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Joined: Apr 2010
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 66 |
I just signed up for this website simply because of this topic. Has any of you ever heard the phrase dont bet against the kid who only has one gun and shoots it at everything? How about the statement of I use a bigger caliber because you may not have a perfect shot? My personal favorite is we owe it to the animal... My belief is caliber will not make up for a marginal shot. My personal belief is that kid with a 243 who shoots it at everything will know where that bullet is goin and how to put it in the right spot every shot. And yes I do believe we owe it to the animal to make clean ethical killing shots. Whats clean and ethical about shootin a bull in the ass while hes running just because you have an ultra mag. A bullet in the heart is a bullet in the heart. Hit it hard and hit it clean and it will hit the ground. And one more thing Id rather take a kid shooting dime sized groups with a 243 on a bull hunt than I would some over compensating dipstick with a huge magnum that cant hit the side of the barn from the inside because hes afraid of his rifle. And you would be suprised at how many grown men I have seen flinch at recoil of a magnum and completely miss the animal they were shooting at. Shoot what you shoot good, put the bullet where it belongs and enoy those backstraps.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,245 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,245 Likes: 2 |
These topics never die.
A skilled enough hunter could kill a bull with a rock I suppose, while an unskilled hunter struggles with a .338 Lapua.
That said, the biggest bull I've ever seen killed in the wild was killed in Wyoming with a 6mm Remington.
Proud NRA Life Member
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,324 Likes: 9 |
A skilled enough hunter could kill a bull with a rock I suppose, while an unskilled hunter struggles with a .338 Lapua.
A sharp rock while wearing a leather jockstrap mind you........  Gotta' have the right equipment........ Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,328 Likes: 9
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,328 Likes: 9 |
FWIW I have seen more problems recovering whitetails that were shot with a .243 than any other caliber. Seen a lot revovered too. It seems like the .243 just has trouble sometimes.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
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I just signed up for this website simply because of this topic. Has any of you ever heard the phrase dont bet against the kid who only has one gun and shoots it at everything? How about the statement of I use a bigger caliber because you may not have a perfect shot? My personal favorite is we owe it to the animal... My belief is caliber will not make up for a marginal shot. My personal belief is that kid with a 243 who shoots it at everything will know where that bullet is goin and how to put it in the right spot every shot. And yes I do believe we owe it to the animal to make clean ethical killing shots. Whats clean and ethical about shootin a bull in the ass while hes running just because you have an ultra mag. A bullet in the heart is a bullet in the heart. Hit it hard and hit it clean and it will hit the ground. And one more thing Id rather take a kid shooting dime sized groups with a 243 on a bull hunt than I would some over compensating dipstick with a huge magnum that cant hit the side of the barn from the inside because hes afraid of his rifle. And you would be suprised at how many grown men I have seen flinch at recoil of a magnum and completely miss the animal they were shooting at. Shoot what you shoot good, put the bullet where it belongs and enoy those backstraps. Having seen more elk wounded and lost after being shot with a .243 than any other single and perhaps all other cartridges combined, I�ve come to the conclusion that elk with a .243 is a job for well-disciplined experts � not novices. The problem with your argument is that things can and do go wrong. My concern, and the reason I prefer and use heavier, well constructed bullets for elk is my concern about what happens when they do. Nowhere in any of my writings will you find where I advocate someone shooting a rifle they can�t handle, magnum or not, nor do I recollect anyone else making such a recommendation. That said, most of us have seen folks that can�t hit anything with non-magnums and others who shoot the magnums quite well. By the way, a heavy and well constructed bullet CAN sometimes make up for a marginal shot where a lighter bullet might fail � it depends on the individual circumstances. I'll take that extra insurance.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,324 Likes: 9
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,324 Likes: 9 |
By the way, a heavy and well constructed bullet CAN sometimes make up for a marginal shot where a lighter bullet might fail � it depends on the individual circumstances. I'll take that extra insurance.
I'm wondering what kind of circumstances would that happen? Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5
New Member
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New Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5 |
this winter i have shoot 3 cervus elaphus in France with my Thompson TCR in 243win
97m, 80gr SS Pistol
188m, 95gr B-Tip
124m, 75gr Barnes X
and 4 Bambies at 23m, 190m, 270m and 330m
i want to purchase 80gr TTSX but in France it is not easy to find
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
By the way, a heavy and well constructed bullet CAN sometimes make up for a marginal shot where a lighter bullet might fail � it depends on the individual circumstances. I'll take that extra insurance.
I'm wondering what kind of circumstances would that happen? Casey A fair enough question. In 2007 I took a quartering away shot at a mulie buck. The range was about 150 yards and I was shooting a 7mm RM with 140g North Fork bullets. Just as the trigger broke the buck stepped forward and turned away. As a result the bullet hit low in the right ham. It was recovered from up against the sternum. I have seen .243�s fail to provide anywhere near that amount of penetration. The biggest bull I�ve ever seen on the hoof while hunting had been shot with a .243 in the right ham by a youngster with a .243 Win. I watched with the boy�s father as the bull easily outdistanced the young hunter who was by then well out of range. My hunting buddy and I didn�t stay to watch the scene play out but given the mobility of the elk and the approaching darkness I doubt the bull was recovered. A heavier bullet might very well have yielded different results, depending on the angle of the shot. I fully admit that I occasionally hunt elk with my .257 Roberts in spite of its light bullets. (My choice for that is a 120g A-Frame running 2947fps at the muzzle.) When I do so, however, it is after I�ve taken my first elk and am focused primarily on deer but still have an elk tag in my pocket. (On a side note, I am hardly a novice with the .257 Roberts, either.) When going after the first elk of the season I carry my 7mm RM or a .308 Win or larger. My personal opinion is that, when elk are involved, a 6x55, .260 Rem, 7mm-08 or 7x57 loaded with 130g bullets or heavier are better choices for youth/novice guns than a .243 Win. Just my opinion, though.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 66
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 66 |
coyote hunter, I am not disagreeing with you about a 243 not being for novices and what I wrote says dime sized groups with the 243. Shooting like that doesnt come from a rookie. Im also not trying to say that all guys shooting ultra mags are scared of their guns. I know alot of guys myself included who love their magnum rifles. All I am trying to say is a bullet in the right spot is gonna kill. I watched my buddy try a severely quartering away shot on a raghorn in Oregon 2 years ago with a 300 win mag and 180 partitions that didnt kill it. Went through a ham hit bone and angled out through the guts. I put the bull down and covered it with my tag 3 miles later with a 25 caliber rifle. Difference being he thought he could risk a marginal angle because of size of the bullet, and I worked my ass off to get the broadside shot I wanted. Again not saying everyone who carries a big rifle takes shots like that. To me killing elk at 100 yards is no different than killing them at 500. I want the perfect shot and wont take one unless it is perfect. If that means I miss out this year then I guess I miss out. With the shots I take a 243 would do the job every time. I feel I owe it to the animal to take perfect shots or pass on an angle Im not sure of. I shoot a small caliber at extreme velocity. 25 cal 110 gr accubonds at 3800fps has accounted for a few elk for me. Put the bullet where it belongs and then let the real work begin.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
Is he still your buddy?
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 66
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 66 |
Hes still a buddy of mine that I fish with. But after refusing to tag a bull he wounded but didnt kill hes not a friend I hunt with anymore.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
Has any of you ever heard the phrase dont bet against the kid who only has one gun and shoots it at everything? I never understood this statement. I may have very well been true back in the day, but I do not believe it anymore. I know plenty of people who have one or two rifles. In most cases it is the only 1 or 2 that they have ever owned. In every case they buy a box of 20 (factory ammo) that last them 2 or 3 years. I think that there is absolutely no correlation between having one rifle and being skilled. JMO.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702 |
Has any of you ever heard the phrase dont bet against the kid who only has one gun and shoots it at everything? I never understood this statement. I may have very well been true back in the day, but I do not believe it anymore. I know plenty of people who have one or two rifles. In most cases it is the only 1 or 2 that they have ever owned. In every case they buy a box of 20 (factory ammo) that last them 2 or 3 years. I think that there is absolutely no correlation between having one rifle and being skilled. JMO. Not in every case,I have two rifles, and only one that's operational right now, it's a Model 7 Magnum chambered in 300 Remington SAUM. It's not my first rifle but it's my second. I don't buy factory ammo as it's cheaper for me to handload and I shoot at least 200rds a year easily. So not everyone who only has 1 or 2 rifles buys factory ammo and only shoots a half dozen rounds a year, although I do know a lot of cheapskates that do that, but I sure as hell ain't one of'em and don't wanna be stuck in the same category either.
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,306 Likes: 2 |
Good on you for jettisoning that dude as far as hunting goes.. Ive seen both the " man with one gun" theory and the rifle loonie succeed spectacularly, and fail as well.. Don't place any faith in either approach. And as I probably stated earlier in the thread, I have personally shot elk with a .243... not my first choice...but an effective one. With todays premium bullets, most notably Barnes TSX or TTSX I wouldnt hesitate to do it again, but it still wouldnt be my first choice...
When I used a .243 on elk its because of a nmumber of reasons, first, its what I had in my hands when an opportune elk showed up, and second, I live in elk country, and can afford to pick and choose my shots.....and have passed up less than stellar opportunities with the little rifle...
Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
Has any of you ever heard the phrase dont bet against the kid who only has one gun and shoots it at everything? I never understood this statement. I may have very well been true back in the day, but I do not believe it anymore. I know plenty of people who have one or two rifles. In most cases it is the only 1 or 2 that they have ever owned. In every case they buy a box of 20 (factory ammo) that last them 2 or 3 years. I think that there is absolutely no correlation between having one rifle and being skilled. JMO. You don't understand the statement because it is rather nonsensical. Having one rifle and shooting it at everything does not equate to the shooter having any skill whatsoever as a shooter or attest to the accuracy of the rifle. My hunting buddy has two rifles, a 7mm RM and a .30-30 and shoots them both very well. I'll bet he hasn't shot two boxes of ammo in the last two years but I wouldnt want to go up against him taking freehand shots for money. At the end of the day shooter skill is just that, and rifles shoot the way they will.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461 |
i have killed 9 elk and guided to 31 others. 2 with a .243. a meat friendly round, just like the 17 with coyotes ( furfriendly) . only you lose a few from time to time
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 153
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 153 |
Skill and shooting ability win out every time. I am appalled at the poor shooting that occurs at any range I frequent. This starts with the Black Gun wannabes, I have a few ARs myself. The guy sighting in his deer rifle, cant understand why he cant hit the paper at all. Well lets start at 25 and see where it is hitting. Excitement and buck fever promulgates poor shooting, been there. Lack of familiarity, the specific weapon or weapons period. Have money can purchase any thing, RUMs, WSMs, RCMs, love the new acronyms. Big guns little experience criminal, little guns poor shooting criminal. Little time to hunt, and poor shooting dont put those big critters on the ground. The 243 will kill anything that walks the continent. It is as good as or better than the old 250 Savage which killed tigers and all manner of fauna after its introduction with an 87gr bullet. The debate will never end, use the biggest you can shoot well. Dont compromise on some misguided thought that you can get by with it. Use good judgement in your shot making, like that will happen on the eleventh hour and the biggest bull on the mountain is mooning you and all you have is.....it doesnt matter, you might want to think again before dropping the hammer.
Estacado
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Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 12,651 |
Let's face it - there will never be 100% agreement on this issue, and thats's fine. Although I wouldn't choose the .243 for my primary elk cartridge, I can't say I wouldn't take a shot if that's what I was carrying while deer hunting and a good opportunity presented itself - just like I wouldn't hesitate with my .257 Roberts under the same conditions.
On the other hand, even many adherents of the .243 rightly admit it is on the marginal side for elk.
I do think we can all agree that at the end of the day bullet placement trumps everything else.
And I still think giving a youngster a .243 to hunt elk with is a mistake in most instances.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,324 Likes: 9
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 26,324 Likes: 9 |
A fair enough question.
In 2007 I took a quartering away shot at a mulie buck. The range was about 150 yards and I was shooting a 7mm RM with 140g North Fork bullets. Just as the trigger broke the buck stepped forward and turned away. As a result the bullet hit low in the right ham. It was recovered from up against the sternum. I have seen .243�s fail to provide anywhere near that amount of penetration.
The biggest bull I�ve ever seen on the hoof while hunting had been shot with a .243 in the right ham by a youngster with a .243 Win. I watched with the boy�s father as the bull easily outdistanced the young hunter who was by then well out of range. My hunting buddy and I didn�t stay to watch the scene play out but given the mobility of the elk and the approaching darkness I doubt the bull was recovered. A heavier bullet might very well have yielded different results, depending on the angle of the shot.
I fully admit that I occasionally hunt elk with my .257 Roberts in spite of its light bullets. (My choice for that is a 120g A-Frame running 2947fps at the muzzle.) When I do so, however, it is after I�ve taken my first elk and am focused primarily on deer but still have an elk tag in my pocket. (On a side note, I am hardly a novice with the .257 Roberts, either.) When going after the first elk of the season I carry my 7mm RM or a .308 Win or larger. My personal opinion is that, when elk are involved, a 6x55, .260 Rem, 7mm-08 or 7x57 loaded with 130g bullets or heavier are better choices for youth/novice guns than a .243 Win.
Just my opinion, though.
I have never had a critter make enough movement to go from broadside to right angles on me. But the longest elk chase I've ever had was a buddy who shot an elk in the ham with a 180gr 06 ( a two day elk chase in fact.......  ) A 243 (even with a Partition) ain't going to penetrate far with a Texas Heart Shot, but I have put a 100gr Pt behind the last rib of a largish cow and had the bullet end up against the forward portion of the off shoulder--I was pretty impressed with the penetration. But I give lots of credit to the bullet. Which brings me back to using good bullets will make the difference in most small and mid bore cartridges. I won't and don't call the 243 an elk cartridge, but it has shown me enough that I am quite confident of what it CAN do--which is why it will be my boy's future elk rifle. Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,828
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,828 |
Well it would not be my choice, simply put I do not live in Elk Country, so its a Major undertaking for me, it terms of time (never enough) money(as of late in short supply) and effort. I can't see why not, its a rifle, they kill a lot of elk with a String, a Spring and a sharp Stick. Good hit is a good hit, bring out the skinning knife, a bad hit is a bad hit and it don't matter what the bullet launcher is, if you can't put that bullet on hair where you want it to go. You just have to be a little more choosy with the shot you will take with a 243 vs say a 30-06 or one of those 9.3 BS's
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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