Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles I Need a Trigger

Sorry if this topic has been beat to death, but here goes. I would like to install a new trigger on my 6.5 Grendel. I know nothing about AR triggers except that they run from a few bucks to over $300.

So, what do you guys recommend for an AR trigger? Money is an option and I would like to keep it under $200.

Thanks

I use Rock River Arms NM 2 stage triggers but if I were buying another one, I'd buy a Geisselle SSA trigger. It's the cheaper model and is non adjustable, sells for about $170, while the adjustable version runs $250 or so. Keep in mind that I've never used either but reports from people I trust are positive.

Thanks TWR, I appreciate it. OK, dumb question #2, what is difference between a Two stage and a single stage and what are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Well, since nobody else has said anything yet, I'll offer an opinion. Keep in mind that I've only had an AR for about one year so I am NOT an expert.

A two stage trigger has a first step where you take up the slack in the trigger until you reach the "stop". I think this first stage is usually about 3.7-ish pounds and the second stage is set to 1.0 pounds so that you can establish the proper sight picture and any further pull will release the hammer. On match rifles the minimum pull weight is 4.5 pounds whereas the single stage trigger that came with my AR was at about 7.2 pounds if I was doing the measurement correctly.

I have a Rock River AR and recently upgraded the trigger from single stage to a RRA NM 2 stage trigger and I love it. In my somewhat limited knowledge, single stage triggers are mainly for SHTF fast action shooting scenarios and also for plinking. The 2 stage trigger is absolutely required if you wish to do any accuracy type shooting. In other words, if you want to go to Camp Perry and shoot competitively, you will really want to have the 2 stage trigger. I also reload so being able to accurately fire the AR each time helps in determining which loads work the best in my gun.

Like I said, I'm still a rookie but I hope this helps a little.

Actually the 2 stage can have almost any weight on either stage, its how its setup. On the AR 15 platform for a 2 stage trigger, being semi auto, about the lightest total weight you can go safely is 3.5 pounds, generally 2.5 on the first stage, a stop and then 1.0 pounds to fire the shot.

Takes some getting used to but not bad. I had never shot one in 1989... now its all I have on my ARs..

PErsonally most people are not as picky on triggers...I'd buy a tuned RRA from White Oak Precision and have a good trigger and save some money at the same time.

As far as a 2 stage being"slow" as a rapid fire trigger, I only use aimed fire, but can get upwards of 40 hits on a silhouette target with iron sighted AR15, at 600 yards, in a time exposure of 50 seconds, including a mag change... thats fast enough for me.

Eventually, I hope to reach that point but I've got a long way to go yet. I'm just going to enjoy the time I spend in getting there.

Good explanation AlaskaFE, the only thing I'll add is the stock single stage trigger is said to be more reliable than any aftermarket trigger. This might be true for Colt and possibly a few other brands but I've seen more bad stock triggers than 2 stage triggers. Bushmaster had a bad run at one time, lots of doubles...

Most problems on stock come from the companies trying to make a single stage designed trigger into a great or much better trigger and doing dumb things to get there, had they stuck to just reproducing the standard trigger to spec, life would have been fine. Or redesign a complete setup as many have done.

Just like those that espouse the souped up stock ones... they'll all end up with doubling guns eventually.

If you are used to a good trigger from bolt guns, I would get a single stage like a Jard, 2 or 3# trigger.


I purchased a complete gun w/ a 2# Jard, just removed most of the creep the Gunsmith added..... and it breaks at 2# 4 oz consistantly. plenty good for most people, I am getting used to my 8 oz Jewell and a 1.5# shilen on 2 rem 700 varmint rigs.


One thing, besides an excellent Beeman air rifle, I never liked 2 stage triggers, and don't see an advantage to having one on an AR. I'll have to try a 2 stage with the second set at 1# before condeming them, though. If I have to pull 3 or 4# to get to 1#, i'll take the single stage 2#.......

Allen

But the 1 pound is less than your 2-3 pounds...... Its really all in getting used to it, and it doesn't take much to get used to it...

But then again I have yet to pull a single stage AR trigger that was creep free and crisp that was ALSO safe. If you could get to that I could understand it. Haven't seen it safe yet, and your smith had that creep in there most likely for a reason... not because he wanted it that way. Light single stage in an AR has been a disaster waiting to happen unless something changed that I"m not aware of and that is completely possible.

Also, a light single stage could be very prone to double simply between the shooter and the light recoil and sear engagement all at the same time. Where as a 2 stage trigger almost totally guarantees you won't or can't double the gun.

Interesting points.


But... Your first stage is the equivalent of my creep, which is at most .005" on mine, yours is like .060" I assume..... and 3# plus. I have not shot it set this way more than 3 x, and I loaded just one extra in the mag to reduce a burst of 10 rds....lol


Not sure why 3# of creep and then a light break is better than 2# of a smaller amount of creep... guess I'd have to feel it to decide. Mine releases at the same point every time, yours does also but you need that 3# plus travel to get to your 1# letoff, which I suspect feels like no creep before the break?


Thanks for the input to my question


Allen

The reason its better is that its no where like creep, you only apply 3 pounds of pressure to load the trigger and it comes to a complete firm, hard STOP... you have to get past taht point in your head. Now that you've pre loaded it, you do whatever you want to, readjust aim etc..... now that you are ready, its just like a bolt gun trigger NO creep, glass rod break on the sear release and half the weight of what you have.

Even though I'll argue that 2 pounds on a single stage will get you some issues at some point eventually.

You have to remember, I've shot in competition since 89, going through around 8-10K rounds of live ammo a year, plus dry fire plus rimfire practice and usually a couple of cases of cheaper practice 223 ammo. That was until 2003. I didn't like 2 stage at all when I started. I now realize that it is by far the best choice for the AR platform. While I do have single stage on my bolt guns, I've also shot light 2 stage triggers on bolt guns, and they work fine there but I'm not overly sure why to use those, other than running a bolt gun in rapid fire is some movement to the gun, and it could go off with a couple oz single stage but wouldn't with a few ounces on each stage of a 2 stage.

I love my Geisselle, pronunced Guys Lee so his daughter told me. mine is 2# on the first stage and 14 oz on the second and breaks like glass. it is by far the best I have used in the ar platform. the RR two stage is much better than standard and for the avg shooter it wont break the bank....MY 2 cents

If you have the money, Bills trigger is it. I have done a lot of shooting with him and talking about the trigger and how teh M14 was a better trigger, and he reworked the design and its superb. Thats for sure. Has to be adjusted right and all but beyond that its the best of the best. And they all have to be adjusted right.

I'll have to try one to understand how it goes from 3#, then STOP and after that a lighter pull weight. I lost my Beeman to my son, so I don't have the 2 stage to compare at the table like I have on the 8 oz Jewell vs Canjar vs 1.5# Sheilen and then the AR.


All I know is using a bipod and sighting on a telephone pole insulator about 75 yds out back, the little creep the Jard AR has "allows" me a slight take-up, and then breaks well, all at 2# + a few oz..... I could see hunting offhand could be a problem, but I am a firm believer in #3 for offhand shooting at big game where conditions are not ideal.


Thanks again for the additional input, I am sure if I shot as much as you did, I would come to the same conclusion. Friends with toys to try are a good thing. My pocket book is glad I have few AR shooting buds.

Allen

There has been a lot of good discussion here, so I will take it into another direction.

First off, let me just say that my Match AR (spacegun) has a Geissele trigger. It's an early one, (3 digit serial) and I've had it for 4 years now. It's 2 stage and I have set it for 2 pounds on the first stage and a few ounces on the second stage. I would never set a hunting rifle this way.

My NM AR has the 2 stage Armalite match trigger and it is set for a total of 4.75 pounds. It's very nice, but it's not the Geissele, nor is it meant to be.

Beyond just the feel of the trigger, the Geissele brings in another aspect of a trigger group; reduced lock time. Just so we are all on the same sheet of music, lock time is defined as the interval between the tripping of the trigger and the detonation of the primer from the firing pin hitting it. The longer the lock time, the more the rifle moves after you have released the trigger.

A bolt action rifle has a lock time between 2 and 4 millisecond. An AR-15 has a lock time beyond 12 milliseconds, that hammer has a long way to go to hit the firing pin. The Geissele boasts an enhanced hammer a "speed hammer" designed to cut down the lock time of the AR. It is about 8ms with the Geissele, still not bolt-action territory, but much better than other AR-15 triggers. When I shoot F-class with my AR, I want the rifle to fire exactly when I squeeze the trigger. The Geissele does two things for me; I pull through the first stage and hold there as I finalize my aim, then I merely think about firing and the second stage is so light and nice, the trigger trips at that exact time. With the reduced lock time, the rifle moves less as the primer is hit by the firing pin.

In fact, you cannot see that I have tripped the trigger, in dry firing exercize, your only clue would be the noise.

Read Denys(FTR) post... it has great info as usual too...

As to the creep in your trigger now... hell for all aspects you are shooting a two stage trigger right now but telling me you don't like 2 stage... if you were shooting a real single stage, there would be NO movement before it broke....

Curious how you get a single stage trigger to have NO movement to set it off?


Sorry for going off topic, I am curious what single stage trigger has NO movement to function.

I'm of the openion that the nicest trigger I've ever seen or had for and AR is the trigger that Accuracy Speaks has. They seem to work even after the barrel get shot out and replaed a few times. I think they are the best thing going in my AR's. They did not charge me a cent for putting them in either. That was some years ago.

Here, you make up your own mind.

Here's a pretty good review of several triggers without being an advertisement for any of them.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=12170

If you want the most relaible, then I'd look at what the military is using in its DMR and SPR rifles when more than a score is on the line, that'd be the Geisselle that is replacing the KAC 2 stage.