Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Winchester Model 21 ?

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Discussing shotguns and the maker's relative pros and cons is very enjoyable.

At a gunshow one can listen for hours while the proponents of the Parkers, L C Smiths, Fox, Ithaca, Lefever, etc debate why one or the other is better.

It seems like the one shotgun that brings distasteful comments is the Winchester Model 21. In the last two days have heard it declared that no one can hit with one, the point of aim is way too low, the barrels change POI frequently, the barrels must be bent to make them hit, the two barrels never point in the same general direction with one barrel hitting way left and low and the other hitting way right and still further lower, etc. Have been told that the gun makers from Winchester have been interrogated under bright lights and admitted all these things and more.

Yet, the Model 21 enjoys popularity in the gun market and was made as long if not longer than the Parker, Smith, Fox, etc.


The question is...

Is the Winchester Model 21 just a wall hanger for bragging rights among the well-to-do,

Or can one actually take the Model 21 to the range, shoot respectable scores, and even hunt with it in the field ?

Thoughts ?

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Helllll yes. It is built like a tank and works just fine.

Have those experts splain how two barrels dovetailed together change POI but two soldered together don't.?

You can tell by how cheap they go for at big house auctions what crap they are (LOL)

Any of these "experts" who were BSing you own any 21s or did you have one they were trying to buy?

I will admit they don't have the grace of a Holland & Holland but they work.

Someone was really feeding you a line of bull. Maybe not the prettiest side by side ever made, but definitely the strongest. I've never heard of any problems with them not shooting straght.

And will continue to work when an H&H is dead if it doesn't have it annual tune up when used hard.

Some Winchester 21 info: The fact that they shot where you pointed them was never in question.

http://books.google.com/books?id=9S...AkQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I've owned a half dozen 21s and never found any of those problems except the stock fit on most was not for me.....only had one that fit really nice.

They are very strong yet simple.

A long time ago John Olin tried destructing testing a Wicnhester Model 21 against a Purdey Best Gun and a Spanish make (AYA, I think) and found that the AYA took more than 100,000 rounds after the Purdey went off the face and the Winchester 21 just wouldn;t break down. After he shot 250,000 rounds more than after the Purdey went kaput, he stopped testing because the Model 21 just wouldn't stop working. He published his findings in The American Rifleman and blew the myth of "Best" British quality away with evidence that was incontestable. Sadly, a craze for everything made elsewhere and with names that have more to do with "reputation" (I prefer to call it "marketing hype') continues to sell other brand names at joke prices to those who have more money in their bank accounts than information in their minds.

The Winchester 21 was (and is) a great gun - possibly the strongest SxS shotgun design ever. And the top of the line versions were embellished as well as any of the more worshipped marques made anywhere else. If someone has access to the American Rifleman archives or to the issue in question, they might want to re-read Olin's article. It is well worth enjoying and I have always wondered why Tony Galzan has not used to promote his guns. He is the one keeping the Model 21 flame burning, after all . . .

I have 2 12s, 1 16 & 2 20s. The 12s are heavy & clumsy the 16 is perfect for me, the 20's are a case set that are onlly used at sporting clays. I tried probably 50 before I found 1 that fits, the pre war 12 ga don't fit me at all.

There is no doubt that 21's are among the strongest doubles made, mostly because there's so much distance between the hinge and locking mechanism. (There isn't very much distance between the hinge and typical Purdey double-underbolt used in British doubles, the reason they tend to shoot loose over time--and were typically taken back to the maker for "maintenance" after a hard season on driven pheasants.)

But there are other side-by-side shotguns that stay tight basically forever without the 21's basic clunkiness, especially in 12-gauge. I know a lot of people revere everything Winchester, but I have never been able to fall in love with the 12-gauge 21 in any form, especially when there are European doubles (and some older American doubles) that are just as tough and more graceful, and don't require the "Winchester premium" to purchase.

"mostly because there's so much distance between the hinge and locking mechanism. (There isn't very much distance between the hinge and typical"

Hate to disagree, but that is not the reason. The reason is that the 21 was made of heat treated chrome moly steel, where the Purdeys, H & H, Parker, Ithica, Fox, L.C. Smith and most others were made from case hardened mild steel. The longer flats did make a difference, but it was primarily the steel that gave the added strength.

The stock of a 21 broke during these test, but I don't think Olin made mention of that.

This was good enough, most times, with normal field loads of about 10,000 PSI, and they would last a lifetime, or several lifetimes, but over time, they could shoot loose. The first sign of failure was usually the barrels seperating from the breech, creating a condition of excess head space.

The heat treated chrome moly steel was much stronger in this respect. The 21 withstood 2000 proof loads without any measurable change in dimensions. The proof loads, IIRC, were around 18,000 PSI. This would have been PSI as determined from Lead crusher gauges, or LUP, at the time the tests were made. I don't know how LUP would compare with actual PSI as measured by a Piezo gauge.

Olin proved it was the improved steel by making a few 21s from case hardened mild steel, and they did not fare much better than the other case hardened shotguns of the era.

I am writing this from memory, I have the results of the origininal tests somewhere, but the Purdey was second best with about 160 proof loads, probably due to the double underbolt type of locking system. The Darne did about the same. The Ithica was determined to be unsafe to fire after about 3 proof loads, and the Parkers and others didn't do much better, 10 to 20 proof loads.

If I had to choose one shotgun to own, and no more, it would be a Model 21 in 20 gage, SST, with 28" tubes; choking would be unimportant.

Mule Deer,

Would you give some examples of European doubles (and older American doubles) that are as strong and more graceful than the M21 but that don't carry the Winchester premium. I am always in the market for something like that. What should I be looking for?

Thanks, RS

DMB.. I agree if you are just hunting upland birds but like 26" because I use mine on quail & doves. If I lived in the midwest I'd want a 16ga. They are only a few oz. heavier and I am in love with mine although I only use mine when going to upscale places. For years my using shotguns were a Beretta 390 12ga and a m21 16 ga with 28" M& IC. I just bought a a400 to replace the 390 & now usually use a 20ga Citori because I can change tubes when dove hunting.

Ripsnort,

In general, German guns are very strong, because they usually use a "third fastener" such as a Greener crossbolt in addition to the typical underlugs used on British guns. In particular the Sauer and Merkel side-by-sides are good buys.

Parkers really aren't anything special, except for the fact that their fit and finish were better than many other guns (the reason there is also a "Parker premium"). The Foxes and Ithacas (especially the New Ithaca Double) were also quite strong. I shot a Fox Sterlingworth 12 for many years, made in 1911. It was still really tight after almost a century, and was just as tight when I sold it. Right now I have an Ithaca Flues model (the last before the NID) made around 1920 that is also very tight. It weighs 7 pounds, is choked perfectly for open-country shooting, and though it was obviously used a lot, is still very tight--and a lot of the case-color is still there. I picked it up at a gun show for $575.

The Ithacas weren't as nicely finished as Foxes or, especialy Parkers, but they were very good guns, Both Foxes and Ithacas used a rotary bolt as a fastener on a barrel extension, the reason for their strength. The rotary bolt is also self-adjusting to a a certain extent, the reason a Fox or Ithaca holds up

The big problem with some older American shotguns is the stock dimensions. Early in the 20th century many had buttstocks with a lot more drop than nowadays. But as we have seen on this thread, stock dimensions on the 21 can also be problematic.

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Would a 1950's vintage Winchester Model 21 have the stock problems that you're mentioning ?

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It depends on the individual gun and the individual. My M21 is a Trap grade model made for box-bird shooting. It has parallel dimensions and I shoot it well. I recently handled a M21 Custom grade 20ga. that fit me like a dream. Most 21s that I have handled (and that would be in the hundreds) have WAY too much drop for me. You got to kiss a lot of frogs........
RS

MD, Thanks for the info.

Exactly. Stock dimensions on shotguns are very individual. I am pretty lucky in the "average" stock dimensions fit me pretty well, but i still have to modify them now and then. Sometimes, too, as our body and face changes throughout life, the dimensions that fit us perfectly when we were 25 don't work so well when we're 50.

Agree w/ JB on the M21 assessment. Lots of steel. Hard to find a 12 gauge less than 8#, or a 16 less than 7. Having said that, the 16s especially have a nice feel, despite their weight. The 20s also seem a bit heavy for gauge. They are good guns, just not my cup of tea, especially with the prices they are fetching these days.

For the money a new one, the best ever produced BTW, including those at Winchester in the heyday, I'd sooner have a similarly priced product of Italy.

The Winchesters have a cult following that is raising the prices beyond the inherent value of the guns, IMO. Same has occurred with the Model 70s and most of its lever guns.

I had a Birmingham Brit 12 SXS and one Mdl 21 years ago in 12ga. The Brit gun was too fragile, and the Mdl 21 was like toting a tank around the field.

I much prefer my German doubles. They are strong and a great middle ground...not too heavy, but not overly light. The workmanship is there, also. Don't count out French and Belgian guns, either.

What's the going rate for a M21? I think a 12 or 16ga M/IC in Vg is about $3,500 and a 20 with the same set up is about $4,000.