39 Minis to 7.62X39 AKs or even SKSs. Every 7.62X39 Mini that I have woked on (maybe seven to date) has shot more of a pattern than a group. It is FAR easier to make an AR shoot less than an inch than ANY caliber of Mini. If you don't require that level of accuracy, go with a Mini if you like...and if you don't care about banging your hands up trying to get a magazine in or out of the darned things. Not to mention the outrageous price of factory magazines!

I still like the way they look and there is that A-TEAM nostalgia thing. Further, they feel really good when you put them in a Hogue "overmolded".

Pecos

A team nostalgia.... I hadn't thought of that at all.... but have said I like em cause they remind me of a proper M14, but I've got 3 of the M1As built up in the safe so no need for the mini.

Still have a severe dislike for the AK platform totally.

Thanks for all the feedback. It seems like the AR is the way to go but, after reading the last three pages, i'm confused again. I do like the look and feel of the Mini, and had no problem with the magazine while at the store. Ans with a 1" riser and a Burris 2-7 scope, the AR looks sharp. Arrgghhh!

It�s hard to compare an AR to a Mini-14 even though the comparison has been done since day one. The Mini-14 is not a military rifle, plain and simple; it�s a rather robust sporting rifle. Although it has seen its share of use by many military units all over the world in the �70�s and �80�s, most everyone has discovered the fact that the Mini-14 is not a military grade rifle. As a rough duty sporting rifle, it�s great and the added firepower makes it appropriate to double as a civilian defensive rifle. The only part of the Mini-14 that could be considered superior to the AR is the magazine�the Mini-has a PROPER 30 round magazine (talking Ruger factory magazine here), and not that straight but curved abomination our soldiers have had to live with for that past 40 years. Other than that, in a military or defensive role, the Mini-14 is greatly inferior to even the commercial AR�s. With all that said, I�m still a big fan of the Mini-14, because it fits its intended role very well. I like the traditional stock configuration very much.

The AR is first and foremost, a military rifle that has been in service with the US for 40+ years. In all those years, we�ve learned every inch of the AR and what makes it tick or not tick. Outside of military service, NO rifle will get that level of scrutiny. Most commercial manufacturers of AR�s incorporate most of the features the military has identified as improvements to the design (but not all do). As a result, you�ll generally find that a lower grade AR (within reason here, not talking �Bob�s� AR�s) will tend to work better and break less than your average Mini-14 in a defensive or para-military type rile.

Still, I�d trust a GI M1 Carbine over either one.

What you're talking about is a mini-30, not a mini-14 and no I'm not "laboring" about anything at the moment.

Terry

Man..,

If your response is directed to me please allow a reply. I've never spent anything,other than a red dot and mounts, to get my AR's to shoot 1 1/2" groups. Early on, a friend thought he could come up with bargain basement shooters by having 2 Mini 14's rebarreled by some outfit in Texas. God knows what he spent but , when they functioned, he got 4 to 6 inch groups. Worse than would be expected from a wallyworld .22 rimfire. He offered to trade me both Mini's for my box stock Colt AR with it's red dot scope. I declined.

Thru the years I've had a number of various Ruger products. Only one, a 6mm #1, inpressed me with it's accuracy. I HAVE spent hundreds of dollars to get a #3 to shoot accurately. Ruger did a complete rebuild on my single six and I just spent $70 to get a .30 Carbine Blackhawk PROPERLY RECHAMBERED.

I've seen numerous Mini 14's and Ar's fired at my range. Hands down, the average out of the box AR outshoots the average Mini by a factor of 100. If I am blinded by anything it's how Ruger has a loyal following and how they've stayed in business.

I can afford most things within reason. Currently, I am building 2 AR's for my grandsons. I am not blinded to the merits of anything, conversely I seek them out. Mini's were never considered. This is just my experience. Yours may vary.

O

Yes, a mini-30 is what I was talking about as I thought it was reasonable to compare guns that fired the same caliber when comparing platforms. I certainly don't feel my sample of maybe seven mini-30s is the end of the discussion but the fact that all of them shot poorly established at least a trend from my point of view! The Mini-14s shoot better than the 30s I think because a .223 (when bullet weight is properly matched to twist)seems to be one of those "inherently accurate" cartridges we talk about. If you have discovered a method for tightening a Mini-30s group PLEASE share it with me and I will indeed be in your debt.

Pecos

We do cling to our guns and religion don't we... LOL

As I've said before, the first Mini 14 I owned hit nearly everything I pointed it at. Then I made the mistake of scoping it and patterning it, not pretty. Bought at least 5 others through the years until I bought my first AR. Wouldn't throw down a mini 14 in a have to situation but it wouldn't be my first pick either.

Shootinurse, UHHH.... this thread has degenerated into a how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin deal and I feel I may be a part of the reason. Mini-14s are safe, well built rifles that have been around for years. If you like the way they look and feel, DO NOT LET ME talk you out of buying the rifle you really want! Then put it in a HOGUE Overmoulded stock and it will feel so good you will have a hard time putting back in the safe at night. Ruger even makes a target version with a B.O.S.S. barrel device. Is it easier to make an AR shoot under an inch? Yeah, but is that what you are buying it for? If it is get Mini with the B.O.S.S. device.

It is not like this is the last rifle you will ever buy. In the end you will end up with at least one of each as such is the nature of our hobby. If you doubt that, just go back and read this thread and see how many of us admit to the pain/joy of having Minis AND ARs. The only way to correctly deal with this addiction is to buy the gun you really want or you will not be satisfied with what you buy. Ask me how I know...

Pecos

PS Please don't mistake my earlier post as a endorsement of the AK platform. I hate the darned things for a number of reasons. If, God forbid, I ever have the misfortune to be in a gun fight, I pray that I have an AR and the other guy has an AK. For what it is worth, my twenty-one year old son is a deployed Marine and he agrees with me.

Thanks, Pecos. It's all part of the shooting game, that we have our own ideas, and experiences to back them up. I've been confused more than once, and stymied a couple times, but I haven't let it hold me back. Slows me down some, but that has worked out well for me over the years. It's entertaining as well.

(Also, I don't expect a light 16" barrelled Sportical will shoot sub-moa.)

y'all think this is a good argument.... go to southern airboats where I hang out a lot and ask if an aircraft boat or a car motor boat is better!!!!

I don't own either rifle in this topic- never have. (I did carry one for about three years back in the 70's).

However, when a question like this is posted on a forum titled "AR15 Rifles".... well it is kinda like dangling red meat in front of some hungry dogs.

I do enjoy a good debate about rifles tho,
Gary

(Also, I don't expect a light 16" barrelled Sportical will shoot sub-moa.)[/quote]

Don't make that statement too quickly! Tell us what twist you are dealing with (1 in 7 I hope) and let us give you some loads for SMKs. Then scrub the barrel to bare metal, shoot a couple of fouling shots, mount your best scope on the gun and maybe add a JP trigger. Shoot off a solid rest and report back to us.

Pecos

There is really no other place to post the question on the 'fire. There is no forum for these types of rifles.
We talk about AKs, Minis, M1A, Garands...................

The one issue that has not been touched with this discussion, is the purpose for which the rifle will be used, and it's suitability for that purpose.

Most here do one of two things, or perhaps both things, with their AR rifles.
Punch paper, and shoot coyotes & other furry things.

Not often is the third purpose, which is a rifle suitable for social work.
If your goal is a reliable weapon that is minute of bad guy accurate at CQB, and out to 200 yards, then the Mini works well.
Frankly I don't care much for paper punching.

This is neither here nor there but as of late the "retro" tv channel has been running old "A Team" shows. Those dudes used Mini-14's quite a bit, and on full-auto, at that. Then again, they didn't seem very good about actually hitting the bad guys...

But what's the story on the full-auto versions? Did Ruger develop them in hopes of getting a military contract? Or is it just Hollywood fiction?

It's called a Ruger AC-556. Yes it's a real gun.

Terry

Ah, thanks. Ruger must have been trying to win military contracts, I suspect. It's a shame it didn't gel; they seem like they would be halfway decent rifles at a good price. Maybe closer to an AK than an AR in functionality but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

A full auto "Mini-14" was indeed made by Ruger and was identified as the model AC556. Many were sold to Latin American militaries and many MANY foreign and domestic PDs also obtained them. I have seen photos, long before the days of "PhotoShop", depicting so called "sterile" examples w/o serial numbers that were allegedly made for alphabet government agencies which then distributed same to "freedom fighters" who agreed with American policies.

There are several examples in the Class Three registry and are transferable to qualified individuals. They are REALLY fun to shoot but like all MGs get hot FAST. My recollection is that they were PARTICULARLY susceptible to "cookoffs" where the chamber gets so hot a round ignites in the chamber w/o the necessity of a firing pin hitting the primer.

Pecos

I actually can't use it in Pa. for hunting. Semi-autos have been a no-no for longer than the 44yrs. I've been hunting. Basically a plinking, just-in-case, pissed-about-the-election, and concerned-about-the-future purchase. And it's a 1:9 twist.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/archive/index.php/f-106.html

The perfect union fellows are gracious as can be and true believers in the mini-14.

Bottom line in my mind though is this; the thing needs a heftier barrel and properly machined gas block to go with it. But then you are back to square one with magazines. Its just a losing proposition for the long haul in my opinion.

If Ruger had any brains they would just chunk a better barrel in it,(and proper gas block) skip the pimped out thumbhole stock and sell em for 200 bucks below an average AR-15. If they reworked the action somehow to accept AR-15 mags all the better. I'd buy one!

IMHO, Mini's feel GREAT in the hands. I really like that about them. The one I had shot poorly, especially once hot. It was reliable though. Since you guys are talking AC556's I had a few factory 20's marked for those... forget the details, but I remember they were easy to sell for big bucks when I sold the rifle!

AR's are a far superior rifle IMHO. I've had a few AR15's and a DPMS LR308. All were very accurate. My big DPMS would routinely put TEN shots sub-moa! Couldn't believe it; in fact it kind of pissed me off, because I work HARD to get my bolt guns to do that, and here this big ugly beast does it box-stock... my current AR, a Bushy in M4 pattern, easily holds 1.5" at 100 yards.

I still want another mini someday. You guys mention mags as a negative for them; isn't Rugrr selling 20's to civvies now?

Yes, Ruger sells 20 rnd mags to the public and are now offering factory 30 rounders again.

DixieFreedomz, the mini-14 now comes with a heavier barrel on the standard model. They also sell a heavy barreled model. The gas block tolerences are supposed to be better now they have re-tooled the line.

One thing you can do to help accuracy is check and adjust the torque settings on the gas block.

Terry

sometimes I get to thinking we have lost our way with the AR's, the first one I had an SP-1 pencil barrel, LW perfect for the .223 cartridge. Now many tote 9 pound guns with 16.5 inch barrels, and more gizmo's than a cadillac escalade. The new mini's have got me thinking as they always shouldered and pointed faster for me.

The AR platform definitely deserves a really good light barrel. And that could be done. Turning a heavy one down doesn't always work for accuracy though if done correctly usually will.

I know we turned a barrel way down once, for a Jr rifle and it worked fine. But was an MOA or over tube to start with and remained so, a pull off of a colt Hbar IIRC.

A nice short 16-20 thin barrel, plain AL or fiber float tube, but with maybe a mini rail for those that just have to, but not a quad rail... and a flat top with riser, and just a good solid light buttstock..... That gun should be light and easily capable of something like .75 moa pretty easy.

Still wish John would commit to a run of thin barrels...

I could see a 16 with a scope on it above my visor in the truck forever.....

Jeff, I just threw the Leupold 1.5-5 CD in the Talbot QD mount (heavy) on my pencil barrel gun and total weight with gun/scope and a 20 rounder loaded was right at 7lbs. I'm sure this will be less once the LaRue mount gets here but the Talbot was all I had handy at the moment.
I am thinking this is going to be about as light as I can get it, I thought about the Ace stock and a carbon fiber handguard but I don't think there would be any weight savings.

By all means, keep at John about doing a run of pencil barrels, he just did not seem real enthused when he and I spoke about this, his concern was above all "accuracy" and I understand his feeling sthere.

IF he did a run of turned down barrels somehow BEFORE rifling it wouldn't be an issue. Its when they turn em after that can be an issue.

With a float tube there is no barrel tension anywhere. Of course the gas block hanging off is a weight issue, but while I see steel gas blocks I often wonder if an AL block couldn't be made suitable, or at least a block that is steel but ONLY covers just the most bare amount RE weight issues.

I"ll have to see if I can get time to email him today and see what he says.

The ability to do it is there, but then the cost issues may make it tough... Of course it may take a call to Wilson or the like, maybe they could pre turn the countours, leaving enough for the chamber and gas block, and then drill and rifle... might have to be a 100 barrel order though... lots to think about there.

Jeff

The accuracy potential of bull vs pencil barrels has always fascinated me. The TWO things that I KNOW affect accuacy the most in either Minis or ARs are the quality of the rifleing and the CROWN of the barrel in either a bull or a pencil. There is definitely something to this barrel harmonics thing as proven by the B.O.S.S. unit on a .300 Win Mag that I own that I can tune to shooting many diverse loads under an inch but that's another story.

Several years ago we saw Mini-14s at the HOUSTON gunshows that some gunsmiths in San Antonio had shortened an inch or two, recrowned the barrels, and DRASTICALLY improved the accuracy of the generic Ruger barrels. Gary Paul Johnson wrote an article on these coversions in one of the swat type gun mags.

My point here is that many times seemingly junk barrels (pencil or bull) can be made to shoot MUCH better in EITHER platform. The first thing to do is check/recrown the barrel. I have also had great success polishing a rough barrel with the TUBB grit impregnated bullets.

The great thing about the AR platform is that if you ARE stuck with a barrel that you just can't make shoot, it is super easy to screw on a good barrel and problemed "solved"...of course if you have a BAD shooting Mini-14, getting your 'smith to whack an inch or so off the end of the barrel (MAKE SURE THE BARREL IS NOT SHORTENED MORE THAN THE FEDERAL LAWS ALLOW) and carefully recrown the darned thing. You might be pleasently surprised.

PECOS

quality of the rifling is quality of the barrel period. Beyond that its if the chamber is done correctly and the crown has to be. Isn't much beyond that to deal with, light or heavy, though light can be a bit worse on harmonics but reloads solve that generally.

Agreed. Have you (or anyone else for that matter)tried the TUBB FINAL FINISH product to spiff up a questionable bore? If you have not, you should.

Pecos

So what's the consensus on the new Mini's? More accurate? How accurate?

I had to chuckle when someone mentioned how it's so easy (and common) to take an AR carbine and make it a 9-lb rifle! Guilty as charged <g>. Well probably not 9 lbs, but last time I shouldered a plain M4gery I did realize how much I've added to MINE. The plain unmodified one had a whole different feel. And all I've done to mine is riser blocks, scope & rings, a little quad rail replacing the front sight/gas block, and a tac light.

They keep a couple minis on the black rifle rack at my favorite gunshop, just to badmouth them I think. I pick one up every time I'm there and go hmmm.... Wish they weren't so $pendy for what you get though.

Forutnately I"ve never had a questionable bore as all mine are custom tubes.... But I wouldn't hesistate, David is a great guy and I've shot with him a bit and he works hard at marketing things that work.

I had a chance to work for him but at that time in my life I could not afford to move due to family health issues.... Thats one thing I would have loved to do.

Jeff

I have a friend in Tulsa, who has had great success turning down Shilen blanks to a lighter profile out to 22", never heard of an accuracy issue on the 6 or 8 that I know of.

Speaking of light weight barrels, things are coming around. Daniel Defense is offering (at least through one dealer) true LW pencil barrels. Colt is bringing out a flat top 6520 (LW), Bushmaster still makes a 1/9 (I prefer 1/7) twisted superlight and BCM has some due out anytime. Other makers do offer them as well but these are the ones I'd look into.

Might include this info when you talk to WOA, a match SS LW tube would be wonderful. BTW, VLTOR makes a .625 gas block that weighs pretty light.

From what I've seen, the mini 14's are very popular with people who carry their rifles in their trucks for casual varmit shooting around the ranch lands out here. Or as the rifle left near the door for protecting the barnyard from predators or pests.
They have the rep of running forever w/o care. They handle like a good carbine, their triggers are pretty good as is and they are plenty accurate enough.
No, the average mini doesn't shoot as well as the average AR-15. But with a little tweaking, which doesn't cost much, they are into 2 MOA or less.
The new target version is every bit as good as the better made AR-15's from what I've seen.
I've owned an AR-15 and I've shot several minis, including some that were tweaked a bit.
I haven't shot but one AR-15's that had as good a trigger as alot of the Mini's I've shot. I hear that such animals exist or can be retrofitted, but I haven't shot one that was any better.
I prefer handling of the mini's frankly. Shorter, lighter and cheaper. All it seems to take to make them shoot better is retorguing the gas block, some glass bedding and, maybe a recrowning of the barrel. None of this is terribly expensive. E

E,

Get yourself a high quality AR-15 and not a cheap blaster and I bet your mind would change a bit.

The AC556 and AC556K Rugers were also one of the fist assault rifles to come standard with a 3 shot burst control. The selector is on the rear of the receiver, to the right of the rear sight, and has three positions, semi, 3-shot, full; safety is in the usual place.

The AC556 really needed the 3 shot burst control becuase it is perhaps the least controllable 5.56 full auto I've ever shot. Which makes sense, since most would agree that perceived recoil is greater on a Mini than most other 5.56 rifles. Still, I thought the AC556 was seriously cool (I didn't get to shoot the K model), and I'm still a fan of the Mini-14.

Dude, on this post you are WAY behind the times. I'll hand you a stock grade AR with a 60 buck wholesale cost 2 stage trigger on it that has a 35 buck tune job that will shoot circles around any mini you could find and do all that work to...

60 buck wholesale cost 2 stage trigger on it that has a 35 buck tune job

Damn, I'll take one of those, where do I send my money

I'm sure Jeff just dropped a zero in the excitement of writing his post.

I can't believe this thread is still going on, but I do like the the posts on it. I know a great deal about the Mini-14 and the AR-15, having had both. I will never own another Mini-14 and yes I have tried the Mini-14 Target with the harmonic stabilizer gizmo; It's a total waste of time, especially for the money.

And as I said at some point in the past; remember, Hannibal, Faceman, Murdock and B.A Baracus never hit anything with their Mini-14s.

Actually not at all on the zeros... RRA 2 stage NM triggers before all the election hype would go wholesale a few times a year at 60 bucks, its why I keep a few hanging in my safe... unfortunately I ended up with about 12 extra lowers for safe keeping days and don't have 12 extra triggers.....

Given a bit of time, I kinda expect the bottom to fall out of the AR market and things to go back to normal pricing, after all you can buy lowers now at times for almost under 70 bucks... I"ve seen 70 and72 already.....

Jeff, just messin with ya Actually I just pick up a RRA 2 stage NM triggers and LPK for 99.00, which I thought was a screamin deal. Probably should have bought a bunch at that price.

As usual, I misread the post. I thought you were talking about a $60 rifle (complete rifle.)

I should have stood in bed. (It's friggin' cold here in South Texas, where is that global warming?)

No contest, I'll take a quality AR any day of the week, plus a good trigger isn't that hard to come by. My target AR is a 1/2" gun, try and do that with a mini.

I can get 4moa out of a revolver, 2 moa out of some of them. Hence I can't imagine accepting that level of accuracy from a rifle when it isn't that hard to get 1 moa, and good ones will do 1/2 moa.

The only advantage I can see of the mini is it costs less than an AR.

Thanks for the thoughts, Rost. Perhaps I've missed something. Remington claims that their R-15's have a new and improved single stage trigger. I should check them out.
I can't help but wonder about that however. How come I need to buy an after market trigger for a rifle that's suppose to be so accurate ? The stock AR's I've played with were very accurate. But w/o even a half way decent trigger, the only way you'd know it would be to shoot them off of a bench.
I can't help but wonder about a few other things as well. For instance, am I going to miss that coyote at 100 yds with a Mini that "only shoots 2 inch groups ?" That means my shot would be off a maximum of an inch at most.
Then there is this bussiness of reliability. I've noticed that the current AR's all seem to have the dust covers that the military needs to keep crud out of the action. And they all seem to have the chamber assist knob to make the bolt close on the next rd. if the chamber is too dirty. If these things work so well, even with 500 rds. through them, why are thses things necessary ?
The Minis don't have these things and never have. They shoot forever inspite of being left in pickup trucks with all the dust and crud that collects on such guns out here.
When fired, the Minis really send their cases flying, which assures that they work. The so called inaccuracy they have is the result of some loose chamber dimensions. That's done so they work. Regardless as how dirty and neglected they are.
No, they aqren't used to shoot ground squirrels and parrie dogs at 400 yds. But as a handy, tough, reliable ranch and pickup rifle, they work very well. E

The Mini-14 does not have a forward assist? When did they redesign the op-rod? How are you able to pull the op-rod back now?

No at 100 yards you can hit a coyote with a mini, now put that dog out at 300. Would you rather have an AR?? A mini is very crude compared to an AR, and you mention one in your thread the Remington. It's nothing more than a Bushmaster and certaintly not what I'd consider a good or top end AR. This discussion is kind of stupid as the guns in question are very different. As for the reliabilty of an AR, don't let the dust cover fool you, our military depends on this very rugged and versitle weapon.

E,

Sorry my friend, but I have to disagree with you here, and I don't normally disagree with you. But the Mini (and I'm a fan of the Mini), just isn't in the same ballpark as the AR15. The Mini-14 is NOT a military rifle, and has not benefitted from 40 years of military development in use with the US military. I can't begin to tell you what that statement means. I'll catch hell for this, but the AR15 when properly maintained is more reliable than the M1 Garand and IME the M14 (and I carried an M14). The ONLY US military rifle that has ever been more reliable than a properly maintained M16 is the M1 Carbine, which is by far, the most reliable auto-loading arm the US has ever produced.

But the problems with the AR can be traced to two things:
1. Improper maintenance
2. After-market gadgetry, ESPECIALLY those aftermarket triggers that magically turn a serious fighting rifle into a range toy...but who cares, it's more accurate at the bench right? Which is all American shooters do anymore anyhow.

A REAL fighting rifle has NO BUSINESS having one of those match type triggers, it's a fighting rifle for God's sake.

The Mini-14 is not made to anyone's specification than Ruger's, and Ruger's specification is all the quality necessary to sell rifles and keep them coming back for more. Not, all the quality necessary to keep American boys alive. I'm not bagging on Ruger, after all, I'm an admitted fan of the Mini-14. But I'm not under the illusion that the Mini-14 is anything but one of the best made and most reliable SPORTING rifles ever made.

Oh, and a REAL fighting AR should have a prancing pony on the side; anything else is NOT a military specification (less the FCG) rifle.

My answers....
Trigger wise, some are better than others... But it doesn't take a good trigger to be able to shoot good, thats mental. I've shot some of the best scores I ever have offhand in a pinch one year at nationals because my M14(big version of the mini 14....sorta...) lost its engagement and we ran a strip of emory cloth in there to regain it. I never weighed the trigger while shooting, but made the jump up in class that year to Master, and won a lot of my categories and or placed in them. Trigger pull when home after appx 800 more rounds fired..... pushing 8 pounds and not all that crisp or clean. Mental when it comes to a trigger.
Coyote accurate... first a 2 inch mini is a good one for sure. Of course saying you'll only miss by an inch one way or the other leads one to believe you have ice water in your veins and can hold the gun perfectly still... I'm still wishing for that... Second I've rarely had a shot at a yote thats under 100 yards... most ever last one I've shot has been the far side of 200 and then moving a bit generally, they rarely stand still. So accuracy is my friend. If everything I shot was 100 and under, I'd have no need for a rifle and simply carry my 329PD 4 inch 44 mag.
I carry an AR in my vehicle out of a case, year round mostly. At least its not out of there more than about 2 weeks when we are gone.... and I have yet to actually use a dust cover, the rifle gets plenty of dust in it. I clean it once a year or if I put appx 500 rounds in it or more (truck rifle I generally fire less than 20 a year). It stays mag loaded chamber empty. Never failed to chamber under those circumstances... I do like the forward assist as when I try to quietly chamber a round, IE on the way to the deer stand, I can do it slowly and just push it shut with the FA.
As to sending cases flying an AR with an untuned ejector spring, normally tosses them way out back towards 4-5 oclock and about 7-8 good steps from the ejection port. Clear enough for me. But regardless I just simply can't recall having a malfunction, IE jam, wiht an AR in a LONG time.

Sure a mini is what it is and if it floats your boat, thats great. Personally after I shot a couple of them in the early 80s, after seeing one I wanted one so bad, but realizing that I only like accurate guns, I simply do not care for them. Our TPW game wardens have or had them... we had one here that continually jammed his in quals.... but found out the big lug has huge hands and was bearing on the op rod surface to slow it down.

You will also note that the AR has proven more than reliable and accurate enough for our troops for many moons now.

Thanks Rost and to you as well Kevin. This has been a very interesting discussion. E

Civil discussions are appreciated. This has been a decent one for sure.

I definitely appreciate all the options and opinions presented.

Newer Mini's are better than the older ones. Unless talking about a Mini made in the past three years or so, you've got an inaccurate gun. The mags are relatively expensive and not as easily obtained as an AR. IMO, the Mini has all the ergonomics of a 2x4. I'd go with the AR hands-down.

Oh, and the worst thing about the Mini is the expense. Now they are higher than a low-end AR. This was not always the case. Back in the day they were typically 25-30% cheaper than a low-end AR.

Sorry for repeating what others have already said, but IOW, I agree.

Here in Kalifornia, nobody sells any kind of AR-15 for less than 50% more than I can buy a mini 14. E

Thats cause you live in a Kommunist state...

A lot of guys here in Kaliwhacky are making a bundle by replacing mag releases with "bullet buttons," to get around all the evil black rifle restrictions and then jacking up prices. The big fly in ointment is the fact that the DOJ has never ruled on the legality of that, so things could conceivably get interesting down the line. DOJ absolutely refuses to answer any of my queries on that, so I'm staying hands-off until I move out of state. Don't want to be the test case...

Actually, the AR's greatest strength is, for lack of a better term, it's "modularity". Almost anyone can alter their gun as they desire without a trip to the gunsmith. You can change barrels, calibers, triggers, furniture...vitually anything one desires. No need for a lathe or other complicated 'smithing tools, just get a Brownell's catalouge and get with it. Try changing the barrel length...or putting a new barrel...or swapping out a trigger on a Mini or any other rifle and you are looking at a JOB. Not so with the good 'ol AR. Do you want your receiver to be able to shoot a variety of calibers that you can swap out in mere minutes? Get a Contender and be satisfied with a single shot (which ain't bad) or one of a very few hi-end bolt actions.

The AR platform is simply in a class by itself and that is why it is preferable to any other semi platform.

Pecos

i would say stay with the ar. they do require a little more cleaning but shoot 20 times better then the mini. if its a true ar which is made by armalite you wont have any regrets.

It dosent need to be an Armalite to make a person happy. IMHO.

Now thats a wild quote. Whats a "true" AR? Eugene Stoner and that had nothing to do with armalite in the start that I can recall.
Besides, armalite has at times turned out nothing but pure junk, especially with the golden eagle line.. new guns that didn't work out of the box and so on. I have no issue with them currently. Of course they tried to take the milazzo designed trigger and steal that but got nabbed by patent issues and had to rework that problem...

Armalite, a division of Fairchild Engine and Airplane Corp., sold the patent rights to Colt long ago as the "original" was an AR-10 which the Army didn't want, then they rescaled it to fit the new 5.56/.223 and while it looked promising, they had no buyers so they moved on...

Eagle Arms was formed by Karl Lewis (of LMT fame) and Jim Glaizer who later sold EA to Mark Westrom in 1994 and in 1995 he bought the name Armalite...

More or less, here's the story http://www.armalite.com/images/Library/History.pdf