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OP
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Joined: Dec 2004
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For those with some experience/knowledge.
For a blade approx 6" long and 1 1/4" wide and 1/4" thick that will be used for anything from batoning to squirrel cleaning--
Where on the c scale wound you harden to and why?????
CPM S30V
A2
Thanks for your knowledge in advance. No I do not wish to hear about other steels at this time.
Thanks
Tim
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein
At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
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Campfire Tracker
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I would go to about 59 to 60. The A2 might be a little tougher than S30V, since it is an air hardening die steel, so you could go maybe 1 or 2 Rockwell points higher.
Just remember, when you go much over C60-61, the steel gets much more brittle, is extrememly difficult to re-sharpen, and doesn't seem to hold an edge any better than the 60-61, possibly because of this much hardness on the very thin cutting edge, microscopic chips will break of, dulling the blade.
Also, it has been my experience that the high alloy tool steels do not work as well at lower hardnesses. There seems to be an optimum (sp?) hardness and steel type, depending on what the tool will be used for.
What is batoning?
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Campfire Tracker
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Now, thanks to a poster on another thread, I know what batoning is. I always used an 8 pound sledge hammer and a wedge, but I guess you could use the baton method on the small stuff, but when it I split it that small, I always burnt the entire log.
I would use the same hardness mentioned above, but be carefull and do not twist the blade as you beat it through the log.
I do not know this to be a fact, but I have read about edge chipping with S30V when hardened in the 60-61 range. I have read that some makers don't go over about Rc58 with S30V.
The S30V would probably be best to use on the squirrels because of this possible chipping, but the A2 might be best for batoning because it might be tougher than S30V.
Very difficult to get a multi-purpose tool that does any one thing as good as a tool designed specifically for that purpose.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
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I guess the real question is, what is more important, a blade that will hold and edge a long time, or one that is indestructable. Wayne Goddard has some excellent information in his knifemaking books about edgeholding, and indestructable blades.
What I've taken from his books is, the super steels are great at edgeholding, but if you want a knife that will take tremendous abuse, a differtially hardened high carbon steel is the way to go.
Personally I'll take the tough blade that needs to be touched up more often then the one that'll chip at the edge or break when you abuse it.
And a 6" long 1 1/4" wide 1/4" thick blade is about the last thing I'd want for cleaning a squirrel. Spend $5 on a victronox paring knife, and carry a machete or hatchet for the wood working. Do it all tools tend not to do any one paticular task well.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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one man's meat is another's poison  That blade sounds ideal as a bushcraft knife.
Sam......
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
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"Also, it has been my experience that the high alloy tool steels do not work as well at lower hardnesses."
1234567---What are you considering "lower"???
I have had pretty good luck with A2 at 59Rc. Seems to take a good edge, keep it fairly well and can be touched up without much difficulty.
I have heard of CPM S30V having some issues with chipping, but no personal experience with that steel.
I did do one blade in S3V but have not put it to any great challenges or field testing yet. Is chipping a vanadium thing???
I have a project that I was going to acquire some A2 for, but a limited supply of some CPM S30V came into the picture, so not sure which way to go.
458 Lott----nothing personal here and you probably make a good point, but I don't like using a paring knife --even on apples.
The use for squirrels was kind of an extreme condition thing. It would be more of a camp knife than a small game knife.
Thanks, good input.
Any ideas on these choices Sam??????????
Tim
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein
At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
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"Also, it has been my experience that the high alloy tool steels do not work as well at lower hardnesses."
I guess I should have mentioned it, but I meant 50 to 55 Rc. 59 is getting into the useful range.
At 50 to 55, the entire knife would be tougher, i.e. not break or chip as easily, but you would probably lose a lot of edge holding ability. This is speaking of A2.
The S30V might be the same way at a lower hardness, but I have no experience with it.
Vanidium and chipping? I kind of think that it might be the 1.5 percent and greater carbon content.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
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"Also, it has been my experience that the high alloy tool steels do not work as well at lower hardnesses."
1234567---What are you considering "lower"???
I have had pretty good luck with A2 at 59Rc. Seems to take a good edge, keep it fairly well and can be touched up without much difficulty.
I have heard of CPM S30V having some issues with chipping, but no personal experience with that steel.
I did do one blade in S3V but have not put it to any great challenges or field testing yet. Is chipping a vanadium thing???
I have a project that I was going to acquire some A2 for, but a limited supply of some CPM S30V came into the picture, so not sure which way to go.
458 Lott----nothing personal here and you probably make a good point, but I don't like using a paring knife --even on apples.
The use for squirrels was kind of an extreme condition thing. It would be more of a camp knife than a small game knife.
Thanks, good input.
Any ideas on these choices Sam??????????
Tim
if you can get the A2, that would suit me better. I have no problem though with the S3V so long as it can be touched up in the field with a small diamond stick.
Sam......
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I am not a knife maker but I am a bit of a materials science geek. Assuming a straight air-quench and no other heat-treating protocol shenanigans, A2 has relative toughness peaks at HRC values of 60 and 55. Wandering off 60 in either direction results in reduced performance, although 59 is better than 61. http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsA2v12.pdf?CFID=776323&CFTOKEN=18654335Personally, I feel that if batoning is in the cards, A2 wins. Just be careful to keep it clean and oiled to avoid staining/pitting/corrosion. I know you said you didn't want to hear about other steels, but CPM-3V is A2 on steroids. I can't say enough positive about this stuff.
Last edited by rbmcmjr; 01/30/10.
Rick
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Thanks guys.
I think I will do both. I have enough of the CPM S30V for a couple blades and I will get some A2 for a couple more. What the heck, might as well do both.
Tim
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
Albert Einstein
At Khe Sanh a sign read "For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected never knew".
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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one from each steel might be fun.
Sam......
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 915
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I guess the real question is, what is more important, a blade that will hold and edge a long time, or one that is indestructable. Wayne Goddard has some excellent information in his knifemaking books about edgeholding, and indestructable blades.
What I've taken from his books is, the super steels are great at edgeholding, but if you want a knife that will take tremendous abuse, a differtially hardened high carbon steel is the way to go.
Personally I'll take the tough blade that needs to be touched up more often then the one that'll chip at the edge or break when you abuse it.
And a 6" long 1 1/4" wide 1/4" thick blade is about the last thing I'd want for cleaning a squirrel. Spend $5 on a victronox paring knife, and carry a machete or hatchet for the wood working. Do it all tools tend not to do any one paticular task well. Second that! Thinking ' it will never happen to me' might be an unhealthy thought process? If the chips were down, if you really needed a knife in a survival situation. Add some real cold weather and I am not sure I could trust some of the 'super-steels'? If we had just the one knife. Could a person trust chipping ice, if we had to, with a super-steel blade? Or getting less then perfect firewood to burn by splitting it first? I shun to think what could be left of some steel blades if it were accidentally dropped point down on to a rock? I think Wayne is spot on about this. Had the chance to explain how I understand this to Ed Fowler, as it being the knife you would carry out, instead of the knife your found next to. I believe he liked the answer.
Clinging to my God, and my guns!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'm no expert on this...but the following links show S30V to be pretty tough. I didn't find a direct testing comparison of A2 and S30V, but the second link taughts S30V as having A2-like toughness. I've used A2 and S30V in some rough bushcraft/wood-work over the past year and I've not seen a problem with either. I've not used D2 in the same way but according to what Charles May told me S30V is a much better steel for rough use. I say that not to speak poorly of D2, I've been using it on game for several years now and have been MORE than happy with it in Dozier's and May's. I'm sure the treatment each recieves plays a part...the S30V I've used has been from Mr. May (Skifa Scandi, used less) and the A2 from Bark River Knife and Tool (Kephart FT, used more). http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsS30Vv5.pdfhttp://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtmlhttp://www.knifekits.com/vcom/product_info.php?cPath=46_183&products_id=940
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