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noduck, I read somewhere awhile back that parvo was killing your Wolves, any truth to that?

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i believe i could be wrong that was in the mid 90s, as of now as far as i read and can tell wolves are healthy here.. we have a pack of 18 wolves move in were we hunt,, good times all around the deer have moved out,and my buddy was bowhunting with 3 wolves under his stand they wouldnt leave he had to txt us to come and get him.. had 2 buddies almost get charged by 2 wolves long story.. like i said good times... maybe i should invite those wolf loving groups to walk around with me this fall he he

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Originally Posted by luke
noduck, I read somewhere awhile back that parvo was killing your Wolves, any truth to that?


Early 2001 it ran through several of the packs on the east side of Yellowstone and in Wyoming pretty quickly--it surprised the biologists a bit that it impacted packs as significantly and quickly as it did.

It apparently came from the Wyoming side, and so the USFW revised the minimum number of packs and individual wolves upwards some--and thats what motivated Wyoming to sue in federal court..........

A form of Mange in some wolf packs has had a bigger impact in the long run though.



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What may well spell the downfall of the wolf in the west in the long run is a parasite that they are now carrying that is transmisable to humans. It can be transmitted through contact with wolf scat and other means and can be transmitted through the air when, for example, dry wolf scat is disturbed, etc.; the consequences of this parasite are life threatening. In Idaho for example I believe the state is going to bring in the CDC and has plans (if for example Mulloy the federal judge hearing the case to put the wolf back under endangered protection returns the wolf to protected status) to use both the original legislation and the public health issues to reduce the wolf population in the state to the original agreed upon level of "full reintroduction", which is a vastly smaller number than the present number of wolves in the state.

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Originally Posted by 416Rigby1000
What may well spell the downfall of the wolf in the west in the long run is a parasite that they are now carrying that is transmisable to humans. It can be transmitted through contact with wolf scat and other means and can be transmitted through the air when, for example, dry wolf scat is disturbed, etc.; the consequences of this parasite are life threatening. In Idaho for example I believe the state is going to bring in the CDC and has plans (if for example Mulloy the federal judge hearing the case to put the wolf back under endangered protection returns the wolf to protected status) to use both the original legislation and the public health issues to reduce the wolf population in the state to the original agreed upon level of "full reintroduction", which is a vastly smaller number than the present number of wolves in the state.


No small concern. The disease in humans can take 20 years to propagate, and when it does it is game over.

This problem was isolated to Canada and some parts of Alaska until recently. One could surmise that the "reintroduction" of Canadian wolves also introduced a deadly parasite that previously did not exist in the lower 48.

From the CDC:

Quote
For 50 years, E. multilocularis was thought to be confined to the Alaskan coast and Canada. Now, because wild coyotes, foxes, and wolves are being trapped and transported to states where E. multilocularis has not previously been found, there is increased risk of spreading the disease to animals and humans. Wild animals carrying the tapeworm could set up the transmission cycle and expose animals not already infected. Many states prohibit this movement of wild animals, but trapping and movement of infected wild canines still occurs. If the transportation and relocation of these animals continues, the risk of human transmission will increase. Although the chances of contracting AE are low, certain groups may be at greater risk.

You may be at greater risk if you live in an area where E. multilocularis is found (see above). People at high risk include trappers, hunters, veterinarians, or others who contact wild foxes, coyotes, or their stool, or household cats and dogs who have the opportunity to eat wild rodents infected with AE.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/alveolarechinococcosis/factsht_alveolarechinococcosis.htm

And, surprise, surprise. 63% of wolves in Montana and Idaho have been found to carry the parasite/disease:

Quote
Wolf-born hydatid disease: Fact versus fallacy

By TERRI ADAMS, The Prairie Star
Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:26 PM MDT







Many people are in an uproar over wolves and some of those same people are worried about hydatid disease, claiming wolves are carrying and spreading the disease.

While there is some truth to that claim, wolves are not the only carriers of the disease.

Any canine can carry and spread the disease, from wolves and coyotes to the family pet. It depends on the circumstances, not the species.

The disease is caused by a tapeworm and there are nine different strains of the disease, according to Gary McCallister, professor of biology at Mesa State College in Grand Junction, Colo. He has researched hydatid disease in Southern Utah, western Colorado and the Navajo Indian reservation.



McCallister said the eggs need to pass through two different hosts, a carnivore and an ungulate (grazing animal) to complete their cycle.

Hydatid eggs are too tiny to see. When these eggs pass out of an infected canine they can fall on and stick to anything -hair, plants, grasses, he said.



The eggs are then transferred to the ungulate host when it swallows an egg in the course of feeding or licking something tainted with the tiny eggs.

Once the egg enters the second host, it hatches into it larva form. The tapeworm larva then travels through the system of the second host and attaches itself to the internal organs, McCallister said.

There it forms a watery cyst that slowly grows. Hydatis means water in Latin, he explained.

When the infected host dies and the cystic organ, containing the larva, is consumed by a wild animal, McCallister said.

�In sheep the cysts can remain infectious for many months. They don't form ice crystals readily so it has to get very cold before they are destroyed. And if the cysts remain inside a dead animal they are protected from freezing to a great extent,� McCallister said.

For that reason a canine, wild or domestic, can feed on an older carcass and still become infected.

Once inside the new host, the larva develops into an adult tapeworm, produces new eggs, and the cycle repeats itself, he added.

�The disease is mostly a zoonoses, a disease of lower animals that a human can get,� he said.

Humans do not develop an actual tapeworm. Instead, they play host to the larva and develop the watery cysts in their body.

�There is no cure,� said McCallister, although surgery is often used to try and remove any cysts from humans.

Usually the cysts attached to the liver but hydatid cysts in humans have also been found on other organs, including the lungs and in the brain.

McCallister said the disease is a significant health issue because there is no cure and cysts are often difficult to detect and remove.

�However, it is not widespread and so many people see it as unimportant, unless you are the one who gets it. The severity of the disease means it is significant, even if the incidence says it is not,� he said.

The Center for Disease Control (CDC) considers hydatid disease enough of a problem to post several pages and reports on it, noting it is a worldwide problems for humans although, as McCallister said, transmission to humans in the U.S. is low.

Though the chances of contracting hydatid disease are low, the CDC reports that some groups may be at greater risk. McCallister agrees.

�It is mostly associated as an occupational hazard of certain types of agriculture such as sheep, cattle, or in wildlife occupations,� he said.

Humans can ingest the eggs if they handle an infected animal, either living or dead, and then touch their hands to their mouths or handle food.

Hunters, ranchers or trappers who handle the carcasses of wolves or coyotes are especially at risk. Even petting a ranch dog can lead to human infection if the dog has eggs on its fur because it is infected or because it brushed up against eggs somewhere else.

Though the U.S. does not have many reported cases of hydatid disease in humans, some researchers are beginning to suspect that the actual number of human hydatid cases may be higher than previously thought. Definitely the circumstances for infection are increasing.

The Centers for Disease Control report states �because wild coyotes, foxes, and wolves are being trapped and transported to states where E. multilocularis has not previously been found, there is increased risk of spreading the disease to animals and humans .� If the transportation and relocation of these animals continues, the risk of human transmission will increase.�

According to McCallister, foxes are more commonly infected with the E. multilocularis species, which is impossible to treat, because foxes feed more heavily on rodents than wolves do.

The CDC reports, �You may be at greater risk if you live in an area where E. multilocularis is found.�

With the transportation and relocation of wolves, has hydatid disease been found in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho?

The answer is both yes and no.

While there has not been a reported case of hydatid disease in a human this year, the 2009 Idaho Fish and Game Wildlife Health Laboratory (WHL) report stated,�Wolf necropsies indicated the continued presence of lice (Trichodectes canis) and tape worm (Echinococcus), previously detected last year in Idaho. Wolves are most likely the definitive host of this previously unrecognized parasite in the state.�

In 2009 the Journal of Wildlife Diseases published the report, �Echinococcus granulosus in gray wolves and ungulates in Idaho and Montana, USA.�

This report showed that 63 percent of wolves tested in Idaho have hydatid disease while 63 percent of wolves tested in Montana have the disease.

Furthermore, �the detection of thousands of tapeworms per wolf was a common finding.�

The report states �Based on our results, the parasite is now well established in wolves in these states and is documented in elk, mule deer, and a mountain goat as intermediate hosts.

Parasitologist William Foreyt of Washing-ton State University was surprised by the amount of tapeworms they found in the 123 wolves he helped study.

�I was absolutely shocked to see such a high prevalence,� he said. �Some of these wolves had tens of thousands of tapeworms. They were massively infected.�

For their own protection citizens must remember that wolves are not the only carriers.

�All dogs being capable of being infected and the family dog is the greatest threat to most people,� said McCallister.

Not just farm dogs, either.

�We saw numerous poodles infected in southern Utah. They were house pets, but allowed to run free in the neighborhood. In one case the town dump, with sheep carcasses, was only about six blocks away. The dog was trotting over there for its afternoon snack,� he said.

According to the CDC, people at high risk include trappers, hunters, veterinarians, or others who contact wild foxes, coyotes, or their stool, or even those who come in contact with household cats and dogs who may have become infected by eating wild animals and rodents infected with hydatid disease.

Children are also at risk because of their close contact with family pets.

�Dogs can be easily treated and cured, so continued treatment of dogs, care in personal hygiene, keeping dogs from wild animal carcasses, and disposing of animal carcasses properly all help mitigate the disease,� said McCallister.

Hydatid disease is in the area but officials stress there is no reason to panic.

Good hygiene and simple precautions will greatly reduce or even eliminate the risk to the hard-working families of Montana and Wyoming.




http://www.theprairiestar.com/articles/2010/03/24/ag_news/livestock/live1.txt

More background here: http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/03/10/wolf-worms-and-other-wolf-born-diseases/

How do you think the pubic would react if the reintroduction of a species say, in California or New York, brought a deadly disease along with it? I assure you the species would be "unintroduced" in a hurry. But hey, it's just flyover states, and only poses a serious threat to hunters and ranchers.

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Good post!

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The MAJOR cause of elk number decline was the artifically low, socially not biologically set elk objective numbers. Then the livestock controlled legislature (eg. Debbie Barrent and posse) mandating FWP to be on or below objective by the end of 2009.

This lead to liberal elk seasons, while wolf numbers rose, and in most of R2, lions were also being socially managed, and to a certain degree protected.

The perfect storm to reduce elk numbers. Rising 4 legged predator numbers and dramaticlly increased hunter harvest.

The Montana Legislature did more damage to elk populations then wolves ever will. Some will not agree, but let me tell ya, this is what went down. Region 3 will be next. Two years from right now your liberal season will be cut back, wolves will be blamed and the forums will light up about.


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Originally Posted by creasy
... dramaticlly increased hunter harvest.




?????????????


Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by lodgepole

Its a fact that many people practice it in my area. Wolves are just starting to show up here and between the people who raise sheep and the people who want to keep our great elk herd intact I think we can avert a bad situation.


But....the more common it becomes, the more folks will be caught. The more people who are caught, the more heat that will generate on hunters and livestock producers as a whole. Then everybody loses.

Not to mention some well advertised convictions and time in prison will take pause for some folks.

It's kind've like saying poachers keep deer and elk populations under control by....well....poaching.

From the standpoint of the law, and most Americans, poaching is poaching, and not something I would associate myself with......


Casey


In general I agree that across the board people lump all poaching together and no illegal killing can be called a good thing. In this case I think the people of WY are pretty well fed up with the federal government and its handling of the wolf situation and are much more likely to turn a blind eye or a deaf ear toward the killing of wolves than they are when other animals are involved. The guys at WY Game and Fish that I know arent real gung ho about protecting wolves either. I'd hazard a guess that it would be pretty hard to convict someone of shooting a wolf in areas that lose many calves,sheep, and game to wolves. I could be wrong but I dont think so.


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Originally Posted by 416Rigby1000
What may well spell the downfall of the wolf in the west in the long run is a parasite that they are now carrying that is transmisable to humans. It can be transmitted through contact with wolf scat and other means and can be transmitted through the air when, for example, dry wolf scat is disturbed, etc.; the consequences of this parasite are life threatening. In Idaho for example I believe the state is going to bring in the CDC and has plans (if for example Mulloy the federal judge hearing the case to put the wolf back under endangered protection returns the wolf to protected status) to use both the original legislation and the public health issues to reduce the wolf population in the state to the original agreed upon level of "full reintroduction", which is a vastly smaller number than the present number of wolves in the state.


To think that this parasite has been contained only to a couple of regions, seems odd to me. I'm no expert on parasites, but if these things have been around sense time began, I'd say that they are here now. What was to stop them. When the wolf was shot off, the coyote took his place, and in greater numbers. So more poop. Bears, would be just as likely to carry the parasite as the wolf. So we need to exterminate any predator that eats meat?

I shot a moose in 1993, before the parasites were being trnsfered by wolves. As I was cutting up the meat I noticed little white cysts in the muscles. I called FW&P, they told me I could eat it but to heat it well. I said no thanks. They sent a warden over, who took the meat, and feed it to lions that where being rehabilitated.

My cats eat mice, and from time to time a little white portion of a worm wiggles out their anus. I go get some tape worm meds and it clears them up for awhile.

I'll bet this has been here for ever. Just not known. If they weren't looking for it, how would they know one way or the other?

It's going to be a tough sell to prove that it has never been in the environment until wolves showed up.


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Originally Posted by 4100fps
I shot a moose in 1993, before the parasites were being trnsfered by wolves. As I was cutting up the meat I noticed little white cysts in the muscles. I called FW&P, they told me I could eat it but to heat it well. I said no thanks. They sent a warden over, who took the meat, and feed it to lions that where being rehabilitated.

My cats eat mice, and from time to time a little white portion of a worm wiggles out their anus. I go get some tape worm meds and it clears them up for awhile.


And from these anecdotes, you can extrapolate to conclude what regarding wolves?



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Godogs, I wonder how much "rhetoric" there'd be if a wolf tried to find his way south, or if you turned loose a bonifide group of dixie flag flying rednecks in the west. A conservatives worst nightmare....

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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
[quote=rl11]
Like I said, a whole lot of rhetoric.......and not a lot of conservation ethic.........



Casey




Isn't it ironic to hear a wolf supporter speaking of ethics......

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You took only part of my post to question. I explained what you can" extrapolate from these anecdotes".

These parasites are here, have been here, and will be here regardless of the wolf.


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As Jeff Foxworthy used to say...it would be "mass pandalerium"....crazy times indeed! It is the same reason that aliens never land in the south....our redneck army would blast 'em back to Mars.


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Originally Posted by 4100fps
These parasites are here, have been here, and will be here regardless of the wolf.


Sounds like the wolf is the vector for human exposure, like mice are for hantavirus.

Hantavirus has been around forever, regardless of the mice.

But if/when people start dying, something will be done about the vector.



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Smokepole,

Yeah, I've noticed there are no more mice around to carry hantavirus...they're about to make the ESL.

If you think wolves will be eliminated because of a few parasites...you'd be wrong.

Its about as lame as the "two seperate species" argument. Time to realize that wolves are part of the ecological system. That battle is over and you wont be changing that...period.

Time to quit with the unrealistic fear mongering campaigns and start dealing in the reality of how to correctly manage wolves. That means keeping them off the list and at acceptable numbers via legal hunting and trapping.

Arguing over parasites, the different species arguement, etc. that isnt doing anything constructive. Its a waste of time.

But, feel free to argue and waste your time how you see fit.

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Originally Posted by BuzzH
Smokepole,

Yeah, I've noticed there are no more mice around to carry hantavirus...they're about to make the ESL.

If you think wolves will be eliminated because of a few parasites...you'd be wrong....

That battle is over and you wont be changing that...period.


You're right, I won't be changing it. But the people in the affected states just might.

As far as hantavirus, your argument is apples and oranges. Mice as a species aren't endangered, same as the Canadian Gray Wolf is not endangered. So what. If you've ever been in an area where hantavirus is a problem, you'd know that "rodent control" is the primary method of controlling the virus. So in those areas, mice are eradicated through whatever means necessary to control them.

Personally, I know diddly about this parasite that wolves carry so I don't know if the threat to humans is significant enough to be a concern, and that's not what I commented on. But if people start dying, it will be a concern. That was all I said, in response to a post from a guy using anecdotes about seeing worms crawl out his cat's ass.



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Originally Posted by lodgepole

In general I agree that across the board people lump all poaching together and no illegal killing can be called a good thing. In this case I think the people of WY are pretty well fed up with the federal government and its handling of the wolf situation and are much more likely to turn a blind eye or a deaf ear toward the killing of wolves than they are when other animals are involved. The guys at WY Game and Fish that I know arent real gung ho about protecting wolves either. I'd hazard a guess that it would be pretty hard to convict someone of shooting a wolf in areas that lose many calves,sheep, and game to wolves. I could be wrong but I dont think so.



By the time a guy has been run through the federal legal system, facing prison time and fines, he will 1) spend 10's of thousands of dollars on attorneys, or 2) cop a plea rather than risk a trial. And the whole process will take a year or more out of his life regardless of the outcome.

Once charged, the punishment is "built in" no matter the outcome.......

You don't want to be charged with intentionally killing a federally protected species that is not threatening your life or property--especially a high profile species like a wolf.


Casey


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Originally Posted by bxroads
Originally Posted by alpinecrick
[quote=rl11]
Like I said, a whole lot of rhetoric.......and not a lot of conservation ethic.........



Casey





Isn't it ironic to hear a wolf supporter speaking of ethics......




It's not ironic at all to hear a wildlife conservationist speak of ethics.

The contradiction is when somebody picks and chooses among species, calls themselves a conservationist when convenient, advocates poaching when it's not convenient, and THEN criticizes others for ethics.........
crazy


Casey


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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