Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa DGR - No Good American Rifles/Cartridge? According to "Rifa", that's right.

Great picture and a super bear. To hell with which rifle he used. Compliment the hunter on getting a fine trophy !

700's having proved themselves (your words) implies in some way the military sniper rifles have relevence. They are 700's in name only. Yes, 700's are the low bid. Which is better is again a non-issue - they meet the mil-spec and are low bid - they win.

Why do most/many police pick 700's? The low bid/best deal and it's legally defensable - the military uses it, it's gotta be good.

Mtn Hunter, I think you missed much of my post. I certainly don't care what anyone uses. I have very accurately posted events I have seen first hand. Weigh them for yourself. It's free info which you can blow off and forget or take to heart when a future purchase is coming. Makes no difference to me whatever. If your Nasa metallurgy friend is happy and he killed a nice bear then I'm really happy for him. Lots of Brownings seem to make their owners very happy. I'm not in a position to judge them one way or another.

Again I posted factual real experiences I have seen first hand with Browning rifles. Not hearsay or any percieved vendetta against the company. Everyone should pick what they like and be happy. I know after what I have seen I'll never own one. But that's just one mans opinion here! I should add that some of the others who had the Brownings involved with these mishaps, have stated,.. in my presence that they would sell the one they had and also never own another one. But that is usually a quick comment after a catastrophic failure stated with emotion, not with logic. I'm confident that when they cooled down a bit or got home they may have had the warranty work done and settled back down a bit?

The two brothers that both bought brand new Abolts in 375HH for brown bear hunts and both heard them "click" and fail to fire in the same ten day hunt, then both used my rusty old absolutely blue-less piece of crap 375HH model 70 with a hacksawed off 20" barrel to take bears. I'm thinking those guns were returned to the dealer when they got home!

When the first brother shot at 50 yards and the gun just clicked and very lightly dented the primer. He used my 375HH and drilled the bear dead as a rock.

We tried to free up that rusted firing pin(Stainless steel?) but no luck. A few days later the other brother sets out with me and exactly the same thing click and a lightly dented primer. We were sure he accidentally took his brothers gun, but it was not. He could also not open the bolt to get the shell out for the longest time. This bear ran off and we lost the chance. He did kill another bear days later but not with his rifle.

Think that dealer got an ear full when these two brothers got home and visited that gun shop!

BC Brian, As far as accuracy goes, well I'm afraid your asking the wrong guy. I'm not into the whole obsessive accuracy game. If I shoot 2" at 100 yards I'm going hunting. I much prefer to spend my time in the bush not on the bench. Im a hunter only and not a target shooter or obsessive reloader. I doubt there is one in a thousand rifles made that are less accurate then I need. I only have a couple rifles and they are simple old and boring tools compared to what most guys pack around today. My 30/06 and 375 shoot good but I would never be able to tell you what they group with any accuracy to the statement.

When I lay the rifle down on a rest and verify that the hole is where the crosshairs were at, I'm good to go. I spend absolutley no more time bench testing than I have to. Since I handload hundreds of rounds at a time I only verify my loads when I open a new batch of dated ammo. After that check, i'm hunting again.

I don't shoot outside my comfort zone, I'm a ZERO risk kinda guy. I also shoot big game with my big game rifles so a 6" group at 300 yards is plenty small enough for me. My philosophy may not be for everyone but I'll tell you I have seen so many guys with long range tack driving gear and 50mm scopes blow shots at 150 yards that I'll stick with my style for the foreseable future.

I have never quite understood the mentality of preparing for the one in a million chance of a 450 yard shot that you develope your equipment and style around it. Yet the "gimmie" shots of 100-200 yards become a struggle to accomplish. This is not just a few hunters either. I have seen countless guys start looking for a rest or a seated position to hit an animal at 60 yards broadside. I guess those long range 14 pound rifles with that huge 50mm scope is hard to hold steady free hand? I have also seen them shoot clear over the back of game at 200 yards. Becuase the trajectory for a 450 yard shot requires a 300 yard zero. Now you have a 5 or 6" high point at 200 yards. So holding right on the game puts the bullet above the vitals. Add in the shakes, the stress, the wind, the rush, and who knows where that bullet hits! But that rifle is a tack driver at 450 yards?? To each his own I suppose!

I like the chambering. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chuck

I think we'd get along famously. I'm already making plans to make my new Ruger 30-06 20" with a 2x scope. May or may not go syn stock.

As an outsider to the African hunt, it seems to me that the point that has been missed on the rifles falling apart, whatever make, model or whatever is: these aint' no whitetail deer rounds they are sending downrange. The .30-06 is one thing, the .375 H&H is a completly different beast. Step "up" to the .4xx, now you really got some [bleep] goin' on !!!

Personally when I have the chance to do the Africa thing, I will have the finest gunsmith I can find, (insert yours here:___________ ) work the rifle, any rifle, to the maximum it will do. If the Smith says it aint' good, I would rather buy another rifle of whatever make & redo it all, than have a great giant mudhole stomped in me by some badass critter...

Plus, you never get to re-hash your hunt here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Pat

I agree totally with JJHack's observation on how field accuracy is infinitly more important than the ability to shoot small groups at the range.

When I was very young I used to come home from the range with paper "groups" to show my Dad - point being he could never get them as small as I could.

The first big buck presented itself on my very first hunting trip - right in the middle of the logging road at perhaps 75 to 100 yards away. My Dad said "Take him" - he didn't even bother watching - as he was reaching back over the seat to bring out the knives as I jumped out to shoot. BANG! Away sprang the deer - as untouched as the day it was born! I'd learned my lesson! From then on I stopped bragging about my groups sizes and started more creative shooting - like inflated balloons whipping across the land in heavy wind, like ravens in swaying trees and rocks on hillsides - from crazy angles - all offhand. I don't think I missed one big head in about the next 20 I shot at.

Having said that - I really care how well a rifle shoots. I don't care much about how small a group it shoots - if it shoots around an inch at a hundred yards. I'm not capable of any better in the field. And yet - to me, when a manufacturer sells a modern bolt action that's incapable of shooting close to an inch at a hundred - to me, that just screams out "LACK OF QUALITY" - and in a modern rifle - I see no excuse for it.

The way I see it - if a company doesn't care to produce a decently accurate rifle (the one area everyone checks out) how much can they be depended on to produce a quality product in the things I can't see or measure?

So for me - innaccurate rifles are just a sign of shoddy workmanship - and as such - I don't wish to encourage such a thing by spending my money on them. It has nothing to do with any "need".

Thanks to everyone for the fine comments and a special tip of my hat for this one in particular:

"I have never quite understood the mentality of preparing for the one in a million chance of a 450 yard shot that you develope your equipment and style around it. Yet the "gimmie" shots of 100-200 yards become a struggle to accomplish." - JJHACK

To each his own, but I've seen young hunters get carried away with the concept of "one aiming point fits all."

Also, what's wrong with the tang safety Ruger had on the M77? I thought that was an okay location.

Prospector:

Looks like I am late. This post has been around a while and the article apparently timed out.

Never-the-less, I made some remarkably astute decisions more than 50 years ago, when I was a young man, based on the knowledge and advice of a good friend who was my mentor and who has proven to be surprisingly accurate and knowledgeable.

I bought Mauser 98's. And in the ensuing years I have come to favor Mausers over others. I have several which date from the early 1900's upto the late 1900's.

The aparently not well known, but late and great, John Buhmiller was a gunsmith barrel maker from Montana who travelled to Tanzania numerous times and shot hundreds of animals in ALL categories. John also reworked his own rifles and made his own bullets. He is, in my estimation, the top expert who lamentable has received little notariety.

Johns preferred rifles were the Brevex Mauser's. They were infallible. He was in dicey situations repeatedly and his guns NEVER failed him. At times he dropped dangerous beasts literally at his toes.

I lived, and hunted, in Africa at the time John was travelling there but our trails never crossed, unfortunately.

I can't and won't say anything negative about American firearms. I have/had Winchesters, Brownings/ Rugers.

My clear preferences are the Mauser 98's and the Double Bridges. These are now available from Taconic Arms in New Hampshire, Vektor, South Afica and Sabi South Africa as well as some new upstarts in Europe who revived *( thankfully ) the old, defunct Mauser Oberndorf models.

Bill Tibbe

Bill Tibbe, some of my most pleasurable experiences in life have been based on the use of old Browning Safari rifles from the .300 Win Mag to the .458 and I heartily agree that the Mauser action is a fine thing. John Buhmiller knew what he and his work was about, too. Good stuff there.

I don't understand anyone having a problem with the Model 70 safety. I can flick mine back and forth with my thumb quickly and in complete silence. As for laying that thumb along side of the stock instead of wrapping it around the grip, no way. I feel I lose some control doing that. However, if you crawl the stock on a hard kicker that thumb may meet your nose with nasty results. Of course, crawling the stock on hard kickers is fraught with peril anyway.

About John Buhmiller dropping beasts at his feet...

John carried a permanant bruise on the inside of one of his calfs in the shape of a buffalo foot. On one of his hunts, he was shooting one of his own experimental single shot actions when the weapon jammed up after a shot - He was walking backward trying to clear the weapon and reload as the beast was charging and his "backups" were shooting - John tripped over a root, and sprawled backward onto the turf as the beast over-ran him and fell dead some 10 feet past him, after leaving its imprint on his leg.

I have to agree with JJ about most bolt actions having the safety on the wrong side...I just wish company's would either fit them on the left side of the action where they can be naturally operated with the thumb without breaking your shooting grip as on the FN Fal for instance ...failing that a tang safety would be good...The strangest safety I have seen is on one of the European rifles (a Sauer I think) and that is within the trigger guard...

Regards,

Pete

I have only owned one Browning rifle. It was the first and last. I bought it new in 2001 and it spent most of the year traveling from my home to the gunsmith to Browning and back. It was an A-Bolt stainless in .30-06. The biggest problem was miss-fires. It would dent the primer, and not fire. This was all with factory ammo. The second problem was that when it did fire you had a 50/50 chance of the bolt opening without beating the hell out of it with a rubber mallet. What a piece of crap.

BOWHUNR