Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General nobody likes the 450!!!!!!!!

It seems like everybody is knocking it without giving it a fair shot.I know everybody likes their old favorites and most of you would defend them to the death,so why do(some of)you guys drag my new favorite through the mud?I love how the universal answer is that "a handloaded 45-70 is better than the 450"well then why wont a handloaded 450 be better than the 45-70?I know I stepped in it now and I am really not trying to **** anyone off here but it really erks me that alot of you hate the 450 marlin.I know the brass is expensive right now but that is how it is when a cartridge is in its infancy.I wonder how everyone felt about smokeless powder when that first came on the scene,seeing that their wasnt alot of guns and calibers chambered for it when it came out.I feel that every catridge has a place in this world,so does the 450 marlin!

swampfox, since I have neither I have no stake in this either way, but from what I have heard from people is that the 450 is the answer to a question that was not asked. tom

I don't recall the numbers off hand but all of the magazine reviews have found that the 450 actually has less case capacity than the 45-70. Hence, you would probably not be able to load up a 450 to match any of the fastest 45-70 loads. <P>I think the 450 was probably created to satisfy lawyers and protect those unthinking individuals who would try to load a "hot" 45-70 into an antique rifle (Springfield and the like). <P>I don't think that anyone is really knocking the 450, but it is certainly less versatile than the 45-70 which can be loaded over a greater range of velocity.

The 450 was designed to replace the 45-70's hot loads, as a way to avoid the lawyers. <BR>One thing some 45-70 users(not me) have argued is it will go faster, but what is skipped over, is the difference is only by a handful of feet, not hundreds as it sounds.<BR>Once a bullet from a 45-70 or 450 reaches a certain speed(unknown specifically to me), the tissue destruction is awesome, and anything beyound this is actually a moot point, but only for sake of arguement. <BR>Both rounds will penetrate through ANY animal on earth... so how much more do you need after this point? The simple answer... just enough to say the 45-70 is better. <BR>45-70 is better how? More factory rounds available? Sure, but the 450 will gain more, it's not subject to stay with one loading. Most new rounds are introduced with one loading, then another, and so on. Even the 45-70 had one loading to begin with. And its had 120 years lead time over the 450. Wait 120 years, then make the comparison.<BR>Lack of handloading components for the 450? Midway has 450 brass, bullets and dies, so this is now a moot point. <BR>Both are available in the same rifles(Guide Gun), as well as the single shot by NEF. Both have a revolver that shoots these two rounds. Both have top loaded factory rounds.<BR>So, the argument about the differences between the two, is now proving to be a moot point, except for those who refuse to accept reality. The 45-70 has a new twin brother, embrace him with love.<BR>BTW the 450 is a fine round, it has tickled my levergun mind many times. ~~~Suluuq<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Rusty-Gunn (edited May 02, 2001).]

swampfox, the 450 Marlin was created because Hornady has bound itself a SAAMI ammunition supplier. As such, it strictly adheres to a regiment that every Hornady cartridge sold will fire in the prescribed chambering safely. <P>There fear of producing hot 45/70 ammo is that some nimrod will surely throw a juiced 45/70 into an old trapdoor and loose his face. To me, its a conscious decision more so than a corporate liability decision. Companies like Buffalo Bore and Garrett produce loads that could end up in the same old trapdoor, they prefer to make exclusionary statements regarding the usage of their ammo in such fashion. I believe Hornady could do the same and not worry terribly about liability. Its an ethics thing with them. I guess its commendable in a way. So you have them producing the belted 450 Marlin, which apparently allows them to sleep better at night. <P>I will tell you, I am extremely disapointed in Marlin and Hornady for not coming up with some real hybrid round that truely would offer ground breaking performance and would not be closely linked to the 45/70 Gov. When the rumors of a new .458 tube feed lever chambering were surfacing, I thought it would be a bottleneck design. I had hoped for something along the lines of the wildcatted 450 Alaskan based on the 348 Win case or some other bottleneck case. This would have been a real seller and a real kick a** chambering. Shooting 350 grain bullets at 200-300 fps faster than the 450 Marlin at the muzzle and getting 3700 ft-lbs of ME. Also, pushing 405 grainers out of the pipe at 2200 fps and close to 4000 ft-lbs of ME.<P>To be quite honest, the stock 1895 Marlin action would have had to be beefed up considerably to handle this type of chambering. I don't think Marlin wanted to tow the expense. I say it would have been worth it.<P>If you own the 450 Marlin, you have a chambering that will stand up to any game animal in the world. Loaded with 350 grain bullets it is the equal to most hot loaded 45/70s. Handloaded with well constructed 405 grain bullets, it will display the same ballistic and field performance as any 45/70. I think this business of comparing the two is such a splitting hairs thing. The 450 Marlin hulls will be available and around for a long time, enjoy yours. My advice would be to not loose any sleep over the comparison of the two any longer. Take Care ~rossi~ <P><p>[This message has been edited by rossi (edited May 03, 2001).]

If you do not reload the 450 is the best due to better loads.The 45/70 has a slight edge with handloads.I personally prefer the 45/70,but I would be happy with either one.One reason the 45/70 is more popular is due to nostalgia and the fact that it has been extensively tried and tested.I think the 450 will be around for a long time,but I do not think it will ever be nowhere near as popular as the 45/70 is.

swampfox, I don't think it's a case of nobody liking the 450. It's more of a case of direct competition for the 45-70 that everyone is afraid of. I have a 45-70 not a 450 but I would take either. What we can do with reloading one we could pretty much do with the other cause there isn't much difference, if any. The 45-70 certainly has more nostalgia and always will and that's the only difference.......deadeye

It's not that we 45/70 owners don't like the 450 Marlin, it's just that we don't need the 450 Marlin. Why would we, we have a 45/70! The deer, moose, elk, bear, chipmunk or gnat's ass that gets hit with either isn't going to know the difference.

I have both the Marlin 1895G in 45/70 and the 1895M in 450 Marlin. The 450 is more powerfull than Randy Garrett's 45/70 load by just a tad and the Hornady Ammo is a lot less expencive. Either gun will get the job done, but it is the 450 that is in my pickup. I've had a Marlin 1895 for a long time. I love the porting on the 1895M/1895G. I got the 45/70 first and the 450. I have no regrets. The 444 still survives eventhough the 45/70 is a better round.

The argument I've heard, and agree with is this. The lever guns are very trendy right now, but in time, that will wear off, and sales of the rifles will drop off, perhaps to the point that it just isn't economical for the companies to offer the guns any more. Shortly after this, the ammo factories will follow suit some time later and where are you? You have a round that has a case that is totally unique, and if its availability dries up, you are SOL.<P>Hard to say if this argument holds much water or not. I'm silly enough that I'm having a 500 Jeffrey built, a round that never had many factory rifles built for it, and has a unique case. Brass is available, but at astronomical prices. The up side is that the balistics of this round far surpass any common factory round, and most wildcats.<P>Anyhow, a case is just a means of holding powder and a primer, its the bullet that does the work, and whether you use a .450 or 45-70 case to push the same bullet the same speed really doesn't matter.

I have to disagree that levers are trendy right now. The Lever Action has been around for over 100 years and has been popular ever since. Yes they are enjoying some new found fame with the development of some new rounds and resurection of older ones but my grandpa hunted deer with a Win Mod 94 in 30-30 as does my father as I do know. Trendy, I think not! Tried, tested and true is more like it!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GLC:<BR><STRONG>...the 450 actually has less case capacity than the 45-70 </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The 450 has 93% of the capacity of a 45-70 case.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RRC:<BR><STRONG>I have to disagree that levers are trendy right now... Yes they are enjoying some new found fame with the development of some new rounds and resurection of older ones... </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, this new found fame comes from who? New shooters, of course. Ands its the current trend. <BR>All the older levergun shooters are still around, as you mentioned, but the newer shooters are following this trend, with newer models and a new cartridge as well, which in my view is fine. More levergun shooters, more models will be available. <BR>Just the other side of the coin, explaining the uprising in levergun sales recently. ~~~Suluuq

I have a 450 and love it!

this is to 458lott: the lever gun is a new trend that will soon die out????? yeah and the bolt action is just a passing fad too.<BR> geeeez 458lott get a grip on reality, i never heard such hogwash....gut

Gutpile,<P>Perhaps I worded that poorly. Perhaps what I should have said is, while the market for large bore lever guns is currently hot, it may not stay that way. If the 450 marlin isn't a hot seller in the future, don't be suprised if you can't get brass for it. <P>Yes, as long as we are allowed to have guns, there will be lever guns on the walls, and in the hunting fields. That said, there are a few that no longer have brass available, and many that you can't get loaded ammo for. <P>My comments were aimed solely at the 450. Lets be honest, the marketshare for guns in the US is the typical white tail hunter who goes to the range once or twice a year. For that consumer, the 450 kicks too much. Once there are enough 450's and 45-70's out there, the market for the new guns will slow, and the guns out there will change hands.

458lott,<BR> you just may be right, the 450 marlin may never be real popular because the 45-70 has such a strong following, my self, i'd never buy the 450 because id rather have the tried and true 45-70. but i dont think the 45-70 is in any danger of dying out in my lifetime, it, like the .45 colt has been in continuous production since the mid 1870's and is just as popular in 2001 as it was in the 1870's. ...gut

Hey guys who really gives a hoot about the difference of a few feet a second in velocity? The 450 is a good round, but it is in the wrong gun. I have three 45/70's and am building another one. I guess I like the round. I hunt heavy cover and thick forest for bear and elk with a bolt gun that is the twin of the 450, I have a 458x2 American. Case capacity is equal to the 450 or very close depending on the type of brass used. This round is devestating on elk and black bear. I think the 450 needs to move over to a bolt gun and wave bye bye to the levers. Even better into a Browning semi. I would buy that in a heartbeat.<BR>If 450 dies out, fear not the loss of brass one can have the barrel set back on his rifle and chambered to fit the 458x2 or even a bit longer. Brass is made from standard belted magnum cases. I have made nearly 200 rounds out of 300 win, 7mm rem, 338win and 458 win. So if the 450 goes away I'll be looking for cheap ones.<P>Bullwnkl.