Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles How would you measure this group?

Okay, I went out today to do my pre-pillar bedding group with my Savage 110. (By the way, this rifle never produced any of those consistent half-inch groups at 100 yards that I keep hearing other Savage owners talk about.) There was a good 10 to 20 mile crosswind blowing (go figure, it was dead calm at my house, and then I get to the range and it's windy; I simply don't get that many opportunities to go to be able to put it off again). I got about a 2-inch vertical variation on five shots. The lateral variation was about 3.25 inch. Usually, this rifle varies significantly more vertically than laterally. I'm betting the gusting wind probably pushed a 2-inch group into a 3.25-inch group. I don't even know if I'm measuring the group exactly right. Anybody have any thoughts on this? I was going to replace the creepy Savage trigger too, but I think I'll do the bedding first to see how much improvement I get before I decide to sink any more dough in this rifle. (I have already adjusted this trigger down to about 4 pounds, which is about at light as you can go on the Savage trigger.) This is a 7 mm. Remington Mag. I was shooting Federal Premium 150 Gr. Boat tails. Any thoughts and input appreciated. Thanks, Rex

Look at the 2 holes that are the farthest apart. Measure from the outside edge of the first to the inside edge of the other and you'll get center to center distance.<P>------------------<BR>Andr�<p>[This message has been edited by Andre (edited March 09, 2001).]

Rex,<P>Andre is correct about measuring group sizes. I do have a couple of questions. <P>-What kind of groups do you normally shoot with accurate rifles?<P>-What type of rests do you use?<P>-What other types of ammo have you tried in this rifle?<P>Usually, a good bedding job makes a big difference. You can do it yourself with a kit from Brownell's for $15-$25. <P>If everything else is right, (scope tight, good shooting technique), vertical dispersion could be a sign that the load isn't quite right for that rifle. Your horizontal dispersion could be a from the wind, or just another sign that the rifle's load isn't right. <P>Blaine

I don't recall anyone getting consistant .5in groups with Savage 110 7mmRemMags; but who cares. You might be shooting to fast. While bedding the gun, free float the barrel. Our (my father's and I have visitation rights) Savage 110 7mmRemMag has a sporter weight barrel which is easy for a 7mag to heat up.<P>BTW, when/if you free float the barrel double maybe even triple the dollar bill/business card you use. AND reseal the stock. No sense in leaving anything to chance.

BornAK, I agree with Blaine on this one regarding his statement about the load. My Savage 110DL (.270 win) does not like Winchester (super X 3+ inches - 5 shots) or the standard Remington factory ammo (2.5 inches - 5 shots). When I began trying different brands of ammo I started to gain hope in the rifles potential for accuracy. Fed Premium consistantly put 5 shots under 1 inch @ 100 yds. A few groups were at .5. Hornady custom also put 5 shots under an inch as well. All this of course when I did my part. I decided to use the Hornady as it was about half the price of Fed Premium. I sanded the bed slightly by hand in a few places in order to free float it. Other than that it was completley stock for the first nine years that I had it. Last year I had the trigger adjusted to around 4#. Yes, that made an improvement. Not trying to offend, but check yourself to see if you are flinching at all. Even if you move, or flex slightly in anticipation of recoil, this will affect your groups. Atleast I know what my rifle is capable of, so if my groups are off I start checking "myself" first to see what I am doing that may be affecting my shooting. Sorry this is so long. Try different brands of ammo is my recomendation. Good shooting. Mark.

Group size should be measured center to center. Outside to outside minus caliber (.284) or outside to inside on the two that are the farthest apart. All will end up with the same #. A 4lb trigger is a little heavy for shooting off bags. I too am curious about your rest, your bench, your scope and your shooting technique. It is hard to tell what a rifle is capable of in a heavy crosswind. If you are testing loads or something you did to the gun, it (to me at least) seems like a waste of time. Once you know what your rifle does, then you can shoot in the wind for practice. I save targets when I think I have settled on a load. I detail the load, the wind direction and velocity, time of day or what the sun was doing, and the temperature. I also note if I think I touched one off at the wrong time like an unexpected gust or bad sight picture. With a little shooting you can look at the targets and start developing some patterns and capabilities of your rifle.

Lots of replies (thanks), and I'll try to hit all the points. My scope is tight. I have a Benchmark shooting rest that I use on the bench (cradles the rifle and provides a bit of recoil abatement) with adjustments for elevation and angle (tipping). It has a velcro-attached sandbag at the front, but that bag's too hard for a big rifle (IMHO), and I always put a big normal sandbag up on the front rest at the range. (I think the bag that came with the rifle is fine for .22 shooting, however.) I like this setup better than the carpeted blocks and sandbags that we have at my local shooting range, as it's easier to shoot multiple shots. <P>As far as the flinching issue goes, I've done hundreds of shots with snapcaps to make sure that my sight picture is steady through the "breaking" of the trigger. I honestly don't think flinching is a problem here. I have it down to where (even with the creepy Savage trigger) the actual gun going off is taking me by surprise. Seems right there. How do I shoot accurate rifles? Accurately. I get nice, round, tight groups. (Glad to know I'm measuring my groups right.) I have already corrected some binding on the forestock, and the barrel is free-floated. (Of course, I resealed after the sanding.) When I shoot these groups, I let the barrel cool completely to the touch between each shot. It took over an hour on a 50 degree, windy day to shoot the five shots. Ammunition selection: I have shot the cheap Remington Corelokt (spelling?) 150 grain (pretty marginal), Federal Classic 150 grain Hi-Shock soft points (better), Federal Premium 150 grain boattails (first time yesterday--I reported this group--probably because of the wind pretty comparable to the cheaper 150 grain Classics), Federal Premium 140 grain Nosler Partition (got about the best results with these--but there's no comparable cheaper 140 grain factory load for offhand practice and so forth--I find that POI on this rifle changes quite a bit depending on bullet weight.) <P>I agree that shooting on such a windy day is pretty silly, but I live in a very windy area (Delta area of the San Francisco Bay Area). I spend 40 hours a week working and another 3 hours a day (five days a week) getting back and forth to the job. That makes it a little tough to coordinate the trip to the range with the right wind conditions. Part of my issue here was to try to ascertain if the widening of the group in this kind of wind was typical. Of course, if the wind were absolutely consistent, the groups would tend to just move consistently to the side. Over a 100 yard range, however, my bet is that some gusting would likely widen the group. Regarding my cavalier remark about Savage shooters reporting half-inch groups--that was unkind and inappropriate. I could have said the same about Remington shooters or any other brand association. Some people will report the truth about the groups they shoot, some will embellish, and some will definitely get impressive groups if they are competent and are shooting accurate rifles. There's definitely a human factor, and I don't represent myself as the sharpest shooter that ever lived. But when I shoot from a rest, I'm generally quite consistent. <P>On reflection, I think I have about a 2-inch rifle right now. I'm going to pillar bed it, and if I shrink those groups down enough to be satisfied, I'll buy a $90 trigger and put it in. If not, I'll get a different rifle. Thanks, Rex

my two cents...<P>try a heavier bullet in a couple of different brands, I noticed you went lighter, try heavier.

Blammer: Thanks for the input. Actually, I started with the 140--might have got the best results there. Then I went to the 150. If I go to 180, the heaviest factory load with a 7 mm Mag, I'm giving up a lot of the trajectory advantage that had me buy this caliber in the first place. And my prime target would be a California Blacktail deer. 180 grains seems more appropriate for an elk, IMHO. Of course, if you're shooting 3-inch groups at 100, you're not going to do too good with a 300 yard shot anyway. But that might be a good last resort. I'm going to try the bedding to see if I can get closer to an inch at 100. If that works, I'll try a better trigger. I'll work the heavier loads into the equation as a possible to try too. Thanks for the input. Rex

It's the stock. Or possibly the scope,bases/rings. Check that everything is tight. Try a scope,of known merit. Ammo can make a difference,but what you are describing,is mechanical...........

Big Stick: We have discussed the bedding issue before. Remember I'm the guy that had the idea about pouring the pillars with glassbed? That was just before the great exodus from shooters. I've changed scopes, and the mounts seem very solid (The guy at my gun shop told me they were very good--and I was trying to buy another set from him.) Well, I did my pre-bedding group (spoiled as it may have been by the wind). My conclusion is that the best I can do today is 2 inches. We'll see how it goes after the bedding. Thanks, Rex

Born AK, I know what you mean about wind. My home range is at the beginning of the Altamont Hills, where all the wind farms are! You have been given a lot of good advice covering things to check. A quick, cheap and reversible bedding experiment would be to shim up the action in two places as widely separated as possible and shoot a few groups. If there is a dramatic improvement the rifle is telling you it needs the barrel floated. Good luck, curmudgeon

I tried to post this last night,but it wouldn't "take".........<P>Ray,my point was despite the temptation, DON'T overlook the obvious. Determine all is mechanically sound,before you look further. Of course,that includes a properly cleaned bore. Also just for giggles,make sure the barrel nut is snug. Don't chuck it up in a vice and take a pipe wrench to it,but if it moves via finger pressure,address it.<BR> <BR> I am not a Savage LOVER,though I am a Savage user. In a nutshell,they shoot and amazingly well,with minimal fuss. I have a hard time believing your troubles are ammo oriented. Not implying that I distrust your judgement,but it is often the subtle things,that make a huge difference.<BR> <BR> Two things are immediate indicators,both geared towards bedding. First,apply several folded layers of tinfoil,beneath the forend tip. Just enough,to apply an upward pressure. From there,shoot at 100yds,paying attention to front rest location. Keep it halfway towards the trigger,just as a yardstick of measure. Then punch paper.<BR> <BR> If despite your best efforts and resources(short of a new scope),it still is unsatisfying,try this. Pop it out of the stock and float the barrel channel. From lug forward. Not a little,but a LOT. This to ward off excessive forend pressure,from your yet unbedded stock. I know you floated the barrel,but perhaps it is still making contact?<BR> <BR> I ASSURE you,it is not ammo. The stock is looser than most,or flexing upwards,causing unwanted contact. Pop it out,look for blueing wear(shiny spots)and correct it. Don't worry,once you correct the problem,you'll be rewarded.......

Taking that long to shoot a group gives the benchresters and target nuts the willies. Weather condition and lighting do stuff in minutes much less lots of minutes. I don't think anyone mentioned parallex. I've seen that account for 1 inch.

Big Stick: As always, thanks for your good counsel. You have restored some of my optimism. I actually took the cheap package Simmons off and replaced it with a Cabela's Pine Ridge (a moderately priced scope, but a big step up from the el cheapo Simmons that was on it). I know the mounts are tight, but before I do anything else, I'll also recheck my vertical alignment on the crosshairs--I did it by my best instincts when I put it on last fall, but I now have a little leveling tool from Brownell's that I used when I scoped a new .22. Makes it easier to make sure the alignment is right. I'll try the more extensive floating as well. I do plan to bed this sucker, though. <P>BThorpe3, you make excellent points, about taking so long to shoot the group--especially on a windy day. My point was to shoot with an absolutely cool barrel. I probably went off the deep end on that point. The 7 mms do heat up a lot though. The parallax point is also intriguing. How would that problem be eliminated? Thanks, Rex

Expecting a Savage 110 to shoot half inch groups is not realistic. I would be ecstatic over a one inch group with this rifle (or a remington 700 for that matter). remember that a 7mm mag is a big game gun and not a varminter. Expecting this rifle to shoot that well will only lead to dissapointment. Stop reading gun mags lol<P> hambone

I'm not expecting half inch groups, Hambone. We've had a number of discussions from time to time about the way some guys manage to "shrink up" those groups on the way to their computers to post their latest results. Though I know some of the guys here-abouts do shoot a pretty fair group. Actually, from what I hear, the Savages and Remingtons you mentioned shoot pretty reasonably well. Anyway, glad you got a laugh out of this. Anything to make a feller feel good (within reason, of course!).

I got a nasty old round top Ruger,in 7mmMag,it will shoot X's in the .3's until your tired of doing it. Several 700's as well,that will shatter the half inch mark,with both 120's and 140's. It is a cartridge that is capable,of SUPERB accuracy levels. Strive for just "good enough",you'll be shorting yourself,on a routine basis. Accuracy is the Savage rifle's longsuit,.5MOA should be a realistic yardstick. That is what I'd strive for(and GET).........<p>[This message has been edited by Big Stick (edited March 12, 2001).]

I agree with Stick. I have had several out-of-the-box 700s in big game chamberings produce under 1/2 inch 3-shot groups. It all has to do with proper loading and shooting techniques.<P>Blaine

Big Stick and AFP: May I (and my rifle) live up to your results! I'll let you know how it comes out. Thanks, Rex