Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors How tight do you get the stock bolt on a Savage 99 ?

greetings

just got a Savage Model 99G

question- how tight should the buttstock bolt be on this gun ?

is there a torque spec, or procedure ?

what's the deal with the buttstocks cracking at the upper/lower tang areas, on the 99's ? I see and hear about a lot of that. This gun has small hairline cracks starting in both areas, but not bad, barely noticeable.

Is this a 99 weak point ?

Ans to your question in the link.


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/535525/Misc_Good_Info#Post535525

welcome to forum Captian crossman

yes I had read that link before, what puzzles and worries me is, having to scrape clearance on the gun around the upper tang, then it closing up over time, then having to do it again- which leads me to think, where is the wood going ? it must be compressing quite a bit elsewhere, and eventually it's going to crack elsewhere

I also have seen the guns crack at the lower tang, i.e. transferring all the force down to the lower tang, will only create a crack there.

having the upper tang gap close up, then create a crack, is a design flaw. The design and thickness of the wood should be such, that the stock should be drawn up tight, the gun fired indefinitely, and no cracks occur.

this tells me the wood in that area is too thin.

somewhere in the past I read, a guy bought a mint vintage Savage 99, and the first thing he did was remove the factory vintage stocks, and bought replacement stocks to put on it- to shoot it

that's the only way to go with these old guns, if one wants to shoot them alot. Having to scrape clearance to avoid cracks on a regular basis on a gun, is what I'd consider high maintenance. I have already done it on my Savage, even before I read the link, because it seemed like the only way to avoid it from creating a crack, or from making the hairline cracks into major defects.

thanks

Thinking you're missing the point or not understanding what happens with 90 year old wood that has spent a good many of those years drinking gun oil.

I have examined a number of the 99 stocks,
the wood below the upper tang is only 3/16 or so thick on 99's ,on 1899's it is a little thicker but in both casea could be thicker yet,

the stocks are also cut deeper than need be for bolt and lever circle,,from what i have seen the tool they used, cut further on left side of gun than the right , the L side being square cut ,the R being rounded,.Square cuts IMO are more suseptable to splitting, another factor is the stock bolt hole is not always dead centre ,therefore torking the stock ,on a percentage degree of degree of off center.

another major factor is wood condition,as Steelhead has said to much oil can soften wood,,but the right amount keeps it supple . the reverse of course is stocks that are to dry or finishes are uneven ,the stock can shrink and crack ,or become brittle, and chip off..

wood grain also has a great deal to do with all of these factors,never mind abuse from accidents ,negligence.
Norm

"yes I had read that link before, what puzzles and worries me is, having to scrape clearance on the gun around the upper tang, then it closing up over time, then having to do it again- which leads me to think, where is the wood going ? it must be compressing quite a bit elsewhere, and eventually it's going to crack elsewhere"


Rebuild a hairline (.010") gap between the top tang and butt stock by epoxy bedding the bottom tang. Hog out the oil soften wood where recoil forces are transferred to the butt stock with a Dremel tool. Only grind below the exposed surface so that the epoxy bedding does not show when the rifle is assembled. Use a better impact resistant epoxy such as GREY MarineTex, Acraglass mixed with powdered metal or another brand of similar quality. Done well, I doubt that it will be necessary to repeat the bedding for a good long time.

If there is a crack behind the bottom tang, the above epoxy repair is probably necessary both for structural as well as functional reasons. Accuracy will most likely be affected by a unstable fit between the receiver and butt stock.

actually the reverse was true on the gun I have, the stocks were quite dry, and brittle, and easy to crack

dry wood cracks really easy too, actually oiling the wood may soften it and resist cracking, and compress rather than crack

the wood treatment they use on decks is a perfect example

so the jury is still out on that one- something I find surprising is, there isn't a torque spec on the stock bolt- being a mechanic for 30 years, torque specs are critical for things like main and rod bearings, rocker arms, head bolts, etc. The spec is what tells the assembler it has to be this tight, beyond this your stripping threads or doing damage- with a stock design as fragile as the model 99 is, around the tangs, it's hard to believe that Savage doesn't have a torque spec on the through bolt. The best you can do with something like that, is torque it to factory specs- if it then cracks, that's a design quirk that one has to work with.

all indicators point towards the stocks on a 99 being over-tightened at some point in the life of the guns, leading to the stock cracking.

thanks for info, my thoughts exactly, use Acraglas on it and rebed it- but only as a last resort, because looking at the design, it's destined to setback and crack again as the gun is fired more and more

I'd rather pull the stocks, and bolt on finished aftermarket stocks for around $100 to shoot with- and not have to do the tricky stock work

this gun is quite nice, and the thought of grinding out the tang stock areas and filling them, would devalue it greatly- thus far I've only lightly scraped them tang bed areas, with a razor blade, to remove the excess stock finishing liquid that is dried there.

Unless I am missing in my guessing, the receiver has been refinished (Parkerized?) and D&T for scope. The butt stock appears to have a reinforcing pin through the stock cheeks. If so, I would not be so concerned about diminishing the value of the rifle by bedding the action. Nice looking shooter, never-the-less.

Torque spec would only be meaningful if the material is constant such as metal or structural plastic. Wood..... not so much.

the gun is a seldom fired 1923 vintage Savage 99G Deluxe- the receiver, buttplate, buttstock, fore end are all numbers matching. The barrel locks up tight like a vault and doesn't even budge a hair when assembled.

I don't believe the gun has been "parkerized" - but you can be the judge- it appears to be the original faded bluing. It's a 90% blue book condition gun, books at $750

grinding the tang area for clearance would not be a wise move on this gun-I simply would not do it, or allow it- not on a factory stock that old numbers matching- some cheap aftermarket furniture would be a better choice, then it could be fired a lot without further harm to the matching number stocks

I put a scope on it, here's some pics with different background

one more

[img]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5cexe9&s=6[/img]

a poor excuse for no torque spec at all- we still need to know the spec when new, so we have a benchmark to go from

bearings vary in hardness from street to racing in a car engine too

they get the same torque spec, regardless

if the factory spec causes the stock to crack, then at least you know it's the stock-

if we have the spec, then at least we know beyond that is too tight- with no spec, we're blind piggin' it on stock assembly, trial and error, which usually results in error

in this case, the stock was not "soft from oil"- it was actually dry from age and brittle

there are plasticizer compounds out now, that treat a stock to actually soften it up, so it compresses rather than cracks

there's a lot of misconceptions here

CaptainCrossman, what causes the split at the tang is poor fit between the recoil lug and the stock inletting. If the stock was poorly inletted to start with or the wood has shrunk away from the recoil lug then tightening the through bolt forces the tang into the tang inletting. The tang acts like a wedge and splits the stock. The action should bed, and be anchored at the recoil lug inletting and not at the tang inletting. The tang inletting is just not significant enough to withstand repeated recoil.

To prevent the tang split on my nicer, collectible grade 1899s I place a spacer made from a piece of thin sheet brass between the recoil lug and the stock in-letting. I drill a hole in the brass sheet for the through bolt to pass. The brass sheeting will conform to the curved recess of the recoil lug inletting. The spacer pushes the action out just far enough so that the tang does not touch the tang inletting. Use just enough brass to get a barely perceptible clearance between the tang and the tang inletting. On my every day using savages, I glass bed them.

When tightening the through bolt make sure it's snug but do not over tighten. I have never seen specs on torque for the through bolt and I'd be surprised if there ever were any. Just go with what seems about right.

I try to stay out of the "gun value" threads on this forum, but your gun is not in what is considered original condition. It does appear to have a pin in the stock cheeks and it has been drilled and tapped. It's a nice looking gun, don't get me wrong but it is not in collectible condition and I wouldn't worry about reducing it's value by doing a little stock bedding work.

now that's a much better idea, simply shim the action forward- cutting the stock out just seemed like going to hell to light a match to me- and risked ruining the stock wood. My hunch was right, overtightening is what causes the cracks, it keeps compressing the recoil lug area until the tangs hit the wood, acting like a wedge.

but I have to correct you on something- this is a numbers matching gun on both stocks, action, buttplate, etc. It's a bit more than just a shooter- and it does NOT have a cross bolt in the stock ! That is some sort of decal either put on at the factory, or by a previous owner- see pictures below- there is no "cross bolt" to hold the stock together !

Definitely wasn't put on at the factory.. and the d&t keeps it from being a "collector", but it does appear to be a very nice shooter. Not dissing it, just saying that there are still enough 95% plus rifles with no extra holes which fill the collector slots.

more- oddly enough there is nothing wrong with the stock, to create a need to cross bolt it- the black dots are some sort of decal....or ??

I'm open to suggestions as to "why" they did that

did Savage offer such a decal ?

http://i48.tinypic.com/2w356hy.jpg

it's a bit more than a shooter compared to all the ones I've seen so far in my life- many are beat to hell and hacked up a lot worse than this at gunshows and on GB- I've been shooting, reloading, hunting for 35 years now. this is the nicest Savage 99 I've laid my eyes on yet- and I've looked at many.

D/T and 2 black dots don't reduce the value that much- many that are not D/T with no black dots, have split stocks, no bluing, and no finish left on them too-

like Einstein said, it's all relative, judged on what else is available out there to compare to

the only one I've seen better locally, was a 375 Winchester caliber model 99 that last year at a little gun shop- I should have bought it- one year only offering.