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Joined: Nov 2004
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a take off from my CZ thread. I was in a pawn shop a few years back and they had a heavy duty steel hubcab that had been shot with just about every pistol round you can think of. the 45 ACP was one of the few that didn't go through it, it just dented it badly. I was wondering if there is anyone else out here that thinks with modern bullets and modern high pressure loadings, that the 45acp might not be all that great a man stopper that it once was in comparison to lesser rounds.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
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Penetration of steel, ain't a measure of stopping ability.
The .45ACP, with quality JHPs, is STILL the king of the hill. It delivers a large frontal area to the target, with considerable mass, good penetration, excellent energy transfer, and SLOW enough to dump that energy in the target over a decent amount of time, while fast enough to hit hard.
The .45ACP remains on the top of my list to shoot at stuff with from a defensive handgun, and on the bottom of my list as far as handgun rounds I'd want to be shot at with.
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2006
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100 years of combat service for one thing.
Being housed in perhaps the perfect pistol also helps.
When you consider that the 45 ACP was intended to approximate the original black powder load of the 45 Colt adopted by the Army, you could say that we achieved perfection in lethality around 1873--a .452 projectile, 230-250gr in weight, at 750fps.
I like all cartridges, particularly when someone else is buying the ammo, but if I could only have one in a pistol, it'd be the 45. Not from the hype, but from the experience.
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Joined: Mar 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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First of all, that would depend on what load was shot at the hubcap, etc. Targer wadcutters, for instance, don't do nearly that well. Even the standard 230 gr. ammo can vary some. The last batch of WW, 230 gr. HP stuff I saw clocked just under 800 fps. Even the well regarded Federal Hydra-Shok clocked only about 850 fps. Step up to the +P style load or the old Western HD load, that's a 230 gr. bullet at 950 fps., and you have a different animal.
I've seen the 230 gr. HS HP shoot right through angled windshield glass with plenty left to do the job.
The other factor is recoil management. Even the old .45 ACP load is pretty tough or even too hard to handle for some folks. One of the reasons why the 40 S&W is so popular. The tradeoff being a high pressure, critical to load for round. E
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The "hype" isnt! It's a proven round.
Ignorance is not confined to uneducated people.
WHO IS JOHN GALT?
LIBERTY!
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Campfire Outfitter
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The .45 ACP does the job it was designed for reliably and consistently without a lot of fuss and muss. I doubt in a defensive scenario I have the need to stop a runaway hubcap. However, the reputation of about a century of knocking the fight outta bad guys gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when I'm strapping the old warhorse cartridge.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 350
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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you can try to debate the 45 but if you don't shoot them and the others you want to compare it to your wasting time. go shot them and decide.
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The "hype" isnt! It's a proven round. Exactly.
μολὼν λαβέ
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I have a pal who shot a runaway hubcap once. It was attached to a stolen vehicle which was in the process of trying to run over several police officers in East St. Louis. My pal fired a scattergun with buckshot at a tire as he dodged the vehicle, blowing said hubcap off the vehicle and causing said vehicle to roll several times at high speed. The hubcap now hangs as a trophy in his garage.
Having said that... and back on topic... the 45 is a proven man-stopper. Period. No question. End of story.
If you're fixin' to put a hole in something,
make it a hole to remember.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Having said that... and back on topic... the 45 is a proven man-stopper. Period. No question. End of story. Yep.
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Campfire Outfitter
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A lot of things that won't penetrate a hubcap will take all the fight out of a man right now.
A lot of the things that will penetrate a hubcap won't.
Mathew 22: 37-39
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Campfire Outfitter
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... they had a heavy duty steel hubcab that had been shot with just about every pistol round you can think of. the 45 ACP was one of the few that didn't go through it, it just dented it badly. Hmmm. Do you think if you'd shot a .45 ACP at the pawn shop owner's car door it would have penetrated or just bounced off? I haven't tried it myself, but maybe one or two of the members here have shot a junker with one, and can say. - Tom
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Campfire Regular
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... The other factor is recoil management. Even the old .45 ACP load is pretty tough or even too hard to handle for some folks. One of the reasons why the 40 S&W is so popular. The tradeoff being a high pressure, critical to load for round. E That's interesting to me, if I'm reading you right. I find the .45 easier to shoot than .40, relative to recoil. It's not in the same gun however and maybe that's part of it, but for me the .45 has been a pleasure, whereas I thought the .40 had more recoil.
Deserve's got nothing to do with it.
TripleA RV in Medford, OR SUCKS
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Campfire Regular
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The .45ACP remains on the top of my list to shoot at stuff with from a defensive handgun, and on the bottom of my list as far as handgun rounds I'd want to be shot at with. Exactly..... I read an article once that said that if a 200 lb man was running at you and you hit him in the chest with a 45 ACP round, the first thing to hit the ground would be the back of his head. I've never tested that but if it is true, there's a lot of energy going on. I like the 45 ACP... Elwood
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I would rather shoot someone with a .45 than a 9mm.. Twice as much mass on the human body would seem to put a stop to whatever that guy was doing.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 18,881 |
There is something to this bussiness of "stopping power" from what I've seen. Know a cop who took a light target wadcutter 45 ACP round in the flax vest. Had to have help to get on his feet.
Took a report from another cop once that managed to shoot himself through the palm of his hand with a .38 special. While odviously it hurt, he lost only the use of his hand for a while.
In contrast, I know of another who managed to shoot himself in the same place with a .45 ACP. Dropped him to the ground. Suffered severe pain all the way to his shoulder from the impact.
Big difference, odviously. E
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Campfire Outfitter
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Eremicus,
I believe the mental state of the victim accounts for the reaction you describe. Some people have that �fight or flight� thing very strong and are very hard to hurt. Others when they discover they are injured immediately begin to show signs of it. I�ve seen it many times and it is a curious thing.
The original owner of Second Chance Body Armor toured the country shooting himself with various handgun calibers into his company�s bullet resistant vest to prove that a person can not only survive a hit when wearing a vest, but also immediately stay up and in the fight. In these demonstrations he would don his body armor, turn the gun carefully on his torso, fire a shot into the vest he was wearing, then immediately turn the gun and empty it into a target. His favorite gun for these demos was a .44 Magnum revolver. He actually did this with a 7.62 NATO rifle ammo fired from a FN/FAL rifle. Of course he wore heavier armor designed for rifle rounds, but he stood on one leg and had his father shoot him in the chest with the .308 FMJ round and he barely wobbled! I have the video it is pretty amazing to watch how little the energy of the rifle actually affected his balance. I think this guys name was Richard Davis?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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Eremicus,
I believe the mental state of the victim accounts for the reaction you describe. Some people have that �fight or flight� thing very strong and are very hard to hurt. Others when they discover they are injured immediately begin to show signs of it. I�ve seen it many times and it is a curious thing.
The original owner of Second Chance Body Armor toured the country shooting himself with various handgun calibers into his company�s bullet resistant vest to prove that a person can not only survive a hit when wearing a vest, but also immediately stay up and in the fight. In these demonstrations he would don his body armor, turn the gun carefully on his torso, fire a shot into the vest he was wearing, then immediately turn the gun and empty it into a target. His favorite gun for these demos was a .44 Magnum revolver. He actually did this with a 7.62 NATO rifle ammo fired from a FN/FAL rifle. Of course he wore heavier armor designed for rifle rounds, but he stood on one leg and had his father shoot him in the chest with the .308 FMJ round and he barely wobbled! I have the video it is pretty amazing to watch how little the energy of the rifle actually affected his balance. I think this guys name was Richard Davis?
I've seen the video. I've always wondered if it was a full charge of powder, and if it was a soft lead bullet being fired into the vest.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,098 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
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Besides the history associated with it, the 45 ACP is just a good balance of power, diameter, and shootability for self defense. relatively low operating pressure keeps the report a tad milder too. I shoot the 9 and 40 too, but there is something very satisfying about the 45 ACPs sheer bullet size.
Barrier penetration isn't really it's strong suite though. I was shooting some 230gr ball through a 55 gal drum one day, it penetrated the first side, dented the far side, and fell in the drum.
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Campfire Tracker
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The .45 may be slow, but don't worrry it will get to its target.
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