Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles What has happened to GROOVE Bullets

Yeah!

Now if I can only figger out where these Barnes TSX 270 grain .375 diameter bullets on my shelf came from?! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

They make 270 and 300 grain TSX's. Go to www.midwayusa.com and search for triple-shock 375.

The accuracy of the Groovebullets has been outstanding for me. I have shot .12" groups in my 25-06 and .4" groups out of my 300 SAUM. The best I have been able to get out of the 168 TSX is .7" and that was with substantially more work. All groups @ 100 yards.

This year the .257 cal Groovebullet took 5 antelope, one mule deer and two whitetails with exceptional performance. Ranges were from 110 to 497 yards. I intend to use this bullet for an upcoming cow elk hunt.

I am a big fan of the TSX and due to economics I use them in my 300 SAUM. Groovebullets are the best combination of accuracy and performance I have ever seen.

Quiethunter,
You won't be dissapointed, shot a cow with a 206gr .338 cal Groove out of my .340wby last year.. had blood squirting out both sides for about 10ft out each side. Tough animals she stood there for a few seconds took a few steps, I couldn't believe it so I busted her again and down she went. Entrance hole was about inch in diameter, exit was a bit bigger, shoulder scapula and heart and some lung was all liquid.. I went to Barnes triple shocks because I ran out of the Groovies this year.

Hi Bill,
It has been some time since we last spoke. I hope you are keeping well.

Your remark: "Andre Quinsa has been making these grooved bullets for more than 10 years and I believe he predates even Gerard Schultz in this concept." is entirely correct. Grooved bullets are as old as the hills and definitely predate our HV and FN bullets. Fact is, up to this day we have not made any grooved bullets other than experimentally.

Some clarification is required regarding the current crop of bullets that are not smooth sided. They fall into two distinct groups. Those that are grooved and those that employ drive bands.

The bullets that can be classed as drive band bullets are our HV and FN ranges, the KJG bullets from Lutz Moeller and the Bridger bullets that are no longer available.

All the rest are grooved bullets.

As to the difference between the two, this is easily defined.

Grooved bullet - A normal profile bullet with grooves cut into the shank. The ogive meets the shank at a diameter equal to the groove diameter of the barrel. Grooves in the bullet shaft are cut to a depth that that bears no relationship to the bore diameter of the barrel. The total grooved area is usually less than the total remaining shaft area.

Drive band bullet - The bullet is manufactured to a diameter that conforms to the bore diameter of the barrel. The ogive terminates at a diameter that equals the bore diameter of the barrel and immediately steps up to a band at barrel groove diameter, with a series of bands following the first. The total drive band area is always less than the remaining shaft area of the bullet.

When a grooved bullet is driven from the case, through the throat of the barrel and into the rifling, the lands of the barrel engraves a portion of the ogive, the first section of shaft up to the first groove and then the shaft from groove to groove.

When a drive band bullet is driven along the same path, only the drive bands are engraved while the shaft of the bullet rides on the faces of the lands of the barrel.

If we consider only internal ballistics, the advantages of drive bands are:

Less pressure is required to get the bullet through the throat. This increases speed while peak chamber pressure remains at safe levels and peaks further down the barrel.

Barrels run cooler with less throat erosion and less fouling.

The pressure curve rises more smoothly. This causes less vibration within the system and increases accuracy.

For the record then, I can state that we were the first manufacturer to produce a range of dual diameter bullets configured to precisiely the two diameters that exist in any rifled barrel.

Delta Hunter,

Groove Bullets are designed to loose the petals after entering the animal, then the back of the bullet keeps its shape and drives on through - providing a bleeding hole. When Groove Bullets loose their petals, they are working as designed. When I see a huge mushroom on a bullet all I can think of is "meat damage". The petals coming off versus a mushroom are simply 2 different designs. We like the fact that the back of the Groove Bullet holds together and drives on through - providing a bleeder hole.

As to the issue of "driving bands" versus "grooves". Gerard did a relatively good job of explaining the differences and of course he is trying to sell his product so he had to say driving bands are more accurate even if most any bench rest shooter would disagree. Ask any competent bench rest shooter, be it 100, 200 or 1000 yards, most of them like the bullet touching the lands. That isn't possible with a "banded" bullet and still have enough of the bullet pressed into the neck to accurately align the bullet down the bore.

The depth of the Groove Bullets are a precise depth based on the "flow" of material as the bullet engages the rifling. The first Groove is of a depth to completely fill it, this provides proper alignment, the balance of the grooves allow for less bearing surface. Of course Gerard wouldn't know that.

I have used Gerards bullets and they do provide high velocities, more so then Groove Bullets of the same weight, in a given cartridge. What bothered me about the "driving bands" was how little of the outside diameter of the bands came in contact with the case neck. They were easily moved (distorted) when bumped. I never actually killed an animal using Gerards bullets but he is right, I did see an increase in velocity.

Groove Bullets is not going out of business. We are re-tooling and designing and testing a wide range of bullets. We are re-designing some of the larger calibers (338 and larger) to allow the petals to come off at lower velocities.

On a trip I made last May - to South Africa - I made a follow up shot on a Zebra (the only shot I had to put the animal down for good) - Texas Heart Shot. I was using a 375 H&H AI and the 272gr EXP Groove Bullet. That bullet was found between 2 front ribs. That is the only Groove Bullet I know of that has been recovered from inside an animal. That bullet traveled nearly 6 feet through a Zebra.

When hunters see a "mushroom" most think, yeah, thats the ticket. At Groove Bullets we designed our bullets NOT to mushroom.

We are experimenting with various copper alloys to provide even better performance in the future.

Thanks for your interest.

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Don,
I am surprised at your statement that a drive band bullet cannot be loaded to touch the lands and still be stable in the case. It only takes two drive bands in the case neck to align the bullet. With the front drive band into the rifling and the back two in the case, alignment could not be better. When you used our bullets did you not notice that the front drive band is exactly where the ogive of a smooth or grooved bullet would be in contact with the rifling?

I completed three load developments for customers this week (340 Weatherby, 338 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag) and in all three cases we start experimenting with the front drive band into the rifling. Even the 7mm RM, which is a Winchester CF with its short magazine box, would easily fit the cartridge into the magazine box. On our site we recommend, on the load guidelines page, that load development be started with the first drive band touching the rifling. Of course this is not recommended with smooth or grooved bullets, because the pressure spikes up unpredictably. Bummer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I experimented extensively with grooved bullets during 1995 and 1996 by modifying our old HP range. I eventually gave up on developing grooved bullets when comparative tests at the Somchem Ballistic lab showed the advantage of drive bands.

I reckon both of us have a ways to go still about proving the advantage of a cylinder shape over a mushroom to those who have not experienced the effect first hand. Rome was not built in a day and, as more hunters see how well the concept works, it will be accepted more widely. I saw a saying recently that went: New ideas are initially rejected, then gradually accepted untill it is said that it has always been that way.

Take care.

Gerard,

Perhaps my wording was incorrect. When I loaded your 7mm bullets for use in my 7mm mag there would have been 2 "bands" pressed into the case and the first band was no where near the rifling. I checked the amount of bullet (across the top of those 2 bands) and found such a small amount pressing against the inside of the neck. I then "lightly" bumped the bullet, loaded in the case, and found it to move (off axis) very easily (the bullet was cocked to one side). I attribute this to only having 2 bands pressed in the case neck (very little bearing surface). This is what I meant by improper alignment.

What I did was place 3 loaded rounds in the magazine, fire one round and then remove the 3 rounds from the magazine and re-measure the OAL (having measured the OAL prior to loading them in the magazine). What I discovered was that the recoil pushed the bullets deeper into the case. I attributed this to having only 2 bands pressed into the case neck.

Not sure where your "pressure spikes" info came from. I have yet to see this using Groove Bullets <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"I reckon both of us have a ways to go still about proving the advantage of a cylinder shape over a mushroom to those who have not experienced the effect first hand. Rome was not built in a day and, as more hunters see how well the concept works, it will be accepted more widely. I saw a saying recently that went: New ideas are initially rejected, then gradually accepted untill it is said that it has always been that way."

You got that right. After looking inside a lot of animals killed with Groove Bullets I can "SEE" first hand the internal trauma done to the lungs and heart of animals (caused by the petals) and then the back of the bullet holds together and drives on through.

Just for the heck of it I ran an unscientific test just to see how FLAT I could make the back of the bullet. I took a 127gr EXP Groove Bullet, starting out at 3400 FPS, shot a 3" thick hardened D-2 steel plate at 100 yards. I lined up 3 one gallon tin cans (filled with water - caps secure) in front of the 3" thick steel plate. Shot through the 3 cans (blowing them to smithereens - new word there, lol) and found the base of the bullet on the ground, in front of the steel plate. The base grew by .152" where the petals came off. The balance of the bullet kept its shape except for the rifling groove of course. I did this because I was "told" that if that bullet hits the big bone on a large animal it would flaten out like a pancake. I figure steel is tougher then any bone. My unscientific test proved that the base of the bullet will NOT flaten out like a pancake. Now, if it was driven at 6000 FPS, maybe it would but I am not aware of a shoulder rifle that obtains that sort of velocity.

Last week a buddy killed a nice 12 point buck (whitetail) using his 270 and 113gr EXP Groove Bullets. It was a double lung shot, broadside, at 258 yards. On the entrance the bullet hit a rib and on exit it went between 2 ribs. The exit hole was about 1" in diameter. The lungs were "toast" (his word). At impact the deer went 50 yards and folded up. He was one happy camper.

You're right, somewhere in the future more and more hunters will realize that a "mushroom" is not needed (or even desired) to cleanly kill game animals.

Have a Good Holiday and save me some Zebra, Blue Wildebeest, Gemsbok and Bushbuck for when I come to South Africa in 2006. I will be sure to stop by when I get to Port Elizebeth.

Don <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Don - did you get to SA yet?