Home Forums Lever Action Central Lever Actions - General 45/70$444 VS. 12ga Slug

There are a lot of people hear with extensive knowledge on the larger bores(45/70 & 444). How would you compare a 12 ga slug to these?? My reason for asking is that I live in a shotgun only state and am moving to UT and may be hunting elk. My primary gun is a Ruger in .338, but I don't have the money for a backup and was wondering if my slug gun would work. Thanks.

If your primary rifle is a 338, and all you are hunting is elk, you don't need a backup. It's just that simple.,,BEARHUNTER

Goood question. 12 ga ~ .70 cal? Vel ~ 1100fps?<P>IMHO good stopping power, especially with that wadcutter - kind original Brenneke slug. But range is 25 yds, 50 at most. <P>I know this was not Your question but I would take an �06.<P>Good Hunting! H

I'm very familar with the various atributes of the 12 ga. slug loads. The very best are only good for 150 yds., and that's only if they shoot well in your slug gun. Seventy-five yards is a closer average. I always take a back up when I go big game hunting. If I break something, I just switch over to another rifle, or another scope, if possible. I suggest you borrow another scope sighted rifle, like an '06. E

Sorry for the misinformation, but I have a problem with borrowing something that I can't afford to replace. I am asking, would a scoped, rifled barrel slug gun work on elk out to 100 yards? When looking on the Remington website I noticed that their Copper Solid Slug has more energy at 100 yards than either of their factory 45/70 loads. Thanks for the help fellas.

OK, now I understand. I'd check out the Brenneke Magnum slug loads, or some other in that class. The Remington copper wonder load didn't work worth a hoot in tests by Gun Tests magazine. Yes, they will kill an elk at 100 yds., but I'd feel better with something better than the standard Foster style slug. E

E-<P>I am almost stuck with having to use a saboted slug since I have a rifled slug barrel. However, Winchester Supremes are using a style similar to the partition. A .63 cal(approx) slug and 1500fps should have some stopping power. Now, the foster styles aren't for me. I was just wondering how the ol' pumpkin ball shooter would measure up. Thanks all for the help.

1-POINTER My freind shoots a special model of the breneke slugs in his 12 gauge.His gun is a mossberge with the rifled barrel he gets great accurracy @100+ yards.The slugs are desinged for rifled shotgun barrels.

I am asking, would a scoped, rifled barrel slug gun work on elk out to 100 yards? <P>No, neither trajectory, energy, nor penetration make this suitable for elk.<P>Practice with the .338 Win, and if you really need a back up gun find used .30/06 in good condition and load it with a premium bullet.

Pound for pound, elk are one of the toughest animals in the world. Their stamina is unmatched by most other game animals. They can vetically climb 2000 ft before most hunters can do 200 ft.<P>Your 338 Win is an exceptional elk cartridge. Loaded with 225g or 250g bullets, you have some serious elk medicine out to any sane shootable distance.<P>As far as a backup to the 338 Win, a shotgun slug is a poor substitute. There is absolutely no comparison on elk size game to the performance of a shotgun slug vs. a 45/70 or a 444 Marlin, they are both far superior in their capabilities, hands down! With todays loads and bullets, they can be sighted 3-inches high at 100 yards and shoot plenty flat out at 200 plus and drive both shoulders to boot. They also can make the off angle shots because of their ability to penetrate and drive length wise from chest to ham or vice versa, especially with hard cast bullets or good bonded core jacketed bullets. Both of these chamberings have load development that would stop a Alaskan brown bear, African lion or cape buffalo. My 444 Marlin loaded with 280g Cor-Bons at 2200 fps and 3100 ft lbs at the muzzle is sighted 3-inches high at 100 yards, is zero at 175 yards and is only 2.5" low at 200 yards. A slug gun would only allow you a broadside at best from well inside 100 yards on elk and even then it may not be the best decision. <P>The real question is, do you want to hunt elk at long range or short range? I have taken several both ways. I prefer to hunt feeder trails early mornings and late evenings with my 338 Win. I load a 250g Hawk Spitzer just under 2700 fps. Between 10:00am and 3:00pm, I'll push heavy bush and dark timber for bedded and meandering elk with my Winchester 94 Big Bore. Contrary to what you may hear, a slug gun on elk is not a very appropriate choice, even at the shortest distances, they are not terribly accurate when compared to any centerfire chambering. <P>These are not deer you'll be taking a crack at, you'll need excellent penetration when it comes to elk and something that won't stop on bone, if hit. A slug looses way to much speed out past 75 yards, you will get some expansion, but not the penetration needed to put down this worthy game animal. If you hit a shoulder at 100 plus yards, that slug will stop like a sword hitting an armoured shield.<P>If your going to hunt elk and you can't aford a backup, use the .338 and be done with it. You really can't afford a wounded elk running off to some godforsaken place and terminating after a couple of days from pieces of a fragmented slug resting against his ribs or shoulder. <P>~rossi~

I don't know anything about slugs, so I can't respond on that basis. I do know a little about elk hunting.<P>One thing I know is that if you are careful and work at it you can get close. Last season I was within spitting distance of cows and at least 4 good sized bulls several times (unfortunately I had a spike only tag).<P>If it was me, I would go ahead and take the shotgun while praying that nothing bad happens to the .338. If something did happen to the .338, then at least you are still in the game. Maybe you would have to get in very close, but it beats sitting at camp or going home.<P>I will agree with the rest, if you can get another centerfire rifle as back-up, that would be the ideal situation. If you can't, however, that shouldn't keep you from going. Just remember what you are hunting with and keep yourself to the strictest limits. You have to be willing to pass some shots you would take with your other gun.<P>As I said, I don't know anything about slugs and big game, so you'll have to do your research to decide where to draw the line - 25 yards? 50 yards? maybe 75? I don't know.

Before you go any farther, check Utah's Big Game Proclaimation to see if shotguns are legal for elk or bears. You can get to their website via the link on 24hourcampfire's homepage. Hope this helps, Okie John.

<A HREF="http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp</A> <P>Check out this site for assured penetration with 45-70. 540 grain cast @ 1550 fps.

Performance wise, the saboted 12 ga rounds are on par with a 454 casull revolver, which is far short of the 444 and 45-70 lever guns.
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<br>A 12 ga is what it is, and slugs do not make it equal to a rifle, even with sabot's. That doesn't mean it can't be used effectively for hunting big game, just fully understand it's limitations, and shoot within them.

1-pointer, most of the state is now spike only except for limited entry draws.
<br>From proclamation----
<br>The following rifles and shotguns may be used to take big game:
<br>(a) any rifle firing centerfire cartridges and expanding bullets: and
<br>(b) a shotgun, 20 gauge or larger, firing only OO or larger buckshot or slug ammumition.

Rossi, I would take a closer look at some of the new 12guage sabot rounds ie: Win/supreme 385gr 62. caliber partition load while not high on velocity the partition bullet will shed its nose up to the partition, then penetrate like a solid.Many fully rifled scope mounted shotguns will provide just as good accuracy as most production rifles.Would i use a 12 guage on Elk?Not if i had a 338Win mag but do not under estimate the 12 guage within 100yds with some of the new rounds like Hornadyw/XTP bullet Federal w/Barnes expander and Win/Nosler Supreme.

I don't want to offend here, but every year , many bulls are taken with a 50 cal muzzle loader, pure lead bullet. I haven't checked lately, but I doubt there is a spittin difference between that and a 12 gauge slug. In fact, I think (IMO) that there are more trophy bulls being taken in CO in Muzzle loader season than in reg rifle. ( I said trophy, not total)I might be wrong. The 6x7 my partner took last year went down in less than 25 yrds., one shot, 50 cal. 90 gr Goex. The key here is the distance. Under 100 yds, usually under 50. The big magnums are only required for those longer shots, or as an edge against a poorly placed shot, and they aren't the cure all for that. Bring the 338. and if it's all you got, the 12 gauge. I seriously doubt that it would get out of the cae, but if it gives you warm and fuzzy go with it.
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<br>The hard to kill ones are the ones pumped up from runnin up a mountain, runing the gammut of hunters and such, I venture to say that anything you hit them with will produce the same results, They just don't know they are dead.
<br>Elk, beef, horses, whatever, they are all made the same way. One isn't any tougher to kill than the other. Shoot any between the eyes with a 22 and they drop. Lung shots they can go 100+ yds. depends on how fast they are running. neck shots, missing the spine, texas heart shots, gut shots, etc, God knows. I don't take them.
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A .338 Win Mag is enough gun for anything in Utah you'd care to hunt. Deer, Elk, Antelope, Bear, and Jack Rabbits.
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<br>Shotguns are fine for hunting Waterfowl, Upland Game, and Jack Rabbits.
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<br>Jack Rabbit hunting is the only place where rifles and shotguns properly co-exist.
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<br>Find or develope a good load with NP 210 Grain bullets, buy a bulk batch and practice with the .338 and you will never be confused about when to use rifles and when to use shotguns.
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<br>If you want to use your move to Utah as an excuse to buy a new rifle--that is a whole new question with lots of possible answers.