Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles custom rifle

i have been thinking about having a custom rifle built, and i have a question, or 2.<P>the gunsmith i would take it to said he'd build it on any action i wanted, but he reccomended the brno action. i have never even seen a brno. anybody have any experience w/ this action?<P>2nd question is about the stock. i prefer wood stocks, darker woods. i have seen some really nice walnut stocks, but being a custom gun, am thinking of going something a little more exotic...i have never handled a bastogne stock before, so i have never seen one up close and personal. is bastogne as pretty up close as the pics seem to show it? how does it compare to the various walnuts? this stuff is really expensive, so to justify the cost it needs to be mind-blowing.<P>------------------<BR>Hunting is not a matter of life or death. It is much more important than that.

big time<BR>I have no comments on the brno action, they do not do it for me, but that has a lot to do with the fact that I have never dealt with them much.<P>Take a look at how your gunsmith makes trasitions around the action. Various actions are different as to how they look when the shaping accentuates various points on the action. Look and see if that is what you like or not. <P>What caliber are you looking at, and what weight rifle are you shooting for? Does it recoil much? After you figure those things out you can get a bit serious about choosing a blank.<P>I have been building Walnut stocks for quite some time and love nothing quite so much as a classic rifle stocked in rich black marbled walnut.<P>Any walnut will make a fine stock from the standpoint of strength, but it will be the other design considerations that will help you decide what you want.<P>Black walnut pretty enough to justify what you seem to want in a stock is rare, but the least expensive option. It will most often be flame or feather figure, cut from a crotch. The wood will be darker and more uniformly so than the other varieties/species.<P>English walnut in all its many variations (french, turkish etc.) is typically denser and tighter grained than the black. It can be as pretty as you can afford, light lemon yellow to black.<P>Claro is the native CA walnut and is more like black than english. It tends to be highly figured and has gorgeous pink highlights.<P>Bastogne is a hybrid cross between Claro and english. It is usually regarded as being extremely tough for its weight. It is very close-grained. Having a little trouble finding the right words to describe it generally. It is not my favorite, but I have seen some incredible sticks of the stuff. have seen some that seemed "muddy" in color with even some green highlights, but it will vary from tree to tree. It is commonly regarded as the right wood for heavy recoiling guns.<P>If you want something really wild take a look at myrtle. It has great strength and weight characteristics and can be unmatchable for looks. It is not a dark colored wood, but if you see a really nice stick of it, you will be thinking hard about it.<BR>hope this helps<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Big time:<P>Sitka Deer pretty well summed up the walnut characteristics for you. Bastogne tends, not written in stone, to be a little heavier and have somewhat less spectacular figure than other walnuts, which it is a walnut wood, as SD pointed out.<P>Unless you are going to stock the rifle yourself, or unless you have a very inexpensive gunsmith, the cost of the wood, unless you buy exhibition Turkish walnut, will be substantially less than the cost of the stocking. About the cheapest I have found that someone will stock, finish and checker one for is around $750, not including the cost of the blank, and that is extremely cheap, I would question the quality of the work, unless I examined it myself. Most of the time, it is at least a $1000 and can be several times that. One of several reasons that many people choose quality synthetics for their rifles. To do it right is very time consuming and is a skill that not any guy with a piece of sandpaper can master. There are several custom stock makers here in Texas that just do not have the level of skill that I think they should to sell their work to others. But I am picky and expect top quality work for my stocks. Don't ask, I am not naming names. If you can't tell by looking, get someone who can to help.<P>As far as other woods, such as myrtle, maple,cherry, some of the exotic South American or African woods, it is your gun, but I find that people's tastes tend to change over the years, and I have never met anyone that did not still admire a well figured and well executed walnut stock, the more classic in design the better. Choosing walnut will also serve you well if at some time you should decide to sell or trade it on something else. Anyone who buys and sells guns will tell you that they discount any stock besides walnut, because it is much harder to find a buyer for. Good luck. CAT<BR>

thanks for the input, guys. appreciate it.<P>i am pretty set on chambering to 7 rem mag. as far as weight goes, i haven't seriously considered that. i guess that however heavy it ends up being is how heavy it will be. don't plan on making it a mountain rifle per se, if that is what you are asking. i don't want it ridiculously heavy, either.<P>i am aware that woodwork is expensive. my 'smith said that it would about double the price of the gun to get the wood done vs. synthetic. i have seen a couple rifles he has done, and a sXs shotgun, and the woodwork is as flawless as my amateur eyes can tell. one was built on a 700 action, the other a mauser.<P>another question: i have never handled a crf rifle. what are the drawbacks of a crf vs push feed?<P>i wanted to go custom, basically, for the wood quality aspect and accuracy of the rifle. i really like wood stocks, and some rifles have the prettiest wood on them. i am not 100% set on stock design, but i am pretty sure i do not want a monte carlo style. seems that a rifle w/o the cheekpiece really shows nice clean lines and looks very classy.<P>do you have any ideas where i can see pictures of the various wood stocks? the pictures i have seen are of english, claro, and bastogne. haven't seen myrtle or black walnut.<P>as for the tube...i am thinking 24-26" pac-nor. i am not set on mfgr. i wanted a longer barrel as i am not overly concerned w/ snap shooting, and my hunting is done in fairly flat, open spaces. shots can be short to too long for me, and everything in between.<P>i am sure i'll have 1000's of questions as this project gets closer to commissioning.<P>oh...flies: i am absolutely aware of what goes into shaping and forming wood...i pulled my savage apart, and TRIED to rework the stock (why not? it's an ugly stock to begin w/, and i was sure i wouldn't make it worse). i got the stock so that it no longer felt like grabbing onto the big end of a baseball bat, and tried to establish a grip cap on it. at any rate, i am sure you wouldn't buy one of my stocks!!! but, i didn't make it any worse looking, and it functions better...

I don't have a direct link, but for some decent pictures of different kinds and grades of walnut go to <A HREF="http://www.nesika.com--great" TARGET=_blank>www.nesika.com--great</A> actions BTW--and go to their links page, scroll down, and hit Great American Gunstocks, then peruse their site, but in particular look at the 14 pages or so of bargain stocks, which will give you some idea of the differences. You can also access same site at varmint hunters. org site. You could save enough money to have 2 rifles for the price of one by using one of the excellent laminated stocks and finishing it yourself. But it sure wouldn't be as pretty as nice walnut. <P>My opinion, in order of toughness, everything else being equal, which it never is with a piece of wood, English and Bastogne would tie, Black, then Claro. Claro has a somewhat more open and wilder grain than the others, makes for some beautiful figure, but is more difficult to checker and probably not quite as strong. You often see Claro in hi grade .22 stocks, old hi grade Kimbers for example.<P>In order of beauty, very tough, but the best English, French, Turkish, Circassian, which is all the same species is untouchable, in quality and price. Then really good Black and Claro would tie, with eye appeal probably leaning toward Claro. And finally bastogne for the reasons previously discussed. But these are all generalizations and any one piece of any species may be completely the opposite of its "type".

Will second just about everything if it flies says. Might restate that the prettiest black walnut blanks are almost always from crotch figure and tend to be denser than ordinary black walnut from other parts of the same tree. It can make a big difference in finished weight.<P>I would suggest that it would be really important for you to decide what you want the rifle to weigh as early as possible in the process because that will help you pick most of your components.<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

CAT<BR>Thanks for the link to those stocks, I had not seen it before. Some very pretty stuff there!<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

big time,<P>I don't know a whole about stocks except that I know what looks good to my eyes. If you're building a 7mm mag then any of the aforementioned walnuts will certainly have no problem standing up to the recoil. To my eyes Turkish is about the best walnut going today. <P>That being said I don't think I'd spend the money to stock a rifle in good walnut unless it was a rifle I would be proud of. You mentioned the difference between CRF and the others. Basically a CRF rifle is the older type design being based on the Mauser 98. Newer CRF rifles are the winchester M70, Ruger 77, and all the modern mauser copies. The other side of the coin is the push feeds, rem 700, sako 75, 1965-1993 winchester M70's, savages, and a few others. The difference between the two is that the CRF actions pick up the cartridge from the magazine and guide it into the chamber whereas the push feeds just push the cartridge in front of the bolt until it's in the chamber. Much more detailed descriptions are available but to sum it up I wouldn't spend the kind of money you're talking about to put a fancy stock on a push feed rifle, it just ain't right. Push feeds have their place but they aren't in the arena of high dollar rifles, they should be kept in the plastic stock, low budget arena. They will work fine but just lack the necessary class to build a fine rifle upon. If you're going to spend a lot of money to build a nice rifle then use a mauser 98 or a winchester M70 as a starting point.

Big Time,<BR>You were wondering about the BRNO actions .... I have an old one, a Model 21, in 7x57mm. It is easily my favorite rifle ... very smooth, strong action, and meticulous workmanship. "Pygmy" has a new CZ-550 on the way (9.3x62mm), same family as the BRNO. You might want to check with him to see what he thinks of the newer production models. I haven't seen one, yet. Good luck with your project.

I think you should decide first if you want a rifle that is designed to please you,or one that is a real bragging piece.There is nothing wrong with either approach,and in many of the details it will make no difference,but it is important to have one guiding principle.

Not much to add to what has already been stated. A few general comments on custom guns may be helpful.<P>Never try to go cheap on a custom, the reason you want to get a custom is that you want something special, and unique. Do whatever it takes to get the funds to do it right, even if it includes waiting another year, which will be a good thing as it'll allow you the time to research smiths. To get what you want, you will have to pay for it, and if you cut corners, you won't get what you were after when you first set out on the project, likely won't be happy with the results, and will end up selling the rifle at a loss, and then spending the additional money that would have made it right the first time on its replacement.<P>As was noted, what you are describing is a fine classic custom rifle, and they are always built on CRF actions, typically converted military M98 mausers or M70 winchesters, but no reason a modern M98, which the BRNO is can't be used as a basis.<P>I don't want to start the crf push feed war, but here are some things to consider. Push feeds were designed solely to cut manufacturing costs, and the resulting designs coincidentally make them easier to accurize. You will here comments about push feeds being more accurate, but those who say such have nothing to back up their comments with, I'm not talking competition guns, but hunting rifles. Yes, the competition shooters use CRF's, because they are easier to accurize, and so everyone uses them. You are not building a competition gun, you are building a hunting rifle. Sadly, many folks don't know the difference, and carry over things that are good for the bench, but not best fo for the field. A properly built crf will be every bit as accurate as a push feed. It simply requires a little bit more effort to get the end result. <P>The plus side of the CRF is that it is a more durable, reliable, and user servicable in adverse conditions, by design. Yes, there are junky CRF's being manufactured, but by design, it is superior. <P>Finally, put some effort into researching multiple gunsmiths and stock makers. Perhaps you'll end up having one person do the metalwork, and another do the woodwork. There are darn few smiths in the country that are capable of both. Your smith may be one of those rare few, but go to the effort of educating yourself on what a fine custom is, and what makes one such. You are looking at an exspensive rifle, certainly in the $3-5k range, possibly more. <P>One last thing, brush up on different polishiing and bluing techniques, and what the results are. Different blues call for different polishes, and end up with different results. You would due well to consider a true slow rust blue on the rifle.

I'm not going to get started on this, and I have and like both kinds, but all that hooey about no classic custom rifles being built on a push feed gun is just that, hooey. Unless you choose to define classic as only CRFs. Then you could use antique and classic interchangeably, I suppose. As a matter of fact, I am certain that many more customs are built on push fed actions, specifically 700s, than on CRF's, why, because they usually shoot more accurately, first shot, every shot.<P>Second, unless you are going to build a gun, chambered and specifically designed for hunting dangerous game, all that stuff about CRF being tougher, more reliable, more durable, etc is just more stuff. For Pete's sake, are you going to war, or hunting? Darn, I forgot to have that bayonet lug installed on that last rifle. The Marine Corps uses pushes(700s) for its sniper rifles and has since, '67, I think, in Viet Nam, is that enough endorsement?<P>Finally, no one can make a CRF as accurate ON AVERAGE as push feeds for a variety of reasons, which are demostrated day in and day out by the almost exclusive use of pushes when someone wants a long range accurate rifle. Even Winchester uses pushes for its long range weapons today.<P>If anyone really thinks that CRF are as accurate as pushes, well, you take your CRF action, I'll take my push, we'll both pick a good smith who works on both,use the same caliber, the same make barrels, same weight,same stock, same everything, and I'll bet my push against your CRF that mine will shoot better. On a one on one deal like that, I might lose, but the odds are heavily in my favor. <P>I'm going to finish where I started, I like CRFs own some, and will own more, I hope, (just missed a Brno 21H, drat the luck), but don't think that CRF is a necessity or anything like it. If you want an extremely accurate long range hunting rifle, you will almost certainly be better off with a push.<P>I have shot 1000's of shots thru pushes, often, in rapid sequence when the barrel was too hot to hold, and have yet to have a failure to feed or extract/eject. I was probably lucky. I haven't shot that much with a CRF but I haven't had one of them break either. Point is, decent rifles of either design don't break very often.<P>Choose what action you want on other considerations, not just history.

I knew I'd end up kicking up some dust with that post, not the intent.<P>Now lets just step back and look at what the original poster asked about, a blued steel wood stocked custom hunting rifle. He didn't say he wanted a customized accurized rifle, but a classic hunting rifle by the his description, though not choice of words. <P>As far as the accuracy deal, I'd put up a David Miller M70 against any custom M700. I don't want to use the same smith for the comparision, make it fair, use a smith who knows the M70, and one that knows the M700, they won't necessarily be the same man. I have never seen a published test comparing a customized M70 to a customized M700 in regards to accuracy, and believe it is simply a mith the M700 is vastly superior in accuracy. A 100 year old mil surp swede mauser can shoot with, and often times better then most new factory rifles.<P>Do you seriously believe it isn't possible for a properly assembled CRF to consistantly hit a clay pidgeon at 400 yds? Does one need more accuracy then this, or can one realize more accuracy then this consistantly in the field? Will the 700 stretch it out to 600 yds, or 800, or 1000, and might not a good CRF match that? Remember, field conditions, not a target range with wind flags.<P>As far as the action type not mattering, I don't buy that either. If one is looking for the least exspensive way to shoot small groups, they use a 700 and a plastic or laminated would stock. When you talk about a handmade wood stock, you are looking at the larger picture, a gun that becomes an extension of you, and is a joy to behold. The conclusion is always a CRF action. One must look beyond simple mechanical accuracy when putting together a custom classic hunting rifle. There may be many many more M700 actions that are customized, but quantity and quality are not always the same. If you look at fine wood stocked customs, then the numbers sharply tilt in favor of M70's and M98's. <P>Personally, just because the game isn't dangerous doesn't mean I don't want an action that has a bolt with the handle welded on, or the most solid method of feeding, extracting and ejecting all my rounds. In addition, if I were to be unfortunate enough to have to field strip the gun, I want one that will allow this w/o the use of special tools. Heck, the trigger on the M70 alone is vastly superior to the contraption on the M700, for hunting use.<P>Just because one chooses to ignore the very real, though not easily quantified advantages of a CRF, does not mean that they do not exist. <P>I have never heard of a case in the field where the difference, if any, between the accuracy of CRF and push feed caused a miss, or wounded and lost animal.<P>Conversely, I have heard more then one story of bolt handles coming off in the field, actions freezing up, and cases failing to extract and eject in the field with the M700, and these problems have caused the loss of game due to not providing a needed follow up shot. <P>

Now you see why you should decide at the outset who you are going to try to please.The idea that it should be a crf is ridiculous,as is the idea that it wont be a custom rifle unless you spend at least 3 grand on it.<P>Make your own rules about it and follow them.you'll be happy with the result. <P>

Just counted up my CRF custom rifles and my push-feeds. Split them almost down the middle. I tend to find an action and go from them and do not really care in the slightest about whether or not it is CRF.<P>That said, my push-feeds will all out-shoot my CRF guns. They all are above average or they would not be there still.<P>There are some better looking aspects to a mauser action, but that is, IMHO a result of history impinging on taste.<BR>art<P>------------------<BR>Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

I'm not going to re hash that thread any more, but if you really want to put your David Miller( a fine riflesmith, btw) m70s custom up against any 700 custom, then we'll bet rifle against rifle, and any number of thousands you wish on the side. Let me know when and I'll arrange for a match. Should make the basis for a good article in all those magazines that a lot of people seem to denigrate.<P>

wow...thanks for the responses guys, i learned quite a bit here and now, more than i thought i would. much appreciated, all of it.<P>as far as the rifle goes, i have a clear picture in my mind of what it will look like when it's done (this is something i learned to do w/ my musclecars b4 the project started to avoid certain disaster). 458lott is right about me wanting a classic hunting rifle. i don't want a 1000 yard gun (but will take it if it turns out that way!), but i do expect accuracy out to the 400-500 yard area.<P>i asked about the feed type as i have never dealt w/ crf. i was just looking for pro/con of crf. my smith tells me that there are so many 700 based customs around because the 700 action is round and therefore easy to make look good/work with. i have no idea how true this is, but it is what he tells me. his own personal rifles are crf. as far as needing it for dangerous game, that is not this rifles intended use. it will be hunted, and it will be displayed like the piece of art that i expect it to be.<P>again, thanks much for the input. certainly open to hearing more.<P>thank you for the link, flies! nice looking stuff there.<P>------------------<BR>Hunting is not a matter of life or death. It is much more important than that.

BigTime, here is a link to another source of stocks. I got their wildcat stock in lamiate and it really turned out nice. <P><A HREF="http://www.reamerrentals.com/elkridge2.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.reamerrentals.com/elkridge2.htm</A><BR>tom<p>[This message has been edited by pumpgun (edited May 25, 2001).]

As you're from South Dakota, have you thought about checking out the wood supply at Dakota Arms? They're in the Rapid City area, and they have a large supply of blanks of both Claro and English, as I recall. When I made my rifle, I stopped there on a Sunday afternoon (the owner and his wife even came out and opened the shop just for me!). I was able to sort through the blanks and select the ones I wanted. A great opportunity to get exactly what you want. PS - if yo go, wear old clothes and bring gloves! You'll get real dirty sorting through the wood.

white owl: i haven't been to dakota arms, even though i am in sturgis about every other month...i do have their catalogs, and i have talked to them over the phone. i am exploring options right now, and they are certainly an option. nice folks there, too.<P>------------------<BR>Hunting is not a matter of life or death. It is much more important than that.