Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Does 1lb make THAT much difference?

AFP<BR>Please do hunt in the mountains with your 10# gun. I support the right of each and every individual to do what ever they please and the law allows.<P>I don't even believe that motorcyclists should wear helmets, even if mandated by law, if they choose not to. Because their OPINION is that it is better to die than to be a para- or quadraplegic. FACTS are that the added weight of a helmet is enough to do serious spinal cord damage. Statistics show that a wreck will more likely result in a broken neck if the rider has his helmet on.<P>FACTS are that the gun industry has been perking along for all these years building different guns for different needs. It is not by chance that different models from different makers, designed for the same task all weigh about the same. All of the makers want to produce a product which will perform and get rave reviews from all the users. It is critical that people be able to use their guns when they get there.<P>It is a FACT that heavier rifles are easier to hold when you are fresh. It is also FACT that if you were tough enough to carry the big rifles and stay fresh you might be able to shoot them better. The problem comes in that it takes serious conditioning to do that. I ain't man enough to do it, never was.<P>Your OPINION is that you are tough enough to do it. You are claiming a physical feat that few are capable of, and fewer would dare to claim once they had tried it.<P>In various hunting camps I have guided from, dudes were watched carefully when they got off the plane. Every aspect of the clients was watched, and we "fought" over who got which client. Spending a week or more with some guy you just met in a tiny tent on a mountain side could be less than fun.<P>Their firearms were the first thing we checked. We had them shoot to "check their scopes?" No, we were looking at how they handled their rifles, and what their rifles had to say. <P>A dude with 10# rifle would ALWAYS get the guide with the shortest straw.<P>I'll pass on regaling you with my physical feats, but I will say there are a number of folks who have been sitting on the side laughing themselves silly.<P>You can also "lose" the argument about your pack carrying your rifle so well. If you are hunting, the rifle must be in your hands.<P>Again, continue to carry your 10# rifle- it makes you a true preservationist.<P>BTW Do you know what a boned-out Dall ram with cape and horns weighs?<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

"That said, it is obvious that you are a nonconfrontational sort with real disdain for a harsh word, for offending you I apologize."<P>If you're serious and not just taking a poke at me, I'm sorry I offended you. I'm not part of the inner circle--so I try to be respectful and cautious in my comments, acting as I think a good guest would. Maybe that comes over as weakness, condescension, or disdainfulness. Hey, sorry, Pal. No offense intended. Didn't know I was in your business--I wasn't aiming those comments in your direction.

Rex,<P>I wasn't going to post anymore but I saw your last post and you don't have your e-mail address listed. <P>You need to apologize to NO ONE for your comments. In fact, your comments are the "class act" of this thread, and your efforts at reconciliation are to be commended. Well said. You are clearly a gentleman. Drop me an e-mail sometime. I won't be around here much if at all anymore. <P>Art, <P>I defer entirely to you, understand your opinion is the ONLY one that counts, and realize everything I, my dad, and my grandfather have chosen and experienced is BS. You strategy of emotional ridicule has defeated me. Well done. I am vanquished. Please use the same strategy when debating the anti's. I am sure you'll win many people over.<P>Blaine<BR><p>[This message has been edited by AFP (edited May 10, 2001).]

I wasn't going to say anymore on this ridiculous thread, but Sitka Deer's second post above was too much. I sure would like to see you negotiating some of that really steep stuff with your rifle in your hands CONSTANTLY as you claim, when you start to slip, do you just throw the rifle, or use it as some kind of ice ax to arrest your fall? Perhaps you are so perfect that you never slip? It would seem so by your posts. Or climbing around in the Snake River canyons upright with your rifle in your hands. It is covered with pea gravel sized volcanic debris. The question is not if you are going to fall/slip but how often and where? It makes sense to negotiate certain spots with your rifle slung, and on your knees or nearly so, using rocks, vegetation etc to help out. So that if/when you slip you won't build up the momentum to get you really rolling down the cliff side. But you just charge on up them, rifle in hand, and we'll try to catch it before it hits the river.<P>You obviously need to revist those charm schools, where they should have taught you that there is room for more than one way of doing something. For instance, maybe AFP is not talking about hunting Dall Sheep with his carriage mounted--in your mind--rifle? Is there any other animal in the mountainous regions of the world that are more accessible and may not require the techinical skills or level of fitness that you seem to think that everyone should have? Hmmmm, deer, elk, and others come to mind.<P>IMO, I would rather spend a week in a tent with the reverend Jesse Jackson(not my favorite person) than listening to you make pronouncements written in stone. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but in your view no one has ever killed a Dall with a rifle and scope weighing more than 6 pounds. I'm certain that any rational examination of the facts would back this up. NOT.

born AK<BR>Now I am very sorry I offended you. I did not address you in the way that I did as anything but a compliment. From your perspective now I see why you might take offense at my phraseology.<P>My comment about you being nonconfrontational was not an insult of any kind, but rather a compliment to one who clearly possesses something I do not.<P>I addressed the post to you in attempt to say that I was not worked up and angry, but rather, simply debating a point.<P>There was nothing directed toward you that was intended to be critical, please stick around and comment anytime you wish. No one has any claim to any inner-circle any more than you. There are a number of your other posts I have really enjoyed.<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

If it flies<BR>Every one of my hunting rifles carries a sling. My pack has a rifle carrier and it gets used a lot for negotiating the steep stuff. <P>I have fallen and I have slipped many times. Climbers will tell you that arrest from a vertical fall is much easier than from your knees. If your boots do not allow you to stand upright, you should not be there with those boots.<P>That said, you are right I was being stubborn, maybe a bit ridiculous. And I already said a sheep has been killed with a carriage mounted rifle, I did it. Which is why I was so stubborn.<P>I am finished with the stubborn streak in this thread, sure hope I didn't annoy too many others sitting alongside.<P>I honestly believe you would not have a problem with me in a tent.<P>Jessee? Man, that hurts!<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Last night I was about ready to hit the road. I'm glad to see the comments that followed my last post. I enjoy talking with the guys on this board. If I have a question, I ask it, and I get a range of advice often from different perspectives. Sitka Deer, thanks for your friendly comments. AFP--very kindly put, and I enjoy your posts. Big Sky, I'm going to finish up that bedding job sometime soon (I'm as slow as molasses, as you can see!)I'm dealing with some health problems right now (discomfort--nothing life threatening) and a heavy workload, so I'm falling behind. Now that I think of it, if I don't get my butt down and buy this year's hunting license, I'll lose out on the X-Zones drawings here in Kalifornia (one of the best chances to actually see a deer on public land). Anyway, I really appreciate the info that's shared here. And I do get a ton of pleasure out of hearing about your hunts in much more hunter-friendly parts of this country. Best, Rex

You'll have to excuse me for only skimming most of this tread. <P>As I see it, if the rifle is mearly slung on a person's shoulder all day then it makes little difference if weight is shaved from pack contents, rifle, or clothes. On the other hand if the rifle is in a person's hands all day the weight can be more of an issue and it seems nice to have a lighter rifle.<P>For each pound of weight savings, I look at what it will cost me. If upgrading to lighter gear in the daypack will save a pound and costs $200 that may be better than the cost of, say, a new kevlar stock ($300) that would trim a pound off a rifle. <P>On the flip side, when going to a heavier piece of equipment because it's more functional, like larger binoculars, then I'll not only consider the price tag, but also how much it will cost to counterbalance the increased weight. If the new binoculars are 8 ounces heavier than the old ones, I can come up with an identical pack weight for about $100 by upgrading other things. (So those new binoculars cost $100 more than the price tag to me)<P>It seems simple to me, but then again I've been called simple-minded more than once ~chuckle~<P>Cheers,<BR>BH<P>PS Loosing winter fat is worth quite a bit in gear $$$$.

Sitka Deer:<P>I was going to delete my last post, but since you had already replied I thought that I would just add, OK, you might be better than Jesse. LOL<P>I guess I had my grouch hat on this morning, I knew when I started that I should have kept out of this and I will try to remember that lesson in the future.<P>True, it is easier to arrest a vertical fall with your boots, and, in fact, they are about your first and last chance. But, I was referring to a rock/dust/gravel combination, that is something like used ball bearings, and there, most of the time you are using your boots/feet, of course, but sometimes it is better to get lower, so that if you do slip you won't gather momentum so quickly and can grab hold of something. I will agree that you are mostly correct. (Drat!!!) LOL<P>I wish everyone the greatest success hunting this fall, with too much, too little, or just the right amount of weight. Which one of you gets to carry the case of beer in? Does that count as excess weight? Nah.....that is a necessity.

Based on all the responses to this thread, and the "interesting" diatribe, I guess the overall answer to the original post is, you'd be amazed how much of a difference that 1 pound can make!

Well let's do a little observing here on this thread. The majority of the men that live and hunt in Alaska, Montana and various other western states claim that 1 pound does make a difference. The guys in, Texas, MI, and NY tend to all agree with AFP or at least appear to come down on his side of the fence, so to speak. I'm pretty sure one doesn't haven't to be a rocket scientist to draw one's own conclusions. Simple case of experience verses theory.<p>[This message has been edited by Big Sky (edited May 10, 2001).]

Hunting alone weight is crucial in Mtn hunting no options of sharing gear. Amongst<BR>serious sheep hunters there is a saying that the one who goes the lightest wins. Seems to be true. My rifle in 06 weighs 6# 10 ounces and that is about as light as I can go in that caliber without one of those obnoxious muzzle brakes, and still shoot it without proper shoulder support at extreme angles. One pound in a rifle makes a difference to me, if my hunting partner has to much gear he better leave it behind because I wont carry it!! It all ads up 35 to 40# is about all I want to carry up a Mtn, especially after I shoot something.

Don't know if I rank up there with the rest of you ferocious backpacking hunters or if the areas I frequent have nearly as tremedously rugged of terrain, but I like a lightweight rifle. I pretty much wish I could make all my gear a little lighter. I wish mine was lighter and I even also use one of them gunbearers that AFP is seemingly marketing here.<P>But to each thier own if packing a 1-lb heavier rifle is prefered by someone for a purpose then so be it. I do a fair bit of backpack hunting and carry these tanker 10X42 Swaros around my neck everywhere I go... Never will I trade them for a lightweight alternative that has even a minor trade-off in the optical quality. Don't care what anybody thinks if I'm not PC in the backpacker extreme hunting crowds by my choice of equipment either. Those heavy ass binos are the ticket and I've never complained about packing them into and out of hell.

Montanafornia<BR>I'll see you on top, with my heavy-ass Zeiss.<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

I won't mince words about it, I'm on AFP's side. If yall can't understand that he's not putting down your opinions or views on what works for you, then yall are the idiots. As for packing a heavy rifle in rough terrain, I guess someone forgot to tell our servicemen in WWII and Korea that they couldn't negotiate those "hills" with those heavy ass M1's and BAR's. Think about that! If they would've decided that they couldn't carry that much weight what kind of world would we be living in today? Well, I guess they just did what they had to do and if AFP wants to carry his 9# rifle in the mountains and it gets heavy, well guess what he'll just have to deal with it and do what has to be done, that's his choice. As for everyone acting like Montana and Alaska have some horrendus and almost unhuntable mountains I don't know where you get off criticizing AFP after he said he's been to the Rocky's, which by the way, is the tallest mountain range in North America. It seems to me that if AFP carried the weight fine there then he can do it anywhere. Now I know I'm gonna get flamed for this post especially since I'm from Louisiana where it's not rough and all us cajuns and rednecks don't really hunt and that's ok. BTW I'd pay good money to see some of yall "real hunters" in the swamps down here. I'd love to see yall negotiate the flooded timber and see how long it took yall to be lost.........GH

GreenHead,<P>Your right, the swamps down there would kick my butt, and I'd get lost quick! No thanks to that hunt! <P>BTW, the Rockies are called the Brooks Range by the time the continental divide makes it's way to Alaska. They've lost a lot of their height by then too. Actually Alaska has the highest mountian in North America, that being Denali at 20,320ft (some folks insist it's call Mt McKinley.)<P>Doesn't matter much, as a few thousand feet anywhere's is enough to hurt! <P>I'll let the Montanan's fend for themselves! Guess they could mention to us the fact that GM named a <B>mini-van</B> after their great State! <P>Take it easy Folks...<P>------------------<BR>Brian<BR><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/bw_99835/" TARGET=_blank>The 416 Taylor WebPage!</A>

Geez, Big Sky.....<P>You stated that AFP's position was supported by someone from NY....<P>I checked the profiles and I can't find anyone who responded to that thread from NY besides myself...<P>I certainly can't see where my brief post would lead anyone to believe I was taking AFP's side, unless they CHOSE to single me out because my home state is New York..<P>Things were getting a little serious, and I was just trying to lighten things up with a little play on words..<P>Regarding my experience in wilderness hunts, I've hunted Alaska UNGUIDED four times, as well as Colorado twice and New Mexico three times...<BR>Besides THAT, the country I LIVE and HUNT in every year might not be considered mountains, but it ain't exactly FLATLANDS either...<P>I expect I've packed a good bit more meat than YOU on my back over rough country...<P>If your post was not directed at me, let me know...If it was, let me know also, and we'll continue the conversation...<p>[This message has been edited by Pygmy (edited May 12, 2001).]

In the 35 years I have been deer hunting and all the deer I have killed (over 100) I never knew it was all theory and zero experience. I am glad somebody finally straightened that out for me as us PA hunters have no idea how to hunt. LOL<P>I guess all the mountains I have climbed was all theory as well, <P>I will stick with my 9.5lb rifle over a lightweight rifle any day as it is much steadier (for me). <P>I am sad that an individual left as a result of my initial post but at least we have seen some true colors of others and I am now more educated in who to avoid.<P>Don <P> <P>------------------<BR>A 300 Win Mag beats a 30-06 every time

BW,<P>Good post, thanks for realizing I was not talking to you or even about everyone from Alaska or Montana. I also have to agree with you that a couple of thousand of feet anywhere is nothing to sneeze at. As for the swamps down here, they're not really that bad, maybe you could get down here and hunt em sometime.........GH

Man, this bunch of crap reminds me why I hardly ever post on any of the firearms boards anymore. About a year ago, when I got the new computer, all of the info seemed pretty good, compared to the limited boards on Compuserve (about the only thing available with Win 3.1). Unfortunately, it only took a few months to understand that some people cannot accept ANYTHING that goes against their personal beliefs. <P>For crying out loud, don't you people understand that the unbending rejection of "all that I don't believe" is the very reason that we are ALL fighting for the right to keep our precious firearms?<P>This elitist nonsense is the very reason that in the long run WE ARE TOTALLY S****ED! Wake up, gentleman, arguing about 1 lb of rifle weight is ridiculous! If someone says they like heavy rifles, let them carry them, state your OPINION to the contrary, and be done with it. We have far to few friends, to try our damnedest to make enemies!<P>Mac<P>P.S.<P>If I really WANTED to read this kind of nonsense, I'd go over to S****ers!<p>[This message has been edited by blr358 (edited May 12, 2001).]