Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only .458 Win Mag Marlin 1895 cowboy

A couple of things, JR.

First, I assume you meant Accurate 2460. If so, QL shows a max charge of that at 64 grains and 32k PSI (the max spec for the .45-70). And, velocity is only estimated at 2260, NOT 2660 fps (which is what you'd need t propel a 300 grain bullet out with a ME of 4700). BTW - that's with the case lengthened to 2.4" and the COAL set at 2.85", out of a 26" barrel.

So, I'll assume that you're loading WAY over max. That, or your math is off.

But, JFSAG, let's assume that you could chuck a 300 grain .458" JHP at 2660. BC of the Hornady version is 0.197, so let's use that as a basis.

A quick look at JBM shows (for a 5" vital zone) a 241 yard zero, and 280 yard MPBR. Retained energy at 300 is 1477 ft/lbs, and you're at -2.7MOA from your zero. At 350, you're down to 1200 ft/lbs, and at -5.4MOA. 400 yards, you've got 988 ft/lbs, and you're -8.6MOA

Assuming the same pressure required to get you to 2660 via the 2.4" case, and using the 2.1" case to acheive the same COAL of 2.85" with an RCBS 45-405 cast to 425 grains (standard, in QL), it will have a nominal BC of about .303. Let's use that...

Initial starting velocity would be somewhere around 2225. Zero range is 221 yards, with an MPBR of 260 yards. 20 whole yards difference in favor of the 300 grain slug. Hmmm... Oh, btw - the energy level would be the same.

Retained energy at 300 is 2140 ft/lbs, and drop is -4.0MOA. At 350, it's retaining 1868 ft/lbs, and at -6.9MOA... 400, still 1635 ft/lbs, and -10.1MOA.

Start them both on even zero range footing by zeroing at 230 yards (10 yards close for your 300; 10 yards long for the 425), and they are dead even on trajectory, with the 425 carrying considerably more energy, momentum, and mass at any range.

Oh, and that RCBS slug is not even that good for BC; there are considerably better...

Damned facts, anyway.

Of course, getting back into the realm of maximum sanity, Nosler 5th shows a maximum load (under their "strong actions only" heading for the .45-70) of 53.0 grains of RL-7 under their 300 grain JSP/Partition. QL gives that a pressure estimate of 40kPSI.

Let's play there, shall we?

Extrapolating out the same 40k MAX pressure whilst extending the case to 2.4" for a COAL of 2.85", you can run the same RL-7 up HYPOTHETICALLY to 61.0 grains. Velocity estimate there is 2430 fps, with ME of 3940 ft/lbs. With an estimated 300 grain bullet BC of an even .200, you have a 260 yard MPBR and a zero range of 225 yards. At 250 yards, you're retaining 1495 ft/lbs.

Use a 425 grain bullet at a nominal .300 BC (easily done, or bested), load to the same COAL, and HYPOTHETICAL pressure of 40k in the 2.1" case, and you're at 2030 fps, with an ME of 3890 ft/lbs. You have a zero range of 205 yards, and an MPBR of 240 yards (again, that amazing 20 yard difference...). At 250 yards, you're at 1995 ft/lbs.

Even by claiming the MPBR and energy numbers as a justification to try to hot rod the .45-70 "extended" that you're running, the numbers themselves show otherwise as to the best option.

A 300 grain bullet in a 45-70 is a choice, but never the best choice

Is this Lee24 or Oldman1942? Your rifle, your medical bill, the 1895 IS NOT RATED for those kinds of pressures! Glad i ain't yer insurance company.

I WANT VIDEO of the 1st shot!

Oh, the JHP inside of 100 is just NASTY on whitetails.

But, for anything else... esp. when any "range" is considered, no, it ain't; regardless of whether you prescribe to MPBR, energy, momentum, drop... it just fails to carry the mail the way a heavier, higher BC slug can and does.

a 357 revolver kills deer well also... The 45-70 has much more to offer IMHO

Yep, but I guess I just don't "get" what a 300 gr. Partition from the plain-jane 45-70 won't kill on this side of the pond. If that won't do the job, a 425 Piledriver Jr. (or similar cast load) certainly would.

George

I don't have a burning desire to change my 45.70s at all.
They have worked wonderfully well as is, but if you do, have fun and post a report of what you find.

The 300gr Partitions have been fine for 2 Cow Elk so far, but I'm typically hunting in the thick stuff at archery range. 405gr rem have been fine too.

Foot Pounds of Energy ? Yawn, get close and place your shot, use your F.P.E. to carry them out!

That Piledriver Jr. is a helluva bullet.

I shoot for about 50k psi. Crazy right? I've gone past that even. I once accidentally loaded 62 grains of RL-10x into a batch of 2.6 COL .45-70 using sierra 300 HPs. Being the foolish redneck that I am and risking my beautiful 1895 cowboy I decided to shoot them. I loaded the gun in the lead sled and shot it with a string a couple times. The gun didn't blow so I kept the loads. Eventually the loads began tweaking the lever so I got rid of them and bought a new lever.

At the time I didn't have QL so I had no idea what kind of pressures I was at. Once I bought QL I plugged it in and saw that it estimated that I was above 60k psi. Needless to say I have trimmed it back and shoot for about 50k psi starting 10% low and using the chrony/QL as my feedback to estimate the pressures I'm at.

VAnimrod,

I plan on cooking up all sorts of loads to for the 2.85 COL. One that I particularly am interested in seeing how it performs is the .458 Hornady Lever-lution. They have a great BC and should really be able to reach out there. I have to admit, the first time I used their factory .47-70 leverlution rounds I was really afraid the magazine was gonna blow up.

FYI,
On a side note pertaining to the tweaked lever mentioned above. I purchased a Wild West Guns big loop lever this past year and it appears to be stronger than the factory lever. I appears to be a higher grade of steel and completely heat treated (the factory lever is just heat treated at the tip). One sign of its strength is the fact that if you hold it by the tip and tap it with something it rings like a bell (more so than the factory lever).

50k PSI?

Wow...

The level of dumbphuckitude around these parts is becoming rather incredible.

Well, have at it... you rocket-scientist you... Keep bending parts under pressure and let us know how that eventually turns out.

Sound eqates to strength how? That's right it doesn't

Also, I sure this has been mentioned somewhere on this board before but the .450 Marlin SAAMI MAP is 43,500 psi and the 1895 shoots those just fine. At 50k psi I haven't had any issues with the gun, but I caution that if you do that it is clearly at your own risk. And don't blame me if something happens.

Oh, the gummy tipped Hornady 325 grain bullet has a WHOPPING BC of .230.

Yippee... that'll make all the difference. Not.

Oh, and the Marlin lever (which is part of the LOCKING MECHANISM) was bending BECAUSE YOUR STUPID ASS WAS WAY OVER PRESSURE!

You're damned luck it bent, and didn't just shear.

Don't worry, though... that harder, more brittle temper lever from Wild West won't bend... it'll shear. Take a guess what happens if/when that sheers off? Want to hazard a guess where the bolt goes?

Moron...

All this, to gain, at best 20 friggin' yards on MPBR.

Last time I checked, the standard .45-70 and .45-90 BP loads did one HELLUVA job killing critters up through the size of grizzly and bison, at MUCH lower pressures and velocities, but the shooters then didn't have their heads up their collective asses, used heavy, high BC bullets, and used the damned sights calibrated to the trajectory.

Of course, wtf did they know, right?

This guy knows his leverguns and pushing the '95 action to 50,000 PSI on a continual basis is lowering the life of your Marlin by quite abit.



Jayco

No, but we'll certainly laugh at your dumb ass when something DOES happen to you.

FWIW, you're the only idiot wanting to hotrod the .45-70/.45-90 to levels that rifle isn't designed for.

Also, have you ever though about the fact that the BRASS isn't designed for those pressures, either?

No, of course not...

Yep. I can't say eating an 1895 bolt via an overload locking failure is high on my list of "want to do" things.

Actually, Winchester brass,the thinnest of 45-70 brass,was tested by George Weber at Hodgdons to 70,000 and they just fell out of the SAAMI barrel.Brass/Primers won't tell you when your getting to high in pressure..

The action is the first to go in a marlin.The man I quoted tested 1-Marlin and two Win '94's to destruction seeing if they would handle the 62-65,000 PSI of the 454 Casull.The Marlin was the first to go with less than 20 rounds with the Winchester next at somewhere around 40 rounds in the 60-62,000 PSI range...

If one wants more than the 45-70/450 Marlin can do,buy a 458 Win Mag or have the action beefed by a pro.

Jayco