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We often fish small streams for huge silver salmon in very tight cover with huge flies. We often live and die by the roll cast in tight spots. I often find myself in the position of showing numbers of folks how to roll a weighted size 2 around a log and into a tea cup.

It ain't no place for a 2wt. I would be willing to bet Blacktail knows exactly the sort of place I am speaking of and has probably spent a lot of time doing the same thing. Others here have done it with me. It is light years more difficult than an ordinary roll cast.

I also do a lot of roll casting with light rods, but here is what I have found... Start with a Wulf triangle taper... It is not WF or even DT in profile, but far more gentle in the taper. It allows casting at any distance. A DT is generally considered a better roll castig line than a WF.

If someone thinks they need to overline for roll casting there is a basic disconnect at work. (sorry Sean ) The best way to fix the disconnect is to learn to roll... In tight places and very short roll casts the extra weight may seem to make it easier, but in reality you are trading ease of getting the line moving for reduced accuracy.

Watch Riley gently roll cast 60' time after time after time and it will remind you of the Winston Churchill line "To shoot a good game of pool shows a well-rounded youth; to shoot too good a game of pool shows a misspent youth." Then watch him cast long with a roll...

Interesting debate here in the long vs short and heavy vs light.

To defend one postion in all circumstances, IMHO, is wrong. There's just too many variables in different applications to say one is better than the other.

I lean more towards a longer rod and lighter leaders, generally speaking, than a short one. Line control is much easier with a longer rod, to a point, even in tight quarters. OTOH, too long is a disadvantage in some circumstances.

I tend to use what allows me the best presentation to catch fish and that's the key. Fighting them comes in second until you start talking about very large, very hard fighting fish. Then shorter wins the battle. It gets to a point where hooking a fish becomes secondary to being able to land a fish.


fish head

Gene,

It's obvious that you've never fought a fish on a two handed fly rod, as you are fixated on the wrong component of leverage. The important bit is not the lever arm from butt to effective tip, but from the butt to grip hand.

Here's an example. I've got a fairly good sized reel that I use for both single and double handed rods. Drag is set at ~7 pounds. Now, with a 13' rod, bent while fighting a fish, my effective lever arm is just under 9'. With a single handed 9' rod, effective lever arm length is about 6'.

With the single handed rod, the grip hand is about one foot up from the butt (which is placed on my torso). Double that for the two handed rod

Thus, the force at the grip hand needed to resist a fish with the single handed 9' rod is 6 feet * 7 lbs/1 foot or 42 pounds. Force needed for the double handed rod is 9 feet * 7 pounds /2 feet = 31.5 lbs. Add the fact that I get a huge advantage in being able to direct the force vector to the fish's disadvantage on top of the decrease in force needed, and the longer rod wins the contest every time.

This is assuming that the water you're fishing is compatible with the longer rod. I'd not be to likely to use a 13' rod on a stream 20 feet across. Though there was a Silver hen that was in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Now, given a fixed butt to grip hand measurement, as would be the case for boat rods, I'd give the nod to a shorter rod when it comes to doing winch duty.

Scott

It seems obvious to me that you're missing the point of what I said. But no, I've never fought a fish with a two-handed fly rod. However, I have fought fish with two handed rods, quite a number of times.

The point you missed is the FRONT hand which creates the fulcrum for the REAR hand. Try using a long rod with one hand at the rear of the rod and you'll see what I mean. The further up the rod you place the front hand, the more leverage you can generate, however much putting the rod in danger.

I'm glad you agree that the short rod gets the nod for winch duty, since winching a fish is basic to the function of a rod. Using your term here, it's not one most would chose in describing a rod. And force is important to fighting a fish. Vector is somewhat important, I guess, but the force you apply is directly to the fish is IMO more important OVERALL.

It's harder to protect a tippet with a short rod. Why? BEcause you put more force on it in a shorter distance.

Haven't been playing much, just a little during school. Turns into more time hunting and fishing...

The Scientific Angler's Steelhead taper is about the same as the triangle taper as well, I think. It is designed for roll casting and fishing larger flies while still being able to over head cast extremely well. I have one on the way for my switch rod to make sure this is true, so don't quote me on it (yet).

An over lined rod is easier to spey cast. A spey cast is a roll cast that never touches water until the loop is fully curled out (if done correctly...doesn't always happen ;)). Big difference between a spey cast and a roll cast, and I think this may be where much of the confusion is. In the spey cast the heavier line weight is needed to throw 100' of line with 15 feet of back casting room. For example, I run a 500 grain line with 10' of T-14 (Tungsten core sink tip 14 grains per foot) usually. so 640 grains for a 7/8 weight rod where a regular fly line for a 8 weight rod is about 210 grains.

But to maintain the topic, a single hand spey cast is somewhat easier with a heavier line, but the weight in line you over line to spey cast you hurt yourself in overhead casting. A regular roll cast doesn't have the "D loop" to load the rod so the heavier weight isn't needed like it is for a spey cast. Furthermore, a single hand spey cast isn't needed for small stream fishing because you aren't casting far enough to utilize it.

Riley

Gene,

"What we've got here, is failure to communicate"

You've just restated my point, But you haven't realized it yet. Two handed fly rod = longer distance from butt of rod to grip hand. Thus moving fulcrum closer to fish. Thus reducing fishes leverage against you, even though the rod is longer overall. And since two handed Spey/Switch rods are designed for this, it does not endanger the rod.



Well yes, in that case you would lose leverage. But you'd also have to be not very bright to use your two handed rod like a single handed rod. I certainly wouldn't do it when hooked up to a powerful fish that I really wanted. Would you?

Scott

The original question was about short rods, and my statement was that you get more leverage with a short rod. How this transfered to spey rods, I have no idea, but so far as SHORT (or rods in general) rods go, you shorten the effect of the rod whenever you put your hand further toward the tip.

We gave up on trying to correct you, figured it was a waist of time. Now we are talking about line choices for various rods and how overweight lines are not the answer for roll casting.

A waist of time?

You aren't going to agree with us, so why spend the time to argue?

Good idea. You're absolutely wright, I don't want to waist your thyme.

Semantics..


kinda phun to watch....


Ingwe

Casting well and spelling well seem inversely proportional...

How did you know I couldn't cast worth a krapp..?


Ingwe

Hey! Long time no type. How's it going?

It's ready to go! I put a Cabela's store brand WF 2 weight floater and about 25-30 yards of 20 pound braided backing in a Pfleuger Medalist 1492. Seems like a pretty well balanced setup.

I've only cast it out in the driveway so far. It handles 20-30 feet of line nicely. It's QUICK though, so light it doesn't "load up" gradually, it's just "there".

I went over to Glade Creek and then up Carberry last Saturday hoping to find a fish since those are already open. Water was clear but really cold and running hard, still a lot of snow melt. Think it's 3 weeks too early. Man am I ready for summer to get here.

Tom

PS: regarding 7 foot 3 weight rods, go over to Sportsman's Warehouse and check out the St Croix Avid on the rack. If you don't buy it I may have to. Man that is one sweet little rod.

I bought a TFO Lefty Kreh series 6' 2wt last year and love the little thing. I ran the body count up pretty good last season, but haven't hooked a hog yet.

http://www.templeforkflyrods.com/products/rods/signature.html

IMO it's a darned nice little rod for the money, and I'm not good enough yet to appreciate a $600 rod anyway.

Yeah, LOL.... Sportsman knows me by name now. I've been trolling the fly rods pretty heavy!

I think I'm going to pull the plug on the TFO Professional.
7'6", 3wt, 4 pc and throw the little Okuma SVL reel with RIO Gold wff on it.

It'll see duty in my DB on the Rogue, mostly. I want to get back up to the upper river, above Prospect...etc, and upper Applegate as well. Too much river, not enough time.

I use my old Browning 7' 5wt on everything short of anchors, because I love the way it works. Really want to give a 3wt a whirl!

As a side note: I booked with Gary Lewis, on the Umpqua in July for his smallie trip. 3wt fly rods and ultra light spin outfits.
Hoping to learn a lot and go DIY from then on.

Good typin at cha!

GLADE CREEK!!

Now there's an adventure!! Gotta kick bigfoot outa the way to git to the water!

Four Bit, is another neat place to work that 2wt...and the outlet from Willow, while your in that country. I used to do well at each years ago.

The Lil Applegate was a hoot too, till one of my pard's mentioned that it's "closed" to fishing....! It was like casting in a tunnel and real peaceful.....Haa!