Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Question about firefroming AI cartridges

Yesterday I was shooting some fireforming loads for my 257AI. Usually, I use a 117 or 120gr bullets with 4064 or 4895. This time I decided to use some 100 gr SpeerBT's that were sitting on the shelf. The lead on the rifle is pretty long so the bullets were just barely seated in the end of the case when they were loaded to contact the rifling.

Most loads worked fine, but on a couple fo them the rifle misfired. I re-cocked and it fired the 2nd time. The case shoulder is not shart. Looks almost like a Weatherby radious shoulder.

I assume what happened is the rifling pushed the bullet deeper into the case so that there was no pressure to hold the case against the bolt face.

Question is: Do I have a headspace problem with this case, and is it therefore dangerous, or is it safe to use.

I know, next time I'll use longer bullets! Thaks in advance for the help. Jim

I always fire form with full house loads. I load my full Ackley charge in regular brass and shoot away. Mine is very accurate and the brass is blown out to Ackley capacity long before full pressure is achieved anyway so there is no increase in pressure. Never lost a brass or had one fail to form. What is dangerous is using reduced loads. It could have a case detonation or have a bullet stick in the barrel fooling around with reduced charges. I would only do the bullet into the lands if the chamber is too long to get a proper fit on the shoulder. Still rather than seat into the rifling I would rather neck up and then only neck down far enough to firmly chamber the brass. A false shoulder so to speak. This is an Ackley and it is supposed to be able to fire factory ammo. Only a true wildcat needs to take the extra step of forming brass. Before I read the Ackley books I used to do it the way you are. I split a lot of brass and had a near head separation a couple times. If your brass fits tight in your chamber I would hit it again.

thanks for the reply, HG. These were full power loads, not reduced. Guess I'll take your advice and try again. I'm assuming, unless someone corrects me, that the cases in question are probably short on headspace and will need to have the bullets touching the lands.

What sort of velocity were you getting. I have found they need to go 3000+ to ensure full forming in my 25-06AI. I load at 3550 now with 100 grain bullets to form. I would hit them again. If they split it shouldn't hurt anything. I have broke lots of brass over the last 25 years without ill effects. Wear some shooting glasses if your unsure at all.

Usually the AI chamber is cut to minimum depth to insure standard ammo will form. If a standasrd chamber is converted
the chamber will require somthing to hold the case against the bolt face. One other method is to oil the case when fireforming. The primer (not the firing pin) pushes the case forward, oiling the case will allow it to come back against the
bolt and fill out the forward (neck/shoulder) part.
Good luck1

I`ve a number of AI`s on various actions. In talking with my smith, chambers are cut so factory ammo could be used in a pinch, so your chamber should be cut accordingly. I would call your smith to afirm this fact. Head space should be at neck/shoulder junction. Now, that beeing said, all factory or virgin brass is not created the same. Each case can have a different length, so a few may be pushed in to the chamber, causing difficult ignition. Recocking and trying again should not hurt anything. I would not lube my cases during the fireforming process, but thats me.
I also load a max load of the "standard" case when forming brass. Depending on the cartridge, you should have some % of error becouse of the improved case, so overloading will not occure.
You didn`t mention if you had recut an existing chamber.
And I`m "assuming" virgin brass??
Again, I would check the setup with my smith..

Fire-form with
� pistol primers
� small charges of fast powder (a lot cheaper than large charges and bullets!)
� inert filler (ditto)
� and NO bullets! � ever!

1. Prime the cases with pistol primers (easier to ignite, less powerful).

3. Lube the cases with case lube (Imperial sizing-die wax is the best that I've tried).

3. Charge each of a few cases with about 10-12 grains of Bullseye for the first try. (Increase the charge by small increments if the shoulders don't form fully sharp.)

4. Lightly tamp a tightly wadded � sheet of toilet paper onto the powder charge. Don't omit this step.

5. Fill the case to the mouth with Cream of Wheat, Instant Ralston, corn meal, or the like (not flour).

6. Smear sealant (bullet lube, Vaseline, paper disc, e g, in the mouth of the case.

7. Insert the case under the extractor (Mauser) or into the chamber. Close the bolt.

8. Point the rifle straight up. (You don't even have to shoulder it. "Recoil" is negligible.) Fire.

9. Repeat � with a slightly heavier charge of the same powder if these first-try loads don't form the shoulders fully sharp.

You can do this anywhere that you can get away with making the noise. (In your basement, for example.) No need to go to the range.

.

Plus, if you use the proper filler you can make your own Quaker Puffed Rice cereal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(Some of you probably are not old enough to remember the slogan "This is the cereal that's shot from guns" sung to the tune of the 1812 Overture.).

"� and NO bullets! � ever!"
well I gotta ask now.. since the basis of ackleys program was chambers you could still shoot factory ammo in, and those have bullets, and they fireform just fine, why not bullets, ever?

I have tried light loads with bullets, and factory rounds in my 280 ackleys and they both do just fine, fact is even with backpressure from light loaded rounds, sometimes I get a rounded shoulder.

I'd think that the answer to this question would be obvious and the question totally unnecessary. Using the system that I've described, bullets are not only unnecessary but downright dangerous to boot. They'd boost the peak pressures far beyond either safe levels or the level that you need to fire-form the cases. Got it?

But go ahead and seal those inert-filler fire-forming loads with bullets if you like, and you'll see (if those flying shards of receiver leave you alive, with an eye and a brain cell still working, more or less) why bullets are dangerous with this system. Just don't shoot 'em when I'm there, please.

Your ball, your call, your rifle, your health.

.

I'm with you podner. Besides who wants all that Cream of Wheat and Vaseline all over the basement?

It seems that somebody doesn't have a problem of spending precious time to go to a range, put up with all of the cease fires and range officer quirks, not to mention boringly firing at targets with a load that your not going to use anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I do my fireforming with 75 grain V-Max's going 3900 fps while varmint shooting. Nothing is wasted with this method. The cream of wheat method sounds a lot like sex without a partner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It may be, but in this case your barrel will last longer.

Ken:
What happens if you omit the paper--incomplete burn? I left it out on the last batch but formed OK. Used 17g unique.

I use the same method Ken uses, including the Cream of Wheat. It works very well and it is the best thing that you can do with Cream of Wheat.

Wouldn't there be a difference in case dimensions, headspace? , betwixt cases fired with reduced loads, and cases fired with full powered loads, requiring another step, before you have actual "once fired" cases? Honest question.
Smitty of the North

I seem to remember a shooter can use a "bullet" made of Ivory soap, by pressing the loaded case into the soap bar, thus plugging it with a "bullet". ~~~Suluuq

The case forms fully at a much lower peak pressure, long before the pressure of a full load reaches its peak. So there's no need to use high-pressure loads to form your cases. If 10,000 or less does it, there's no need to load to 60,000. Fully formed is fully formed.

I've formed cases for my .35 Whelen with water in an old hydraulic case-former. The guy who made the rig put a very small hole in the side (to vent trapped air, possibly), and cases came out with a tiny "wart" formed into that hole, and the tool marks inside the die had imprinted the case.

.

Thank you Mr. Howell

If you follow Ken's instructions you'll have perfectly formed brass every time. It doesn't make sense to launch expensive bullets downrange until you have your cases formed and are working up a real load. I've used Ken's method for forming .35 Apex (how many of you have heard of that one?) from .300 Win. Mag. cases and I'm telling you it's simply the best way to go.