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No such thing as overkill - yet underkill is possible.
As an aside - cartridges do not kill. Bullets do - when placed in anatomic neccessities. Missing the point. People give the reputation of effectiveness to cartridges as readily as to bullets. I could find a dozen threads about the "amazing 45/70" that don't mention a bullet type specifically... And in this instance cartridges is a way of saying a bullet of a certain weight at a certain velocity.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sorry for the top post. Bob, I don't believe Steve Dogzapper to be a spewer of BS. To the contrary. You might drop him a PM and ask directly about his experience that I related. It may have been the 175 7mm Partition, too. I'll stand by my statement that relative to it's rep as some sort of super-killer around here, the 7mm-08/150 NP combo left me cold, with a sample size of 7-8 animals. You never know what will happen when a bullet hits meat and bone. Shoot more than once if necessary. The more you practice your shooting from field positions, the fewer shots will be necessary in the field...
Hunters are an anecdotal breed, and bad juju on calibers and loads spreads faster than swine flu.
coldcase: That's a good observation....  IMO this is because many hunters/shooters operate under the mistaken notion that rifles/bullets, etc are bludgeons;over sized clubs or Mack Trucks that "knock down" game animals, and kill by mysterious forces measureable by numbers and slipsticks,and that there is this vast difference between a Partition and an Accubond, etc etc.... They fail to realize that,in the end, BG rifles are (as O'Connor once wrote)scalpels;instruments designed to perform a surgical function at a distance,ie destroy vital organs and break heavy bone in the process that are essential to life and mobility. So when they shoot an animal squarely through the boiler room (they think), or maybe hit a bit on the bias,or miss vitals or other essential stuff altogether,or use a bullet too tough or too soft and the uncooperative critter fails to fall down immediately, the cartridge is a "lousy killer"......or the "bullet failed",and you read such supersilious nonsense as was posted above regarding the 7 mag and heavy Partitions,with the guides drawing straws so the loser ends up with the Partition shooter.Sometimes the offending cartridge is the 30/06....or the 243...or the 270.Comical really....kinda like Saturday morning cartoons......  Frankly I believe none of it at all..  ..I have been in a lot of hunting camps,paid for a lot of hunts,and been "guided" here and there.I notice that guides tend to scrammble from fellas who do not do so hot at the sighting-in session....this little exercise is not just to see if your rifle is zeroed........it's to check YOU out as well. I have never been sent packing because of the rifle,cartridge, or bullet that I was shooting.... It is no small wonder that there is so much utter nonsense spewed about by people with vacant agendas regarding cartridge effectiveness.(sigh)
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FÜCK PUTIN!
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Jeff: What I suspect Dogzapper and his guiding buddies were seeing was alot of sloppy, indifferent shooting by clients,and not any real defficiencies on the part of the bullets in question. If heavy 7mm Partitions driven at magnum velocities(for me 160's)are in any way lacking in effectiveness on elk,I must be living in an alternate universe I have seen some very experienced elk outfitters specifically recommend Partitions,among others.
Last edited by BobinNH; 02/09/10.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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No such thing as overkill - yet underkill is possible.
As an aside - cartridges do not kill. Bullets do - when placed in anatomic neccessities. Missing the point. People give the reputation of effectiveness to cartridges as readily as to bullets. I could find a dozen threads about the "amazing 45/70" that don't mention a bullet type specifically... And in this instance cartridges is a way of saying a bullet of a certain weight at a certain velocity. So you are saying: "A wrong repeated many times is a right."? I do not believe that. The formula: "cartridges is a way of saying a bullet of a certain weight at a certain velocity." still leaves construction of the bullet and shot placement out of the picture. Which is my point - not missed.
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A frangible bullet placed in the ribcage performs well.
A frangible bullet placed where meat and bone must be penetrated does not perform well.
A tough bullet placed in the ribcage does not perform as well.
A tough bullet placed where meat and bone must be penetrated performs well if it reached the vitals.
It's all good. Pick your poison, understand the limitations, place the bullet accordingly, and get out your knife. I think the debate never ends because some folks insist on placing a frangible bullet in a hard spot, or a tough bullet in the ribcage. Match the shot to the load and you're golden.
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Our God reigns.
Harrumph!!!
I often use quick reply. My posts are not directed toward any specific person unless I mention them by name.
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243 Winchester
It doesn't leave a blood trail with typical game bullets. That can be a major problem in thick brush when you can lose a wounded animal fast. Most users are not going to be shooting TSX's and Partitions.
It doesn't have enough whoomph at longer ranges for larger deer and game larger than deer.
It just needs to be held to it's limits. Two of my best trophies were taken with it when I was a beginner.
As to the 7 REM MAG-
dogzapper explained that the 7 REM MAG with heavier, stout bullets penciled through elk and that 150 Hornadies into the lungs anchored them. He saw it repeatedly and examined the animals, so it was not speculation.
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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As to the 7 REM MAG-
dogzapper explained that the 7 REM MAG with heavier, stout bullets penciled through elk and that 150 Hornadys into the lungs anchored them. He saw it repeatedly and examined the animals, so it was not speculation.
That's what I saw and that was my experience. No, I sould not retract a single word. I've killed a crapload of elk and seen another hundred+++ more killed. That's just the way it is. Back to deep, deep, deep lurkdom. Steve
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
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243 Winchester
It doesn't leave a blood trail with typical game bullets. That can be a major problem in thick brush when you can lose a wounded animal fast. Most users are not going to be shooting TSX's and Partitions.
It doesn't have enough whoomph at longer ranges for larger deer and game larger than deer.
It just needs to be held to it's limits. Two of my best trophies were taken with it when I was a beginner.
Well guy, maybe you need to hold yourself to your limits like you did when you were a youngster. I've never lost an animal with the 243 Win .You need to load 100 gr Hornady SP flatbase and get out your knife cause your gonna need it, if you can hit what you shoot at. Don't mean to be critical but I've heard that statement like a mantra from people who have never owned one, so that establishes its value to me. Good day Magnum_Man
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No such thing as overkill - yet underkill is possible.
As an aside - cartridges do not kill. Bullets do - when placed in anatomic neccessities. Missing the point. People give the reputation of effectiveness to cartridges as readily as to bullets. I could find a dozen threads about the "amazing 45/70" that don't mention a bullet type specifically... And in this instance cartridges is a way of saying a bullet of a certain weight at a certain velocity. So you are saying: "A wrong repeated many times is a right."? I do not believe that. The formula: "cartridges is a way of saying a bullet of a certain weight at a certain velocity." still leaves construction of the bullet and shot placement out of the picture. Which is my point - not missed. I'm assuming proper shot placement, because we have to start somewhere and if everyone has a circlejerk about shot placement we won't have room to discuss anything else. As to bullet construction, if I wanted to talk about the merits of particular bullets, that would be the subject of this thread. Rather, assume that bullets appropriate for the game and cartridge are used. Point of fact, I believe that part of the reason cartridges in the 2500-2900 fps class have a reputation for excellent performance in the real world is entirely related to bullet selection, in that some people are not capable of selecting the proper bullets. But my overarching point is that we think too much, and care too much about velocity.
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...new laws were most numerous when the commonwealth was most corrupt. ~ Publius Cornelius Tacitus
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243 Winchester
It doesn't leave a blood trail with typical game bullets. That can be a major problem in thick brush when you can lose a wounded animal fast. Most users are not going to be shooting TSX's and Partitions.
It doesn't have enough whoomph at longer ranges for larger deer and game larger than deer.
It just needs to be held to it's limits. Two of my best trophies were taken with it when I was a beginner.
As to the 7 REM MAG-
dogzapper explained that the 7 REM MAG with heavier, stout bullets penciled through elk and that 150 Hornadies into the lungs anchored them. He saw it repeatedly and examined the animals, so it was not speculation.
Sigh..... 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Huuuummmm. What to say, what to say.
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I guess for me, I've seen several animals shot with 7mm Rem Mag with various bullet weights and I've never seen one drop, even with good shot placement. Most shots were not long. But they all died just fine. Just no DRT.
This said, I've seen deer and elk shot with a 308s, 30-06s, 270s and all were dumped on the spot. Strange. I think coincidence.
Last edited by Dan360; 02/09/10.
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I saw a leaping caribou hit with a 7RM and it balled up so hard on the landing I think the jaw was broken. High marks on that one from me, but an inconsequential sampling.
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Back to the .243, I sure had my doubts, but when setting my 11 year old up this year with a tikka .243 for his first deer hunt, we loaded up some 80 grain TTSX, I looked at that little bullet and thought to myself, boy, sure looks small, I wasn't too sure about it on our big whitetails. Well at about 50 yards, it dropped a 5pt pronto and left a golf ball sized hole on through, opened my eyes quite a bit to the .243....it just might be ok..
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Magnum Man The 243 is what I would use for youngsters and field shots where you could see the animal fall. I dead centered lungs with it and animals usually continued on about 25 to 40 yards. It can be for people who are uncomfortable with recoil. I know more people who used it and then moved up to something like a 270 and then moved right back with the 243 because of recoil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice. It took me years personally to move up to the comfort level with the recoil of larger cartridges and then, heavy boomers. It performed OK with the animals I harvested but there are better cartridges for more difficult angles, larger animals, and extended ranges. To BobinNH on the 7 Rem Mag which I used in the West, Double sigh back at ya
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A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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