Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Empire rifles...worth the $$$?

Buy a pre 64 Winchester 70,save your money and it will be worth more later,after you go into the old folks home....it might just pay for your stay..with TV and free HBO!

Utahlefty:

I want it built in old and boring .308. My goal is to build a short, light, general-purpose "practical" rifle. I've had pre-64s and post-64s, but I'd something special, built with all the features I want. Here are the features I want:

1)controlled round feed short action, preferably in stainless steel with a 18"-
20" light contour barrel(.308) Action choices: Winchester 70 CRF SA, Dakota, or Empire Arms
2)NECG Masterpiece banded front sight and Masterpiece island rear sight
3)bed in McMillan stock and install flushcups sling swivels, a 3rd swivel spot for a "Ching Sling"
4)Burris xtreme 2-piece picatinny bases or Nightforce 2-piece steel picatinny bases(the Empire rifle has this built in)
5)Nightforce 2.5-10X32 compact scope(these are awesome scopes!) in Warne quick. detachable rings
6)A Trijicon H-1 red dot in QD mount for mounting on front/bridge rail section(for Hogs in the thickets or social encounters)
7)short lenght of Picatinny rail on the left side of the forend for mounting a Surefire weaponlight(for shooting hogs at night or social encounters)

The idea being a multipurpose, super handy, short and light arm that can be used for hunting or in a pinch, a defensive tool. The scopes can be removed and reinstalled without loosing zero(I've already T&Eed this system and it works). It's going to end up similar to Jim Brockmans "Premier Practical rifle", but better, and without the 4 year wait.

As a side note, what's the concensus on stainless vs. Carbon steel and harsh conditions/hard use?

Thanks for everyone's input thus far, I appreciate it.

As a relatively new Empire Rifles owner, let me chime in.

First of all, I don't think Empire Rifles are necessarily losing re-sale value...I just think there's a bunch of people liquidating their firearms still, and very few people ready/willing/able to comfortably sink a bunch of cash into what is, let's face it, a luxury item. I'm a Winchester collector and I can tell you factually that I can buy collector-quality lever actions for less money today than I could two years ago, but I don't think that means Winchesters are losing their value.

Best I can tell, the people with the biggest complaints about Empire Rifles are those who have been waiting for a long time to get one. And there seems to be a few of them around. From dealing with George Sandmann my opinion is that he's trying to do too much with too little, and the end result is quite often delays in getting what you're after.

My Empire was a consignment gun that I bought for right at 55 or 60% of what it should have cost. Sadly the original buyer needed cash before Christmas, and after several years of admiring Empire 98's I pounced on the opportunity. I don't have a fancy one in an exotic caliber- it's blackened stainless in a Kevlar stock, chambered for .30-'06- but it's a takedown and the only tough-as-nails controlled-round-feed takedown I'm aware of since the Winchester Custom Shop stopped selling the M70 TD (manufactured by HS Precision and only available in a couple of calibers). My investment is growing, though, as I've already commissioned another barrel assembly in 9.3x62; once I have that assembly I could theoretically sell every other hunting rifle I own and never need more than the .30-'06/9.3x62 combination.

I read the threads from the guy who had this recent fight with George, and I feel for him. But not much, because even with a $10k controlled-round-feed rifle there's room for operator error. And on a hunting trip of any kind there's no excuse for not checking things out beforehand. There may very well be defects with the rifle, but I'll bet most of his ire is from the long wait to get the gun in the first place...his other actions seem to indicate a lack of patience.

Yesterday I had two rounds through my Empire that didn't detonate- light primer strikes on some 200-grain handloads developed for another .30-'06 (I've got NM mule deer and MN white tail hunts this year...I guarantee I'll get way more than 200 rounds though this rifle before those hunts). I emailed George last night and told him I'd like them to look everything over when the action is up there to have the 9.3x62 assembly headspaced. George emailed back late last night, asked for a daytime phone number, and called me this morning wanting to know all of the details and when he could get the rifle in his shop. Pretty decent service considering that I'm a second-hand buyer.

The rifle functioned flawlessly with factory Federal 180-grain ammo and my 220-grain handloads. And last night was the first time I'd disassembled the bolt and wiped everything down. I truly believe the problem was with the loads and not the rifle, but I was pleased at the response I got.

The M70 is a great rifle. The Empire 98S is well beyond it as far as care of manufacture and features go, but in reality they're neat "little" things (stupid easy bolt disassembly, the best integral square bridge bases I've ever seen, cast-off built into the stock, etc.) coupled with great, guaranteed accuracy and the ability to have one built just exactly like you want it. Compared to an off-the-shelf M70 you probably won't kill 500% more animals or shoot groups 500% smaller. But if you have the opportunity to get one at a price that feels right, it's a great rifle.

I'm not going to get in the middle of this as I have never even seen an Empire rifle, but if I were going to hunt stuff that could hurt me, I'd be damn sure my equipment was in top shape and worked as expected before I put myself in harm's way.
I do have a lot of problems with companies --not just smiths-- that cannot give you a reasonable estimate on delivery.

For that sort of money, I'd sure think hard about putting my money into something from the House of Biesen. Talk to Roger, he builds them complete, can get you fixed up w/ a pre-64 Model 70 or a nice Mauser. And they really shoot. True that you'll have to wait while he builds one (unless you buy from the few he has for stock), but you'll really have something when you're done.

www.biesen.com

I live near Empire (or at least compared to most of you) and have been there. At some point, especially over on AR lots of these Mauser discussions are reduced to picking fly poop out of pepper. Empire initially consulted with the late Fred Wells on the 98S design. I imagine you'd have as much into having a m70 re-worked by someone like Mark Penrod or other top flights smiths as you would on the 98S. I call it an even match.

I will say I did not fire one of the rifles so cannot report on that. I can also say I have my CZ in the hands of Dennis Olson FWIW and he is now re-shaping the factory stock as it appears to have some pretty good wood underneath the awful factory goop.

At the end of the day, I'd consider Empire but I would certainly demand results in terms of the rifle's funtion.

AWWWW Grits!

I took a worn out Winchester M94 to a couple of local smiths for refinishing, the only one that would take the job had it sent out to Fords in Florida. The smith did tell me it would take upwards of 6 months to get it back from Fords. I was patient and waited but after 6 months I called the smith. He said Fords didn't return his call, so I called Fords. They were very pleasant and said there were 4 levers on the racks being worked on at the time. Two months later and still no rifle. I called Fords back and they were confused. All of the rifles that came in on that order was refinished and sent back. It seems my smith held on the rifle longer then he had told me. Fords put a "high quality" rush on my rifle. I gave it to the smith in February, Fords got it in May, and I got it back in October of '08. They did an outstanding job which made the wait worth while.

Now I currently have an M38 over at Shaw having a barrel fitted and bolt turned. They also got the rifle in February (but 2010) and I was told it should be back around September / October time frame.

I don't own or probably ever own an Empire but that's because of my income ;-) BUT if I were to hit the Powerball (yeah right), I'd probably stay in my own backyard and go with the following companies for the major parts:

Granite Mountain action & bottom metal
Timney trigger
Schneider Rifle Barrel
McMillan stock

HaYen

I just went over to the Empire Website and I'm sorry I just don't see how a gun that costs $8k - $10k is a hunting tool.

I'm sure there are some folks that have that kind of money but most folks with that kind of money have brains to boot.

I just don't see why someone would buy one of those rifle when you could get a nicer unit for a quarter of the price.

Honestly it's kind of disturbing.

Tom

I think he's referring to a poster on Accurate Reloading who uses the "handle" Fish 3014. Hid name is Don, and a great guy for sure.

They are not worth it to me, but i am sure they are to some guys.
Id rather work over a nice 1909 Argentine for a fraction of the cost.

Yep, good advice. I got burned by anotherfriggin crook named Greg Hein (Waffenfabrik Hein) a couple of years ago. I'm out 7 grand and never even saw the rifle. Obtained a judgment even a civil arrest warrant but the cops don't bother with those and nothing. I love Custom Rifles, but buyer beware. If I find one already built and it works I'll take it but as far as having another built, fugget about it. jorge

jorge that really sucks!

Yep. If I had the time, I'd fly out to WA state and deak with it, I'm also thinking about taking out a full page add in the local paper exposing this friggin crook. At least I'm "cured" of the custom rifle issue. jorge

I,too,have had one or two bad experiences,which is why I have generally refrained from having customs built,after having built several.And when I have had them done I have circled long and hard before proceeding.

I am particularly suspicious of shops that outsource the bulk of the work.

I'm sure you could make an argument that this leads to problems. You could also probably argue that it's no different than the general contractor who builds your house, and gets the most skilled/qualified people to contribute their expertise to the project.

I used to have a Winchester M70 Custom African Express. I think it is hands-down the finest bolt action rifle ever to wear the Winchester name. Winchester had only a very small part in building it though- they took the order, provided the action, and blued the gun. The barrel supplier (Krieger, in the case of my rifle) trued the action, fitted the barrel, and did the chambering & headspace. The barreled action was then sent to one of two custom makers to have the gorgeous stock with the Oberndorf "belly" surrounding the dropped magazine made, finished, bedded, and checkered. New England Custom Guns installed the sights and returned the rifle to Winchester for finishing & shipping.

The Custom African Express is a top-quality rifle, and to me the build process isn't different than what Empire is doing. (as a sidebar- even back in Winchester's heyday of building special-order rifles circa 1890 to 1910 or so, the vast majority of people who worked on them were outside contractors, overseen by Winchester's foremen)

Empire 98's are friggin' expensive...I really can't justify the price and without the opportunity to pick one up for about half of retail there's probably no way that I would own one. Avoiding them because of the cost is one thing, but I don't think their build process necessarily causes problems.

Lots of money that the vast majority couldn't ever think of spending on a rifle.

But break the figures down a little bit.

Just a shot in the dark, but say the average salary here is

40,000 a year, must of us do a little saving/trading for that 1,000.00 rifle which equals about .025 of our gross income

The next guy that makes 5 million a year, that 10,000 dollar rifle is only .002 percent of his gross income. If he were looking at something equivalent to what we would consider within our reach for a hunting rifle (.025) he'd be looking at a 125,000 rifle.

Long story longer, 10 grand is a drop in the bucket for lots of people in this day and age where the rich are getting a whole lot richer and the rest of us are essentially going backwards when you take inflation into account.

Can't speak to Empire arms but have a fair amount of experience buying and dealing with custom rifles.

Basically there seems to be two categories: The Smiths that build benchrest and target type rifles and the "Artisan" type that build high dollar speciality rifles usually wood stocked rifles that seem command a much higher price that would seem to represent the sum of thier components or even the amount of work to put them together.

Of the two types I have observed almost no issues with the BR and long range type smiths.

The hunting or artisan type smiths to me have almost always had issues whether it be long delays or perhaps never getting the rifle at all, and or substandard work on one part of the rifle. It may be stocked perfectly with meticulous bedding and finishing, but not feed worth a damn or shoot poorly. Get a rifle with these problems and there almost always be delays and frustration getting it sorted out. Many of these guys may be professional stock builders and farm the metal work out to another smith. That may or may not be the root of the problem.

I have seen some "boutique" rifles from high visibility companies that just had awfull work with regards to barreling, feeding,and chambering.

Bottom line though is you really have to do some homework, and check refrences before plunking any hard end $$ to any smith.

Lefty C

STAY AWAY FROM EMPIRE! A friend is still waiting (now years) for a relatively simple job. After dozens of emails and threats of lawsuits, he still doesn't have his rifle. Empire is running a Ponzi scheme, meaning that he is using the money from new orders to run keep running ads but only delivering sporadically. He still owes suppliers for contract work done years ago. If the economy heads south again, Empire will be down the tube!

Empire is only a contractor anyway. If you want to order custom, find a real gunmaker who actually has some skin in the game. Reto Buehler, for example, is completing a gun for my same friend and the whole deal is being concluded in a year, start to finish. References are too easy to come by these days and always a good idea.

Kifaru: that is exactly the same thing Hein did with me and a bunch of others he fleeced. jorge