Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin 336 Lever Actions Why did Marlin not just use the .307 Winchester instead of the .308 Marlin Express

I'm sure this subject has been brought up before but I can't help but ask this & the search engine can be difficult to pin down what you're looking for.

Why did Marlin make a new cartridge when is seems that the 307 Winchester was perfectly adequate for the task and has quite a bit more case volume? Does this have something to do with save working pressures or the tube length getting an extra round?

I read somewhere that a guy converted his 336 30-30 to a .307 and reloads using the Hornady Leverevolution bullets. This would seem to me like a great hunting round in a Lever action, just slightly ahead of the ME. Someone fill me in on this, what am I missing?

And is the .308 Marlin Express (ME) destined to become obsolete like the .307. The only thing I see that is has working for it are Hornady's proprietary powder, but if that becomes public, the .307 would out perform the .308 ME.

I think I may have found part of the reason. The spitzer bullets in the standard .307 length will not fit in the 336, therefore they needed to cut back the case. In addition, Marlin probably wanted to resurrect this type of chambering & figured it would be best to come out with their own.

Supposedly there is an article in American Rifleman that explains the new cartridge in new detail. It would be nice to have one if you knew it stick around, but the .308 winchester is stiff competition, of course one is limited to the Model 99 Savage & Browning BLR. I have the BLR and although the gun has been useful (light & good in the woods) I would desire something in stainless and better construction.

The .307 Winchester was to much for the 336. That's why none were ever sold to the public. The real question is why did we need a new cartridge when we already had the .30-30. The Savage 99 (nor the BLR) doesn't really factor in because it heavier (and uglier) than a bolt gun while not being as accurate as a boltgun.

The 307 is not too much for the Marlin, two things were/are wrong with the 307. Marlin is not dumb enough to chamber for a didn't sell. The buying public would not buy it in Winchesters so Marlin would not have done any better. Gun buyers want something new, not obsolete, the 307 just would not sell.
The other thing with the 307 is it's originator, who designed it? Winchester. Who would want to build a new rifle and put their competitors name on it? 307 Winchester is out, 308 Marlin is in.

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The 307 Winchester is just a bit too much for the Marlin 336 action. The problem is sticky extraction. Seattleloader has two Marlin 336 rifles barreled for the 307 Winchester by Mr. Nonneman and these rifles while very accurate, exhibited sticky extraction when loaded to high pressure.
The 307 and 356 Winchester cartridges were actually �invented� by P.O. Ackley, Dean Grennell, Frank Hemsted and a few other members of the American Reloaders Association in 1968 as part of a series of short articles about modernizing the standard lever action rifles. Frank Hemsted accurately predicted the performance of the two cartridges before any rifles were built. Several other wildcatters worked with the idea and Myron Rockett�s article in the 1979 issue of Gun Digest brought the 444/308 wildcat to the publics attention. I thought the cartridge would be legitimized by Winchester quickly after this but it took quite awhile for the 307 and 356 to appear.
The problem with the 307 and 356 was the negative press or total ignoring of the cartridge by the gun press. If the new Winchester cartridges had benefited from the positive press the 308 Marlin Express has received they might have stood a chance in the market place. Out to 240-yards there is no difference between the 307 Winchester loaded with a flat nose bullet and the 308 Marlin Express loaded with the LeveRevolution bullet. The difference is in the press coverage.
The new Marlin 308MX is a �better� rifle than the Winchester Model 94AE as far as fit of the interior locking pieces and a few other tricks such as nylon rub strips on the forend which give the 308MX rifle the potential of delivering excellent accuracy for any production rifle, not just a lever action rifle.
The facts still remain the 308 Marlin Express cartridge is loaded to less pressure than the 307 Winchester cartridge.

Edit] I fixed the year of the ARAB articles and should have mentioned that Seattle only gives up about 100- to 125-fps over the Winchester rifles.

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"The 307 Winchester is just a bit too much for the Marlin 336 action. The problem is sticky extraction. Seattleloader has two Marlin 336 rifles barreled for the 307 Winchester by Mr. Nonneman and these rifles while very accurate, exhibited sticky extraction when loaded to high pressure."

You are saying that those cartridges are too much for a Marlin? Yet the Winchester AE used them for years with no problem. Is the Winchester open top receiver that much stronger then the enclosed bolt of the Marlin?

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All above is BS. The bottom line is that Marlin wanted a proprietary cartridge. Just how hard is that to understand. Just like Winchester continued to mark M1894s 30 WFC long after Marlin was marking rifles 30-30 Winchester. Bottom line was that it was a Winchester developed cartridge named 30 WFC and that was held up in court when Winchester sued both Marlin and Savage. Thus the 30 WFC marking on Winchesters and 30-30 Winchester or just 30-30 on Marlins and Savages.

The .307 is too much for the Marlin 336. Marlin even admitted it.

So the Marlin is substantially weaker than a 94 Winchester?

Skidrow says " All above is BS. The bottom line is that Marlin wanted a proprietary cartridge. Just how hard is that to understand. Just like Winchester continued to mark M1894s 30 WCF long after Marlin was marking rifles 30-30 Winchester. Bottom line was that it was a Winchester developed cartridge named 30 WCF and that was held up in court when Winchester sued both Marlin and Savage. Thus the 30 WFC marking on Winchesters and 30-30 Winchester or just 30-30 on Marlins and Savages."

I agree. Skidrow's assertion sounds the more logical. Marlin produced the 356 and 375 that generate the same pressure as the 307. I think that the reason's had to do with marketing, not pressures.

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I have never understood the �partisan� bickering over which rifle is �stronger.�
A simple search of the phrase �.307 Winchester� will bring up a number of threads on the Marlin Forum or on the Beartooth Shooters board. The Marlin board has several interesting threads in which at least 3 different posters shooting Marlin 336 rifles have discussed sticky extraction at high pressure load levels with the 307 Winchester cartridge. At least one Marlin board member who posts regularly works for Marlin and has discussed strength issues with this conversion.
No one is saying the Marlin 336 rifle will �blow up� if reamed for the 307 Winchester cartridge. We are saying those who have reamed their rifles to 307 Winchester have found the 336 action will not handle the same load levels as the Winchester Model 94 Big Bore rifle.
I am a fan of the 307 Winchester cartridge and I have discussed high pressure loads for the 307 Winchester with many shooters and we have discussed Winchester rifles exhibiting �lever-kick� on hot days when the cartridge is loaded to high pressure using powders such as Alliant Reloder 15 and Hodgdon Varget. The easiest way I have found to demonstrate lever-kick is to shoot maximum published loads using 170-grain bullets and Winchester 748 or Hodgdon BLc2. Maximum loads at temperatures above 90 degrees Fahrenheit will generally kick the lever, a sure warning sign you need to reduce your load for these hot days.
If you start a search using words or phrases such as: �blow up.� or �Kaboom� etc you will bring up a number of pictures of Marlin 336 rifles which have failed in the barrel thread area. I think I have at least four in my �Kaboom� folder. I have not located any pictures of a blown up Winchester Model 94 other then the pictures in P.O. Ackley�s Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. If you have a picture of a Winchester which let go I would like to see it.

I have little use for the Winchester 94. I was just reporting what Marlin said.

And it boils down to just that: A preference for the way the rifle feels in you hands. I have both and enjoy loading for and shooting them.
Winchester rifles and cartridges didn�t fail; those who built them and marketed them failed a good product, not for the first or last time. Let�s hope Remington handles the Marlin brand a little better.

William,
Your assertion that the 336 cannot handle the 307 is correct, and validated by Marlin itself canceling the 307 debut after only a few prototypes were built.
The reason Marlin released the 308 ME is to copy the 307 with a cartridge friendly to the 336 action. The 94 big bore action was designed for the use of 50,000 psi cartridges. The 336 is at its best with cartridges that generate less than 45,000psi. Were both the 375 and the 356 shoehorned into the 336? Sure, but this does not mean the marriage is ideal.
Marlin itself has admitted that pushing the 50,000psi level results in sticky extraction, and is the upper limit of the design strength of this action.
By the way, Marlin has, in a sense merely reinvented the wheel with both their 308 and 338 cartridges. This is not to disparage either, but the fact remains for handloaders, both cartridges will have real performance levels below both the 307 and the 33WCF.
I suppose Remington has sealed Marlin's fate. Since FN destroyed Winchester, its all falling like a row of dominoes. Suspect that we will see a drop in Marlin quality, similar to Winchester, as the workers already know the noose is closing, and loose all interest in the company they helped to make.

�By the way, Marlin has, in a sense merely reinvented the wheel with both their 308 and 338 cartridges. This is not to disparage either,�

Well said. If you have not hunted with the 307 Winchester the 30-30AI and the 308 Marlin Express it is difficult to visualize the level of performance increase over other cartridges of the same class. These words are not intended to disparage other wonderful cartridges in this power class such as the 30-40 Krag and the 300 Savage.
The 307 Winchester and the Big Bore rifle are indeed obsolete. If you think you will ever have an interest in a cartridge of this class it is a good time to purchase a 308 Marlin Express. These are fine rifles in their own right and capable of surprising accuracy for a factory stock rifle shooting the Hornady LeveRevolution ammunition. It is easy to load for the 308 Marlin Express and the rifle and cartridge perform very well with the conventional flat nose bullets and the pointy Hornady bullets. If you haven�t tried one you don�t know.

As a 338MX owner, I'm getting a little sick of hearing how "useless" the new Marlin Express rifles are. Bolt users will bash them w/o considering what a blessing these rifles are to left handed shooters. And lever users are often even worse at times.

I think one of the biggest barriers to new calibers becoming established is most lever users seem to think there's no need, and usually refer to a dead cartridge that the new cartridge is similar too in order to make their point.

So they create a self fulfilling prophecy as they discourage one person after another to try the new rifle. And often this is done by people who have never bothered to shoot the new caliber / rifle, so they in reality, are basing their opinion on nothing but a ill formed prejudice against "something new".

My 338MX has garnered interest at the range when I've broke it out and I'm willing to let others shoot it. You should see the smiles it gets when someone gives it a try. I'm directly responsible for 3 other people who are now trying to find a 338MX to buy.

So here's an idea. Find someone with one of these and try shooting one.

People that own these tend to love 'em. You'll always find someone that won't like it, but the vast majority that actually bought one of these think Marlin has a winner, and these are people who have shot and own other levers in other calibers.

One other thing that seems to get ignored in this bashing is that ALL new calibers start out with the gun and ammo only being available from one source. When other companies see they'll sell, they start jumping in.

Think the Marlin Express might be n exception and only be proprietary to Marlin? Mossberg, Henry, and Rossi all came out recently with levers employing an enclosed round bolt similar to the 336 mechanism. So they've laid the groundwork to allow them to build rifles in chamberings like the 308 Marlin Express if they feel there's a market for them.

I am the proud owner of a Marlin .308ME and love it! It is extremely accurate and a lot of fun to shoot. I have owned it for over two years and have never had any trouble with it at all. People at the range are always suprised to see the 100 to 200 yard groups this gun is capable of. Most agree it would make an excellent deer and coyote gun.

Bob

The new Marlin Express rifles are giving a lot of trouble if the ongoing reports on Marlin Owners are any indication. The .30-30 is as good as the .308ME and the .444 beats the pants of the .338ME. They are an answer to a question that wasn't ask.

Such as?

My 308MX jammed once when it was new � less than 10 rounds fired � I admit I was lazy about cleaning it right from the box. The jam was a cartridge which jumped the cartridge stop and slipped under the lifer tying up the action. I lubed the magazine tube and the action, it has never faltered again. I have shot this rifle quite a lot � but I do not have a round count I would rely on.

I have taken quite a few deer with the 30-30 cartridge. I enjoy loading for and hunting with the 30-30. I would not consider the 30-30 the equal of the 30-30AI, 307 Winchester or the 308 Marlin Express under any circumstances and I have hunted with all three. We have two 26� 30-30 rifles of modern manufacture. These rifles exhibit a considerable improvement over the 20� 30-30 carbine but they cannot equal the performance of the 20� 307 Winchester or the 22� 308 Marlin Express.

The standard 30-30 is quite impressive on our West Texas deer when loaded with the 150-grain Barnes X or the Speer 130-grain Hot Core bullet. Even these wonderful loads cannot match the more powerful cartridges when we are discussing deer or pigs.