Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Are english style stocks better for ironsight guns with QD scope?

On a dangerous game gun is the english style stock prefered?

All things being equal a straight grip stock tend to shoot higher on snap shots (useful for quail/grouse guns).
If you are talking about double rifles, especially sidelock actions, it weakens the stock at a critical point. Never seen one on a bolt gun although a more open style pistol grip usually makes a rifle "faster on the draw". Open vs closed below:

I don't thimnk were talking light game gun stocks here. I really like the English stock on my H&H 375H&H, made 1913. Beautiful with open sights and weighs but 8 1/4 lbs. I'd rather shoot that than my Mod 70 Safari Express.

Not too sure with scope 'though, maybe just a little less drop at heel.

Sure like the lightweight stock ans design 'though.

Cheers, Chris

I like the English style stock for the following reasons:

1. the drop at the comb, and the heel, are condusive to iron sight shooting and work well with scopes, the opposite is not the case, as you cannot get down on the irons with a true American classic except with overy high ugly irons sights. A low combed American classic is a very nice rifle with both scope and irons, but too much forend and I personally don't care for the swivel in the wood.

2. A straight stock brings all the recoil straight back into the shoulder, too much drop lifts the barrel to high in recoil and sometime into the cheek, its distrubing. A proper English stock is between the two, it can take half the recoil up and half the recoil back such as a Jack Hough (American/English crossbreed)..It is a slightly modified English style stock and works well with both irons and scope.

3. I don't buy the wide butt as a deterent to recoil, tried it with both and a properly fitting stock works as well with a narrow butt plate as those thick wide combersome ones..Most Holland and Hollands and WRs have a narrow butt plate.

4. I like a trim, slim, sleek stock, not a cumbersome chunk of wood..I like the short forearm with the sling swivel on the barrel, as I seldom use a sling for carry and have not used a sling to shoot with for years, ever since I found out I didn't really need it. I carry a 7/8" sling in my pack.

5. As to the fabled 3 point hold on a rifle, I never bought of on that, you know the shoulder, elbow, and high cheek to press down on the comb that makes for accurate shooting and it apparantly works for some or at least they believe it does, so it does...It never made one bit of differnce to me..My therory is you put the bead or the crosshair on the target and SQUEEZE,off a controlled jerk and you will hit the target..I can lift my head to the scope on a low comb rifle and it makes no difference in my shooting, thus the English style fits me fine.

6. I believe there is more hype salesmanship involved in the American classic than anything else. The English only did two things right in the history of the nation, they built the best of rifles and they had Winston Churchill! As to the actual craftsmanship, that is another matter completely, that depends solely on the craftsman, be he English or American or German, even a martian.

7. I like the strong indestructable barrel band swivel and front sight, the quarter rib or island sight, leather covered recoil pads, control feed of the Mauser, the Mauser action, the drop box magazine on a big bore English gun, all of these are English inovations with a bit of Germany tossed in for good measure.

8. I think its a natural phenominum to progress from the American classic to the English stylel rifle with use and time as many Americans do so, and moreso today than any other time in our history..

I am not saying my ideas are for everyone, just saying the above is my reasoning on the subject. There are other options, the Weatherby type stock, the American classic, even the thumbhole if thats you choice..What you like as an individual is what you will chose and you will or may change your choice once or many times in the course of your lifetime.. but I will take you on in interesting conversation over any other design than the English stock and the Mauser action..:) I will also respect your choick whatever it is.

Ray, interesting, Never had a bolt gun with English grip, but certainly like(d) them on 12 bores, 86 Extra lights and Highwalls.
Most "American" stocks seem to be set up for deliberate shooting off a rest or bipod rather than something moving and reasonably closeup. Guess that's why I find 1930-50s 99s with their open grip handy offhand rifles.

What's the take on the 'English-style' stocks being offered by McM?

I am talking about english style rifle stocks not straight grip shotgun stocks.

EDMHUNTER,
An English grip on a bolt gun as I referred to is a pistol grip but it is lengthened and does not have such a enhanced bow to it, it is referred to as an "open grip" and it keeps the middle finger off the trigger guard with heavy recoiling rifles. It is also suggested to be better for offhand shooting and running shots

Ray is extremely correct on all counts.

American style stocks are completely useless for serious iron sight work.

The key is have someone layout the stock dimensions that completly understands stock fitting. A stock that works for a 5ft 8inch 220 pound gent will not be correct for a 6ft 4inch 200 pounder with a long neck and arms.

In my opinion, which is generally worthless, a nice African Rifle in one of the larger calibers needs drop, pitch, cast off, and proper dimensions among the various areas such as grip length, circumference, comb placement, and other critical dimensions. We are not shooting whitetails from a rest at 500 yards here, but we are carrying a rifle that must point where you are looking when quickly thrown up to the shoulder. No time here to wiggle into the rifle for a sight picture!!!

I like a large circumference grip, but I am changing my future stocks to a smaller circumference, helps to control the rifle.

In another post a gent was being hammered by his 375, bruising his cheek. Hmm. Comb is too high, stock likely has no cast off, and not enough drop. Maybe wrong pull length.

Let's see, if you throw in a few McDonalds coupons, a ten dollar bill, and some change, you may take my statements to McDonalds and buy a Happy Meal. The clerk will likely ask for more money.

I agree the modern American classic stock as promoted by O'connor, Carmichael, Amber is not as useful for all postion shooting as the English-German style.

I.M.H.O. the "modern American classic" stock is best for shooting off of a benchrest.

IMO, the most over looked aspect of a well designed hunting rifle, for shooting in the field or benchrest is "castoff" it sucks up recoil and makes a gun more pointable..I see too many custom stocks that are arrow straight, and that is a flawed gun IMO....I have not built a straight stock in years and don't intend to build another.

One can use a try gun, take all the measurements he can, and it certainly helps and is a good start, but the best way to finish your stock to a client is have him there for a fitting. It may make a difference, not always but it can....The salvation of all stock makers is the ability of the human body to adjust to about any gun, that is the stockmakers deep dark secret!

For comparison sake, how much difference is there between the drop at heel and drop at comb on an English stock vs and American classic? Or better yet, what is a typical measurement for DAH and DAC for an English stock, as measure from the centerline of the bore?

There is no correct answer, it depends on the physical statue of the shooter. As Ray says, a fitter that knows what he is doing is required. Most "Custom" American rifles, including the high priced ones, have the wrong stock configuration for iron sights. True, as Ray said, a person can "wiggle" into a poor fitting stock and hit the target, but this is not what shooting big bores is all about.

My dimensions, after many years of shooting ill fitting guns and trying to come up with measurements that work, are:

Drop at heel 1-3/4"
Drop at front of comb 3/4"
Length of pull 14-1/2"
Cast off 7/16"
Comb is straight (as it should be) and the buttpad is perpendicular to the comb line. This works for me! Might not work for you.

And be careful about cheek pieces and thick stocks: A ill designed cheekpiece will negate the cast off. Most big bore iron sighted rifles can benefit without a cheeckpiece. If you have to push your face into the stock to line up the sights, either the cheek piece is too thick, the stock is too thick, or you do not have enough cast off, or a combination of all three.

Keep in mind these numbers fit me, not everyone. I am 6-2", long arms, long neck, wide cheekbones, 230 pounds.

I got to these numbers by making pattern stocks, cutting and fitting, bondo, try and try again at the range, until the stock fits, the sights line up without thinking about them, and no wiggling into the stock. Throw the rifle up to the shoulder as if you were making a quick shot, but with the eyes closed. Then open the eyes. If the sights are not in alignment, without any moving or wiggling, then the stock does not fit.

A little thought about factor is the master eye. Some right hand shooters have a left master eye. If so, trying to shoot with the right eye makes sighting difficult as the eyes are fighting each other.

Now about recoil. My stocks have less felt recoil than the straight american style. Notice I said felt recoil. Physics and vectors may say other wise, the amount of recoil is still there, but how the stock reacts to my face and sholder results in less felt recoil to me. Others may think different, so be it.

It all boils down to having a stock that fits you properly, each person has different statue, different stock measurements that work, and a different mind set.

Stock fitting is like flinching. Some folks say they do not have a flinch. I have won a few bucks betting on a friend's flinch. Rule is I load the rifle when he is not looking. After letting him shoot a few live rounds I close the bolt on a empty chamber without him knowing it. The result is very funny! Some folks say a cast off stock is useless, it all depends on their mind set. If you already have your mind made up, nothing will change it!

Cast off really comes into play on a heavy recoiling rifle IMO and also on a shotgun..

A cheek Piece is nothing more than fine art, it has no practical advantage, and serves no purpose..

I personally can see no advantage to the wide thick butt on a big bore in that I have shot so many thin butted big bore English guns that had less felt recoil than the wide butted American classic..

I see no advantage to the long heavy forend on the American classic unless one shoots with the sling I suppose. I see the classic as having about 2 lbs. of extra wood on it..

The American classic IMO is a lot of sales hype, by gosh ideas, and a lot of theroritical promotions, as opposed to actual use, and has become quite acceptable by the written word..Don't get me wrong, some are nice rifles, I just believe the English had it perfected from the get go, but I was an American classic fan for many years, but with a lot of field experience I turned to the tried and true English/African sporter for my purposes....

Such things must be tried by each of us and our decisions should be determined by what works for each of us as individual, thats what makes good horses, good whiskey, aged wine, fast cars, fast wimmen and some even like dog fights! :)It's opinnion.