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Can't say that you aren't right about China, but our entire country is full of stuff made by them. Does that make a purchase of Zens right or wrong, I guess that's up to the buyer.
Long story short we're getting off base here and quite frankly it's pretty interesting that you can buy a $400 bino that'll compete with a $2000 one. Each to his own I guess.
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Well it just ticks me off to hear people down the chinese people because of their gov't. Do you want to be judged by our current President and what is happening in Washington? I sure don't. I have been to China on many occasions while working in manufacturing and actually helped move our production overseas and setup their data systems and networks. I have made many friends overseas and most are common everyday people trying to make a living. Its crazy when someone states that we will have to answer to our 'maker' for buying a product made there.
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FWIW, while the Zen's are made in China, the ZenRay company itself is U.S. based, meaning a good chunk of mark-up proceeds are likely going into American pockets and keeping an American run company afloat.
Steve- through your relations with Zen, can you give us any idea of how many people are involved in the U.S. operations end of the business?
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I have the ZRS (Summit HD) 10x42s, or is it x40... don't recall. Anyway, for $180 they're pretty damn good. Better, I thought, than Nikon Monarch ATBs and for less money.
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Campfire Kahuna
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that the same factory that makes Zen Rays also makes binoculars for a bunch of other companies. In fact I know of at least 4 other companies marketing binoculars that are so physically close to the Zens that the connection is obvious--and the optics are all pretty close too. The only minor differences are what the individual company's contract for, whether in cosmetics or optics.
There's also the fact that a lot of optics all over the world use Chinese lenses or other parts, and it's almost impossible to differentiate them. They might even say "Made In Japan," or are designed and engineered by a German company.
If we boycott all totally "Made In China" products it won't mean a heck of a lot to China, because they produce so many parts for so many companies world-wide.
As a side-note, one of the reasons German products cost so much is that they are in many ways a socialist country. The standard German work-week is 30 hours long, and normal vacation time is about two months a year. Wages are very high, partly because if they weren't the tax rate wouldn't leave anything to live on, but also to pay for all the social programs. Yes, they are much better about human rights than China, and we generally count them as an ally these days, but much of what we pay for German binoculars goes to support Germany's socialist programs. It doesn't all go into making everything just so.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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10x43 ed2s in hand since last August and I love them. Chicom or not, they've proven themselves to be an extraordinary value. One of my hunting partners looked through mine, and has since bought and become a zenray devotee as well. FWIW...
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From an economic perspective, the Communist government of mainland China is using the money they are getting from the U.S. and Canada (and elsewhere) to:
1. buy up oil reserves around the world, including off the coast of Florida
2. buy up the world's reserves of rare earth metals (check out what the implications of that are) and other minerals/metals critical to production of various products
3. buy up U.S. debt with the ability to exert tremendous pressure on the U.S. government in ways we probably aren't going to like By golly, I sure wish somebody like this would run for President in the good old USA. I'd sure vote for him!
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For arguements sake I could ask you the following:
You could buy 4 or 5 pairs of Zen Rays for one Leica or Swaro and get 98% of the view, you don't need to worry about warranty and I would assume multiple pairs would outlast one Alpha. Seriously why would you care about the warranty . . .
That's comming from a guy that uses Leica, Swaro and other high end optics. Just food for thought I would agree with Waputi, he would summarize my feelings as I also tried a pair but was not happy. If you are used to an alpha, the view, the handling, build are not there. If you are looking for a $400.00 pair of binoculars they may be worth a look. When I buy anything, warranty, reputation are very important in this throw away world! I respectfully disagree on the view. My direct comparison with my trinovids, and my neighbor's SLC and EL tell a different story.......one that says my 10x43 Zen ED2 is a touch brighter than, and has slightly better resolution than the Trinovid and SLC. I'd give a slight edge to the EL over the Zen, but there's not a nickle's worth of difference between the two. Mine have been trouble free for 6 months of hard use.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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As far as I know there are five (maybe four) partners in Zen Ray. I do not know how many of them are involved in day to day operations. Nor do I know how many employees they might have at this point. Also know I won't ask further and post the answer, that isn't my business.
Now the China thing. I can't say I have too much problem with the anti-China sentiment. However, it seems like bitching about Chinese made is sort of like treating the headache with aspirin when the headache is caused by a brain tumor. China is the symptom, not the problem. The problem with today's China influence is the cancer caused by the collective knuckleheads in the three branches of government, that the people collectively have voted for. I know one of the reasons China is not popular here around the fire is the fact that none (well I guess there is at least one exception) of us make a regular habit of voting for the Clinton's, Pelosi's, Reid's, and Obama's of the world who are the problem. Maybe we can start the chemotherapy this November. Maybe Massachusets has already fed it the first dose of radiation.
As far as Europe goes there is a whole continent seeming hell bent on flushing their various national identities in favor the "European Union". European governments seem to me to have been increasingly anti-US in philosophy and stance. The continent is being sucked up the pipe of the UN. Now try and tell me that the UN is any less harmful to US interests than China. At least it is not China trying to cram the Global Warming "Koyoto-crap" down our throats. Neither is China responsible for various cites "Treaties". Need I go on? I just don't particularly see the European Union and the UN as a heck of a lot less harmful than China.
So it really gets down to how each individual wants to spend their money. I'd rather buy a Zen Ray from Charles or a Promaster from Doug and support a US company. Yeah $400 bucks is $400 bucks. Heck yea, $2,000 is $2,000 bucks. That happens to be what you need to spend to get a better glass than a ZEN ED or a Promaster. We will always have the "Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" components, whatever we buy these days,
Steve
Theodore Roosevelt: "Do what you can where you are with what you have"
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It's not that complicated. I don't like China's human rights, wage or trade policies, or the way they manipulate markets. Therefor, I don't buy Chinese products if I can afford a quality alternative. Wherever possible I try to buy US made products in order to support US employment and US manufacturing expertise. That's it in a nutshell for me.
A company like "Zen-Ray", which as far as I can tell amounts to a few guys in the import-export business, doesn't really qualify with me. They sell some impressive binoculars for the money, but they don't appear to actually "make" anything but money. It's good that they keep the alphas honest, but I think it's perfectly legitimate to question whether it's right to support products from a system which is not really free market over free market goods from the US and elsewhere.
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I think you would be shocked to walk around your home and look at the products that are made in China. That doesn't even count the parts China makes and sends them elsewhere for assembly.
China owns about 25% of the US debt at last count. They could drop us to our knees if they call in the US Treauries they hold - course they would loose out as well as they rely on us for their exports. A delicate balance - a walk with the devil.
Last edited by bigwhoop; 02/04/10.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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The country of origin is a tough issue to skirt these days as such a large majority of items are imported, espcially from China.
I do admit I was drawn toward purchasing my Leupold Mojaves knowing I was supporting a long-term U.S. company even thought the optics themselves were produced in Japan. But I liked that option better than the alternatives.
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I think you would be shocked to walk around your home and look at the products that are made in China. That doesn't even count the parts China makes and sends them elsewhere for assembly.
China owns about 25% of the US debt at last count. They could drop us to our knees if they call in the US Treauries they hold - course they would loose out as well as they rely on us for their exports. A delicate balance - a walk with the devil. I would definitely not be surprised. But we're talking about the difference between doing what you and not doing what you can. Or maybe not giving a damn.
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I think you would be shocked to walk around your home and look at the products that are made in China. That doesn't even count the parts China makes and sends them elsewhere for assembly.
China owns about 25% of the US debt at last count. They could drop us to our knees if they call in the US Treauries they hold - course they would loose out as well as they rely on us for their exports. A delicate balance - a walk with the devil. I've heard it referred to as getting within leash length of the devil.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
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How about "the borrower is slave to the lender"...taken from the Good Book?
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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I have the first version of ZEN ED for almost a year. They are very good. I used them hard. But I did take good care of it, just like all my other gears. The optics is great. I cannot find anything close in its price point.
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As far as I know there are five (maybe four) partners in Zen Ray. I do not know how many of them are involved in day to day operations. Nor do I know how many employees they might have at this point. Also know I won't ask further and post the answer, that isn't my business.
Now the China thing. I can't say I have too much problem with the anti-China sentiment. However, it seems like bitching about Chinese made is sort of like treating the headache with aspirin when the headache is caused by a brain tumor. China is the symptom, not the problem. The problem with today's China influence is the cancer caused by the collective knuckleheads in the three branches of government, that the people collectively have voted for. I know one of the reasons China is not popular here around the fire is the fact that none (well I guess there is at least one exception) of us make a regular habit of voting for the Clinton's, Pelosi's, Reid's, and Obama's of the world who are the problem. Maybe we can start the chemotherapy this November. Maybe Massachusets has already fed it the first dose of radiation.
As far as Europe goes there is a whole continent seeming hell bent on flushing their various national identities in favor the "European Union". European governments seem to me to have been increasingly anti-US in philosophy and stance. The continent is being sucked up the pipe of the UN. Now try and tell me that the UN is any less harmful to US interests than China. At least it is not China trying to cram the Global Warming "Koyoto-crap" down our throats. Neither is China responsible for various cites "Treaties". Need I go on? I just don't particularly see the European Union and the UN as a heck of a lot less harmful than China.
So it really gets down to how each individual wants to spend their money. I'd rather buy a Zen Ray from Charles or a Promaster from Doug and support a US company. Yeah $400 bucks is $400 bucks. Heck yea, $2,000 is $2,000 bucks. That happens to be what you need to spend to get a better glass than a ZEN ED or a Promaster. We will always have the "Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" components, whatever we buy these days,
Good points on both sides, however it seems as though you are stretching to defend the origin of the ZEN Optics which you strongly support. In any case, before we burn all the European optics at the stake in this thread alongside the Chinese, I believe Meopta is a U.S. owned company so perhaps they should be spared to a degree?
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My two cents would be to wait and see how well they hold up.
Good binoculars that have views close or very close to that of the alphas are pretty common. But truly rugged binoculars are not from what I can learn. The Leicas, the Leupold Gold Rings and the older Nikon LX stuff, having survivied the famous Alaskan Guide Test, are some of the few with proven ruggedness.
I use a cheap bino or two myself. But for serious hunting trips, I'd pay the extra bucks for something that won't let me down in the middle of an important hunt. It may not, for instance, be practicaal to return to camp for a replacement when the moment is upon you or it's many miles back for it. E
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For once, I agree with you E. I have used my ProMasters hard for over a year now and they have held up. However, if I were to have a chance at a hunt of a life time, I would def be making another purchase of some bino's and have my ProMaster's for backup. But in reality for the 'everyday Joe' who hunts when he can, $350-$400 for a set comparable to alphas, it is really a no brainer.
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True - it also depends on how you hunt. I don't go on 7 day backpack hunts (wish I did but I don't). If my Promasters let me down I'll return to camp and get another set but it wouldn't ruin my trip by any stretch.
This durability thing is a bit overplayed as well, what do people do with binos, heck they're around my neck and how am I going to damage them while hunting???
For the record the ProMaster (and I assume the Zen ED2) are better than most of the competition now. I just bought a pair of Nikon LX 8x32's, only did as they were $300 bucks. They aren't Alpha glass however like some claim, neither are Pentax SP's, although the LX's are nicer.
As you say for the average Joe a Zen or ProMaster is idiot proof for the dollars and quite frankly you may have a hard time justifing a Leica or Swaro . . .
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