Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters What cartridges don't kill as well as the book would suggest?

Bullets kill.

In these days of the space age premium bullets, its not the cartridge performance that matters so much as bullet selection and trigger discipline.

Seriously? That's all my hunter's ed teacher used....and yes elk too. That was about 40 yrs ago. I'm gettin' old

Hey, don't remind me of "old"....

Never again....

I'm pretty sure it was Jim Carmichael.

It probably was. I believe I heard about it on the 'net, but don't usually read OUTDOOR LIFE anymore so probably missed the column. It isn't exactly one of the burning issues among average hunters.

Ray, your post on the 25-35 reminded me of my time in a small mountain community in Colorado, located pretty close to the back fence of the Forbes Trinchera ranch. A lot of the locals had old 25-20 and 22 Hornet rifles which I thought was odd for big game country. Took me about a year to figure out why these non-hunters always had elk and deer in the freezer. A whole lot of don't ask, don't tell there. LOL.

I'll submit my experience with the 7mm Rem Magnum. I have yet to obtain a 1 shot drop with this rifle and cartridge yet. Probably just a combination of conditions at the times it's been used, but still frustrating.

Once was at long range with a big muley that just wouldn't go down. I hit him in the front shoulder, the leg was literally hanging there and we tracked him for over 8 hours before catching up to him again. An additional shot in the neck from my 7 Mag, one in the chest from my buddy's .30-06 brought him down but a pistol shot was need to finish the job.

Two other times were with elk at very close range. One was a neck shot the other was a chest shot. Both animals bolted and had to be tracked and brought down with a second shot. In both instances the first shot had gone clean through and exited without hitting bone or vital organs. Bullets used were 175gr. Speer Grand Slams. The only thing we could figure was at such close range with the sectional destiny of the 7 Mag and its velocity, the bullets just zipped through and never expanded.

Hitting the front shoulder.....leg hanging. Neck shot/chest shot. Since they we're recovered, we have a bullet path, right?

Nicking stuff around the edges the first shot sometimes makes stuff "bulletproof".

Well Mosby,it seems you have been just damned unlucky......

Read your sentence above for the key to your problem....you say "in both instances the first shot had gone clean through and exited without hitting bone or vital organs "......

You did not have a cartridge problem, nor a bullet problem,...you had a shooting/placement problem. And "no",bullets started at high velocity don't zip through without expanding.

Bullets fired from any cartridge can't kill (at least quickly) unless they hit vital organs.

On the ironclad mule deer, you may have broken the shoulder,but you did not get a bullet into the vitals;you now know that deer with one broken shoulder can travel....use a bullet that will break shouders and penetrate vitals,and you won't have the problem

I've been lucky (so far) that the deer that I've shot with a rifle were hit well. Now I have made some not so good hits with an arrow and a 12ga slug unfortunately. I realiized that the BS about "a 12ga slug will knock 'em down blah blah blah" was just that...BS. Deer can cover a good deal of real estate when they're not hit well, even with a 1oz. slug! I did recover the deer (next morning) but it really highlighted how shot placement is the most important component when it comes to killing game (big surprise). I also, finally admitted to myself that a light weight 12ga slug gun kicks too hard for me. So, I stick to rigs that I can handle these days.

There seems to be an aversion to using premium bullets that don't come apart (Barnes, Swift, Partitions, the new Nosler/Hornady monolythics, Brenekke slugs) and shooting the durned deer/elk/antelope/goat/sheep etc. through BOTH front shoulders. Yea you might lose 5-7 pound of so so meat BUT they fall down on the spot and die right now. No ungulate can run on two legs. Been working for me since I took my first whitetail with a borrowed Model 12 and Brenekke slugs in 1957.

Stick around here and read lots of threads you will learn a lot.

Animal hit in the "vitals" do not travel for 8 hours

Bullets don't zipp through without expanding at high velocities.

I always thought the 12Gauge slug was way over-rated as a deer round. I have somewhat limited experience with them, but never been impressed especially once you get out around 75-100 yards.

Lou

Cartridges do not kill. Bullets do.
On that basis, there is no such cartridge that fits the question.

I know we are thinking of �big game� cartridges in this thread but I surprised to not see the 17HRM mentioned.
I am a small game and varmint hunter and I am fascinated by the accuracy of the 17HRM. If the critters are small such as �picket pin� ground squirrels, the 17HRM kills very well out to �unreasonable distances.� Larger, heavy bodied critters such as skunks and raccoons are an entirely different matter. The 17HRM, regardless of bullet weight, has not demonstrated and ability to �turn out the lights instantly� for me.
I have experienced quicker kills on well muscled varmints using the 50-grain Federal Premium load in the 22 Magnum when aiming at the point of the shoulder or for the opposite shoulder on treed critters, or those hiding in brush. The new light weight 22 Magnum load from Remington has also proven to be quite accurate and a quick killer, although not quite as reliable as the heavier bullet from Federal.
I know some hunt prairie dog with the 17HRM and I have assumed they were head shooting as I have read no mention of a lack of killing power.

Bullets dont kill anything unless launched from the part of a total system of which one component is a cartridge, and that is the subject here.

Maybe the ones that dont kill better because of their paper ballistics are the fast big bores. If the 375H&H is good for anything alive, and we have reliable killers in the 416' R's and the 458's, not to mention the Nitro Express rounds, then what do we gain from the high energy figures for the 460 Weatherby besides dislodged shoulders?

One legendary killer is the 22 Hornet - that supposedly only kills well in the hands of Natives in the north, who also magically push up the power of the 222 Remington also.


Honestly the only thing that raises or lowers a cartridge above the line created by the trio of bore, bullet weight, and velocity, is the construction of the bullet itself.

Not impressed with a 12 bore deer slug? You are correct it is a max (ethical) 100 yard proposition by my pal's A Bolt fully rifled 12 bore will put 5 Barnes/Federal sabots in a playing card @ 100 and my 870 with a 24" Hastings bbl and a loopie 1-4 will put 5 Brenneke Golds in 4-5" at 100. Trust me they will kill anything that walks the 50 states within their proper envelope.

My experience with small bores is in the Canadian Arctic, in the hands of my eskimo co-workers, which I had hired to accompany myself on a search of polar bear dens, on month long trips at the time over a period of 4 years. We are talking now about the first 5 years in the 1970's.
On those trips they also shot their legal quota of polar bears, their seals and caribou, ptarmigan and arctic hares for our meat supplies. In short we were living mainly of the land with a good supply of bannock, tea, sugar, jam, frozen char ...............and for them lots of tobacco and cigaret paper.
They shot polar bears with the .25-06,30-06, 308, 6mm, 243, .222 and one time with the 5mm Remington magnum in the head at 30 yards.
The most popular cartridge there were the .22 lr for small game and the odd caribou, the .222 and the .243/6mm. The .243/6mm was regarded as alround suitable from muskoxen/bears to seals.
Of the 24 bear kills I witnessed, I believe 2 were shot with the .25-06, about 4 with the 06, three with the .308, the rest were taken with the .222, .243, 6mm . Most bears were in the 250-600 lbs range, with 3 going over that. The largest one around 900 lbs killed with one lucky shots through the carotids with a .308 in a Savage 99.( He was aiming for the head). I remember the larger cals and the number of kills because we did not often carry the larger cals. Eskimos usually bring only one rifle on a hunting trip. The rifle they want to bring is the one that they happen to own or the one that will do for caribou, seals, rabbits and the odd bear. Eskimos have not been pleased by the 06 or .270 due to pelt damage on bears caused by large exit wounds. Bullet weights in those days was picked by the store managers, the eskimos in those days did not know much about bullet types and weights. However the 06 , .308 and also the .303 british were favoured for walrus/narwhal, beluga hunting.
Small bores were preferred because seals are still the no.1 game animal hunted. The .222 at the time was considered just fine for seals and the Peary caribou, a small race off caribou turning white with some gray in the winter and about 100-150 lbs on the hoof. If a bear was spotted on the seal/caribou hunt it was persued and shot with the .222.
Bears were hunted from the skidoo by chasing and tiring it out until they are exhausted. They are then approached and plinked of in relative safety from the skidoo with one or two good shots in the lungs, heart or brain. Not very sporting, but for the eskimos it is just fur collecting.

I witnessed quite a few kills of caribou with the .22 long rifle using solids. Peary caribou are easily approached to within 50-75 yards. One or two solids in the lungs/heart was sufficient. I never saw them run after the shot,except with heart shots.They usually lowered their heads and drowned in their own blood at the same place as they were shot, usually within 45 seconds, remembering timing a number of shots. Even when they run, it is wide open for hundreds of miles, with nowhere to go. Besides caribou,the .22 lr was mainly used for ptarmigan and arctic hares.
Things have changed somewhat now I understand.
Some progressive souls have been using the odd.375 or .458 for beluga and Narwhal hunting. Still the .303 with solids reigns king for that game.

The deer I killed with a .22LR both dropped instantly. Head shots. One was sick, the other injured.

I'll cop to the cartridge that, to my mind, performed "less" than it's campfire reputation would suggest. 7mm-08.

I've killed 7-8 deer with it and had a couple that really ran even well-hit. Just seemed unimpressed with it, they did.

I mostly used the 150 NP. In my M7, which had a slowish 20" tube, my MV was lucky to top 2600 fps so that might play into it.