Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General .45-70 penetration

I was looking through a compilation of .45-70 penetration data and was struck by how disappointing most of the loads were. The data is at the very end of the link below:<P><A HREF="http://ulfhere.freeyellow.com/ballistics/wounding.html" TARGET=_blank>http://ulfhere.freeyellow.com/ballistics/wounding.html</A><P>The tests were done with saturated phone books, and while I know that the actual numbers in these kinds of tests mean very little in terms of actual penetration on game, they are good for comparison between bullets/cartridges. Most of the premium bullets fired from medium-caliber magnum cartridges (.300, .338) penetrated in the range of 16-20" or so. If we use that for a benchmark, and assume that people who are handloading the .45-70 hot are hoping to get at least that or even better penetration than that to use for elk or moose and certainly large bears, they might want to take a serious look at the bullets they are choosing. <P>For starters, the 300gr HP loads at around 1800fps penetrate in the range of 10-12". Forget them, but everybody already knew that. <P>The Remington 405gr factory load, impacting at a blazing 1100fps, did not expand and as a result penetrated 28". This is the best penetration of all loads tested, and my guess is it probably translates to nearly end-to-end penetration through an elk. It's too bad they didn't test the same bullet at a higher velocity, but they did test the Speer 400gr FP at 1750fps at it penetrated only 11", while expanding to a whopping .950". My guess is that the Remington would behave similarly at similar velocities. Anybody know about this?? <P>The Speer 350gr, which if memory serves is designed for the .458magnum, when loaded in the .45-70 to 1930fps, did a little better, but still only penetrated 16". I personally would want more than that if I was handloading a 350gr bullet this hot. The 350gr Hornady penetrated 12-18", depending on velocity (slower=deeper), and there was a serious discrepancy in the data. In one test, this bullet loaded to 1950fps penetrated 18", while in another test the same load only penetrated 12". Either way, it's still fairly disappointing considering the weight of the bullet. <P>They didn't test any of the Corbon/Garrett stuff, but they did test a Buffalo Bore .444 load - the 335gr LBT FN at 2000+fps penetrated 36"!<P>Bottom line is that the jacketed soft point bullets don't cut it in the faster loads. If you want serious penetration, you need to go to a square-edged, wide meplat, hard cast bullet that doesn't expand. It seems to me a good compromise might be to load either the Remington or Speer 400gr FP to a velocity where they just begin to expand, but still penetrate well over 20", probably somewhere around 1500fps give or take.<P>Any comments? -al

EM, I am going to give the Cor-Bons a shot this year out of my 444 Marlin on elk. The 280 grain core-bonded FP bullet is called the Expander (2200 fps/3010ft-lbs), as I have stated on the other thread, their people told me this load pushed length wise through a bull moose hit in the front chest at 70 yards, ending up in the moose's rear ham. Their 444 Marlin 305 grain FMJ FN Penetrator (2100 fps/2990 ft-lbs) is, well, unbelievable. They said with this bullet construction, the load would blow clean through both shoulders on a cape buff. They further declared it is pretty much an African round. They make 45/70 ammo out of the same bullet construction. The 350 grain bonded-core Expander FP (1900 fps/2990 ft-lbs and 405 grain FMJ FN Penetrator (1600/2850 ft-lbs). <P>From what I hear and read, the Beartooth gas check lead cast bullets offer unparalleled performance and penetration on large game. I have all of Marshall Stanton's pet loads for the 444 Marlin and plan to unleash them soon. Buffalo Bore's 335 LBT FN, I believe, is a Beartooth bullet and is Marshall's favorite. The lead cast bullets gain about 200 fps over their copper jacketed counterparts, since cast lead bullets display less friction in the bore than copper jackets do. So it isn't surprising to see the 335 grain, 444 Marlin dig as deep as it did. <P>I think these big bore straight-wall cartridges need to be complemented with proper bullet construction. If quality bullets are used, you can expect excellent kill results. More hunters in the past used HPs in .430 and .458 bores, unfortunately a bad reputation has beem formed on the chambering when all along its the bullets. I agree with your assessment of using wider meplat and squared edges to gain optimum penetration. <P>As far as the Rem 405, I know I have read Jackfish's load for this bullet and he pushes it at 1900 fps. From what he has told me and experienced in taking elk, it expands well over an inch. Hope he jumps in on the thread, he has some real good experience with loading and shooting the 45/70. Take Care. ~rossi~<BR><p>[This message has been edited by rossi (edited May 02, 2001).]

I have basically adopted the philosophy that a half-inch diameter bullet that penetrates completely doesn't need to expand to do the job. This is based on one elk killed with the 405gr Remington load, and another one killed with a non-expanding .54cal conical from a ML. Of course, if you can make them expand while still always penetrating completely, so much the better. My worry is that people are loading these jacketed softpoints too hot and are inadvertantly hurting themselves in the penetration department. But then I don't know exactly how much penetration in these phonebook tests really equates to "enough" or "more than enough" from a hunting perspective. Maybe 15" in phonebooks means full penetration on an elk from any reasonable angle. I don't know. You can push the velocity up, make a wider hole while sacrificing penetration, as long as you still fully penetrate. The question is where exactly this point is. <P>I have only recovered two bullets from elk, both fired from a 7mm Rem mag. One was a 160gr X-bullet that went through both shoulders of a very large, old cow elk at 150yds. It stopped under the off-side hide. That's penetration of about 2 feet after hitting lots of bone. The other was a 160gr Partition. That one entered a young bull just in front of the ham, went through the gut and one lung and stopped in the shoulder, penetrating somewhere in excess of 3ft with no bones. I wish I knew what kinds of numbers these loads would produce in these phonebook tests. -al

I had a good friend once that was involved in a lot of animal control work for a time. He reported that the 350 gr. Hdy bullet, when fired at 2400 fps., blew up on things like the ribs of an elk at 150 yds. Hornaday's 500 gr. bullets, designed for this round, the .458 Win., worked fine. He also told me that hard cast, 500 gr. .45 caliber bullets would relibly shoot lenthwise through an elk when fired out of something in the .45-70 to .458 Win. class of cartriage. He went on to say that this was the only combination that would relibly do this. Everything else could not be relied on to do this. This list included the .375 H&H class of cartriages as well. This was before the coming of the bonded core bullets, or stuff like the "X" bullets, I might add. I have no idea if they would make a difference. I hope this helps. E

Hey Guys,<P>You should read Paul Matthews book, "Forty Years with the 45-70" (was available from Wolfe Publications), and some of Paco Kelly's 45-70 stuff. <P><http://www.sixgunner.com/paco/4570leverguns.htm> <P>quote Paco "I make my own .458 bullets from tubing in a set of dies made by friend Ed Wosika. I can make them any weight from<BR> about 200 grains to a whopper of 600 grains. But the weight that works for me is 450grs. You run out of powder<BR> room with the 475s and 500s in the short .45-70 cases. But this stout 450 can hit 1800 fps. I wouldn't shoot an<BR> elephant with one if another was standing behind it. This bullet would go completely thru and wound the second, not a<BR> situation that professional hunters will love you for. (unquote)

I've got that book, "Forty Years...". Its an excellent book, about one man's life long useage/experimenting, of the 45-70, in leverguns, and single shots, with many different styles/weights of bullets. I highly recommend it.<BR>Will trade it for Number 8/9(which ever is new) Cartridges of the World book. ~~~Suluuq

I have performed penetration tests into wet phonebooks and have found that the 405gr Remington will act similarly to the Speer when driven to higher velocities. Because it expands at higher velocities it penetrates less. The difference between the Speer and Remington is the amount of expansion and retained weight. The 405gr Rem JSP driven to 1900fps will on average penetrate to 11", expand to 1.1" and retain 97% of its weight. The Speer 400gr FN driven to 1900fps will on average penetrate to 9.5", expand to .94" and retain 79% of its weight. I will not venture a guess as to how these bullets will penetrate on game except to say the Remington exited completely a moose I killed with a front quartering shot through one shoulder (120 yards), and a 350lb feral pig took a frontal shot at 50 yards and the bullet went through the entire body cavity destroying all the innards in its path before exiting. Hard cast bullets are great for penetration on large dangerous game but I like the performance of the 405gr Remingtons on thin-skinned large game up to elk and moose.<p>[This message has been edited by jackfish (edited May 05, 2001).]

Thank you very much Jackfish. This is exactly what I was looking for.<P>It's interesting that a Rem. 405gr load that only penetrates 11" in phonebooks does so well on game. That was the missing link in my mind. Deer cadaver tests in Sciuchetti's Handloader article suggested that penetration on game would be around 75% greater than phonebooks if no bones were hit, and about 2/3 if major bones are hit. That comes to only about 19" if no bones are hit, and 2/3 of 11" is, well, not very much. That'll learn me to believe everything I read.<P>I think I'll stick with the Remington bullet and be happy. Thanks again. -al

Jackfish - The reason I started thinking about this is that I just started handloading for the .45-70. I thought that the Remington bullet sounded good, but on second thought, it sounds like the Speer 400gr FN might require a bit less velocity to expand. Ever tested the Speer bullet at around 1550-1600fps (50gr 3031)? I'm looking for a medium load that will expand the bullet a bit but not knock the snot out of me. Do you know at what velocity the Speer bullet starts to shed weight? I'm an elk hunter who generally shoots them close with irons (under 100yds). Does it sound like I'm on the right track? -al

I think both the Speer and Remington will expand at 1550-1600fps. I haven't tested either bullet at those velocities, however I do know that the Speer uses a soft pure lead core to facilitate expansion at the lower velocities. I also would guess that if the Remington 405gr does not expand at 1100fps but expands to 1.1" at 1900fps then it is probably going to expand at 1550-1600fps as well. I do know that the Speer core can separate from the jacket but I've never seen the Remington separate or lose more than 95% of its weight, unless it hits dirt and rock. I think you will get what you want from either the Speer or Remington bullet. Either going 1550-1600fps from the muzzle should be just fine on elk to 200 yards. I just prefer to spend less, and from what I've seen the Remington performs better.

I've done a little experimentation with loads. First I loaded the 400gr Speer over 50gr 3031. I hope I don't sound like a big wimp, but they knocked the snot out of me. I stopped after 6 rounds, and had a nice bruise the next day. I have never been bruised by a rifle. Then I noticed in an old Mike Venturino ST article that he says 46gr 3031 gives him 1590fps in his 1895. Hmmm. I wanted to back off anyway, so I loaded up some with 46gr. They felt much better. Kicked considerably more than the Rem factory stuff, but pleasant enough. Then I fired a couple into wet newsprint. I had filled a couple 5gal buckets with old newspaper and then filled the buckets with water. They swelled up so much I couldn't get the newspaper out, so I just shot the bucket. Dang I hate ruining a perfectly good bucket. The round stopped just about at the back of the bucket, for a distance of about 16". Expansion was to .78 and it retained 98%. Perfect. Anybody think shooting through a thickness of plastic might have skewed the results? I kinda figured it probably more accurately simulated hitting a rib than merely shooting through cardboard. I had to saw the bucket open to recover the bullet, so then I stacked it all into a cardboard box and fired another round. This one penetrated about 20" and expanded to only .54 with 96% weight retention. The paper wasn't packed nearly as tightly in the box, so I think that might be why it behaved so differently. We also fired a Win 300gr HP factory load. It penetrated about 16" and expanded to over an inch with 85% retention in the loose paper. A Rem 405gr factory load went clear through the 30" deep box.<P>About the charge of 3031... I am using Remington cases. The speer manual uses winchester. Venturino, in a comment about BP loads, says that the winchester cases have the largest capacity, while the remingtons have the smallest. Do you think that could cause enough pressure difference to account for 100-200fps? -al

I feel that when using the 45/70 for big game such as moose, or the bigger bears, using a fairly hard cast bullet is best, I have tried several designs, from a hammerhead style(472grs), that is very accurate, and creates an incredible wound channel measured in feet of penetration, a flat nosed spitzer(370grs) and a round nosed bullet designed for black powder(550grs), the round nosed bullet expands quite a bit, and will penetrate 38" of wet newsprint, the hammerhead expands slightly, and always exited the test media. I shoot all of these from a Ruger #1 at varying velocities. I used to shoot all of the jacketed bullets, but I won't go back to them, lead is the only way to go for me.<P>Dave Beeman

I know this is a little, late, but I just notice this post. Of the two elk I have shot with a 45-70, Claas 2 loads One went through both lungs and exited, the other went into brisket, exit was in rigt flank after traveling most of body cavity, This was with the Speer 400 grain. The first elk went about 10 yards, the second through the brisket dopped in about 15 yards, but he was trotting right at me an actaully dropped about 3 yards in front of me.

Ellie;<P>One shouldn't confuse soaked phone books with flesh, but then you allready aluded to that. There is a lot of air space in the chest of a game animal and I believe muscle tissue often separates as much as it tears and rips. My experience with Wisconsin whitetails is this: Longer shots hence slower velocities, ALWAYS ended with through and through penetration, even when shoulder bones and ribs were hit! Closer shots, 25 to 30 yards, I almost always found the bullets inside the deer and in some cases with the 300 grain hollowpoints both winchester and remington factory loads, the bullets broke up if they hit a bone. With the .45-70, hyper velocity is not needed and never has been. Load a Sharps .45-100 with 500 grains at 1400 fps in a hard cast lead bullet and watch it sail through most elk, or if it hits a major bone, look for it under the off side hide. Same is true with a quality jacketed bullet in .45-70! 350 or 400 grains, loaded to 1600 to 1900 fps and darn it, go elk hunting...not phone book hunting!<P>Dan

Thanks all.<P>I decided early on that the phonebook numbers that got me so worried really meant nothing. 16" +/- sounds shallow, but it probably means an exit on most, maybe all shots at actual game the size of elk.<P>I have shot the 400gr Speers over 46gr 3031 some more and have decided to stick with it. After having killed a couple elk with much less, I can't come up with a good reason to go any hotter and beat myself up (my rifle doesn't have a recoil pad and I don't particularly want one on it). Some day I will get a chrony just to satisfy my curiosity, but the velocity really doesn't matter to me as long as it shoots well and kills elk, which I'm sure it will do. -al

al - If you jack that IMR 3031 up to 53gr you'll be pushing around 1850fps with the 400gr Speer.<P>jf

jackfish - I'm sure it would! If memory serves, that's the max load for the 1895 in the Speer manual. But I'm not necessarily trying to push it to the max. I just want something a bit more than the Rem factory stuff, but still comfortable to shoot often in a light rifle with no recoil pad. I'm also not concerned with trying to flatten the trajectory, because I won't put a scope on this rifle, so a long shot for me wouldn't be much over 100yds anyway. I like to take this rifle and crawl up or call them to within butt-slapping distance, so I have complete confidence in that. BTW, do you have a pad on your rifle, or are you just tougher than me? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] -al

Hodgdon #26 lists 48gr of IMR3031 at 1558fps out of a 22" pipe for the 400gr bullet. I would think your 46gr isn't pushing the Speer too much over the Remington 405gr load at 1330fps, although an old load I found from a 1973 article has a 405gr load of 40gr of IMR3031 for 1410fps. Just goes to show what the different variables can do. Guess you'll need to chronograph those loads to know for sure.

Hi,<BR>I have been weed laying on this post for quite some time and jackfish sparked my interest enough to try the Remington 405 gr. JSP. I have a 1895 and I love to try different loads as I am looking for one that I can use for an upcoming Moose Hunt in the Brooks Range. I am currently using the Hornady 350 gr JFP with H4198 at 52 grains. I am sure that is more than enough for our Wisconsin Whitetails. <BR>Just looking for a good Moose load and defense load in case of that rare occurance that I should need one.<BR>Tom [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img]

Tass 366, that H4198 should be just the ticket with the 405gr Rem JSP. Check out the Hodgdon #27 load for the Marlin 1895 and 400gr Speer. Back off on the starting load a little bit just to be safe.