Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting shot placement?

Well just that. I have seen these critters take just about every cal bullet and still go. I try to shoot or aim fore just behind the shoulder heart/lung still is that not wright. I take one or two young hunters out for deer every year. Well we got into elk. But I Made the poorlittle buggers hold tight until the shot is broudside. One feller is shooting 243 rem cor lok the other 25-06 cor lok . well we didnot get elk . I got my butttt chewed. Do you youall think I should let them take the shot at 150-200yds the kids can shoot but will that pill at a quartering away do it. I would rather have a chewing then have there first elk be a tracking and lost. Should I and do not mind get them a box each of $40+ ammo?

PS they use my pickup rifles they shoot ok with most ammo.

I would have made them hold off too. My sister in law shoots elk with 100 gr partitions out of a 243. Ive seen her dump several cows with that load. But shes been huntin for 20 years and she shoots awesome. Two years ago my brother put 2 115 tsx in a raghorn before he went down. Seemed like there was a half second between shots both of them right behind the shoulder. And that was at 60 yards with a guy who has killed alot of elk. Inexperienced hunters, elk at 200 yards, quartering angle, I would have backed your play on that one. Especially trying for a double. Those animals wouldve busted hard at the first shot. Second shot would be at a running animal. I would say smart choice.

I have a differnt opinion. If they were good quartering shots I would have let them shoot. Hunting is about shooting at animals. If you keep taking kids hunting and don't ever let them shoot at anything they will get bored with it and stay home and play video games. Buy the kids some good bullets and let them shoot.

When I was kid my dad let me kill alot of things that I probaly shouldn't have. When we were spring turkey hunting he would always say if a flock of turkeys come in look for a gobbler and if theres not one kill one any way and we will deal with it. Huning was fun for me because I got to shoot at and kill stuff.

I feel bad that due to my job my little boy will not be allowed to kill what ever comes by. Hunting is about killing still to this day for me, my dad and I am sure it will be for my little boy.

Dink

I would never let anyone take an iffy shot. Its not about shooting, its about getting the right shot. Too damn many idiots in the woods already think they can make and take any shot.

I also don't feel you have the right calibers for quartering shots... those are rounds for perfect shots even with a premium bullet IMHO. Th 25-06 would be better than the 243 though...

Folks that break the law on purpose too along the way irritate me.... and lets see now, an LEO now on top of it IIRC.... sorry that just pisses me off more.

I completely disagree with Dink. Hunting is not killing, it is the pursuit of animals, the time in the woods, the teaching of multiple skills to youngsters and others.
To tell the kids to shoot when the angle is not good is not wise, especially if you or they have doubts about a kill shot.
When the part of hunting that involves pulling the trigger arises, it should be the highest guarantee that the shooter can offer that the animal in the sights is going to die, right now.
To teach kids to shoot things that we don't have tags for or to make bad shots is poor ethics in my mind. I would never tell a kid to shoot a turkey just so we had one in the bag, regardless of the laws or ethics. I don't shoot hen pheasants when no roosters fly, I don't shoot bucks or bulls, even when they are of trophy class if I only have a doe/cow tag. I try to imagine every thing I do in the hunting woods will be broadcast on the evening news and want to continue the good name that true hunters have.

I hope that Kawi teaches his kids as he has done, hunting is not all about killing, in my mind, it is a very small piece of it.

hopefully we won't blanket assume all hunters have the same "ethics" as dink does.

Unfortunately most people will never learn until they make a mistake themselves. Until the kids loose an animal because of a poor shot they will not understand why they were not allowed to take the shot. At this point they are thinking to themselves that they will never pass up an opportunity like that again waiting for the perfect shot. This will most likely stay in there heads until they figure out why it is important to wait.

Now I was not there so I don't claim to know the situation but IMO the shot does not have to be perfect to pull the trigger but it has to be good enough that the shooter is confident in what the results will be. In your case you did what you thought was right at the time. The kids might not have agreed with you afterward, but there had to be some doubt in their minds as well or they would have pulled the trigger.

I believe that as you go, you explain... I never wanted to hear no, with no explanation and my parents were VERY good at this..... Its how I operate now too... as an inspector folks can hate you... but I always try to explain WHY we do what we do and then 95% of the folks are usually just fine with it.

To take someone out and just say no and not explain isn't teaching, its draggin em along. You explain what you are after, vitals, what it takes to kill them, how they live, what the tracks look like, what they feed on, where to find them, what spooks them, what doesn't and so on. IE the whole package.

INSIDE that package there is room all day long to say yes or no and why... and then on the first few for sure... you show all vitals... locations, how that would change from an angle, what it takes to penetrate and kill humanely and so on.

I'd hope thats how this was done and would bet on it.

I agree with that except that these are kids. Hopefully an explanation was given, and hopefully the message was understood. This topic being posted is one reason that I don't think the message sunk in. I could be wrong, but it seems like the OP is looking for validation for what he did. The other reason is that we are talking about seeing the big picture, and the consequences of actions. Kids in general have a hard time grasping that unless they are mature beyond a normal kid.

IMO he did the right thing and I would do the same, if someone wants to go out and take a poor shot and wound an animal they damn sure are not doing it on my watch.

Rost when I was a little boy I was not a cop. That may be hard for you figure that out so I thought I would point it out to you.

I was raised by a family of killers. When I go hunting I am not there to watch the sun set or the little birdies. I am there to hear bullets meet hide. I buy every doe/fawn tag I can and I plan to fill everyone of them. When I hit a prairie dog town I am there to kill them all. When my english pointers lock up on a covey of quail I am not there to watch them fly away.

In my opinion if you keep taking kids hunting and not letting them kill anything they will give it up in short order. Why go and be cold, get up early and climb hills just to be told the animal is not in a perfect position to shoot.

Rost I really don't care if I piss you off. I have been told by several members that you are a good guy and they might be true. I am surprised that you hunt though considering you think dogs are on the same level as people.

Just so you know rost I have not broken a game law in decades but I am not afraid to admit that I once did.

Dink

I have to jump in on this one. I agree with Dink. We are all there to kill. Bottom line, period. I do believe in being an ethical sportsman, however, if a shot presents itself and is not "ideal", I will still take it and/or encourage a youth to take the shot. This is how we learn, and come home with meat. Dink, I salute you for saying what is not popular with alot of people here. At least you are honest about it.

Dan

dhershberger you better watch agreeing with me Rost won't like you either........grin.

Dink

I'm entitled to my opinion, just as he is. Not really concerned if someone likes me or not. I saw alot of truth in what you posted. As I said before, at least your honest about what you would do in the field. I am sure that rost has NEVER done any of those things. IMO.

Dan

No one said you aren't entitled to your opinions. And I had to take a swipe at ya... you are as hard headed as I am. But trust me here, assuming you drink beer, I dont' drink much, IE every other weekend we might visit friends and drink 2-3 beers... I guarantee we could have a super fine time and share a beer over a campfire.

Folks including me get passionate though. Very stubborn, think our way is the only way. You and I are out of the same mold, but you and I would argue if you liked ballistic tip bullets and I like Barnes.... just the way it is and makes it interesting. Probably why I enjoyed the debate team so much.

Have I broke the law. Yep sure. Shot over my limit by a couple of birds a few times. Same as you, different violation basically. But Dad never taught me to go ahead and do it, thats irresponsible by the parent IMHO. At least its not a good way to start a child, they will make enough mistakes as it is.

I'd like to clarify my stand on bad shots too... I"ll not change my mind to my dying day on this one. If its makeable, doable, end result will be death, and not simply trying to pump one in to slow it down, then I'm ok with it, thats assuming all bases are covered. Caliber, bullet, ability of the shooter and so on. If not you breed a sloppy hunter. Nothing illegal about that but it isn't my cup of tea. Heck why do you think that I advocate a large caliber and a stout bullet, because if given a south end of a northbound deer is all I have... I have the ability, the gun, the bullet to take that deer humanely. If thats the case with the kids, thats cool. They've learned another option. But given that they had not hunted, small calibers and such, thats generally a bad setup to start with a bad shot. I am not saying they all have to be broadside. Though as a youth, I was hunting deer in the 3rd grade and never shot a deer other than broadside basically that I can recall probably until I was in my upper 20s.... never had the need, alwyas had the patience.

Heck I would go out and blast 500 rounds of 22 on an afternoon, that provided plenty of trigger time for me to keep me entertained, and as such I didn't have the need to just fling one at game.

And yes the goal of hunting is to kill, and for the kids that I"ve helped I try to make that happen every time we go out for something. Of course along the way we've waited for the right shot and amazingly with the kids I've helped along with both bow and gun... I"ve yet to see any of them make anything but a vital hit. NOW if you just say shoot and let them go, I can guarantee they will mess up quickly, and thats why you give the guidance. If not, and legal, what the heck, give em a gun and let em roam.

As to your swipe at me on dogs... I'm grinning... I still happen to know I'm not afraid of a dog and as an inspector I deal with all kinds all day long. I know what can and can't kill me and so I use defense as needed, the only option is not lethal... I can seperate them from humans, I can seperate cats from dogs as I have no love for cats. We all rock to a different beat so to speak. I"ve had to shoot some wild dogs over the years and that doesn't sit well with me. I"d just as soon shoot the owners that turned them loose, but ya do what you have to.

And with kids, I"ve watched my nephew mature... we used to have him shoot at every duck that came in... he is now 22... I last duck hunted with him at 20.... The one morning he simply wanted to not shoot for about 15 minutes and watch the sunrise, the clouds, the birds work and so on... of course then we killed.. but he went home and told mom how cool the sunrise and birds where.....
I am sorry that you can't see the beauty in nature WHILE you are killing... or waiting to kill... And I totally understand about killing.... I hunt every year for a particular size buck, could care less if we meet or not, but I have do and cull tags... and usually we fill every last one of them. And its not really a hunt but a kill. But on those doe kills my wife has some of the neatest shots of wildlife we get.

Everyone marches to a different drummer, and really DINK, we are not on a different page here at all, you and I are saying the same thing I THINK... unless you advocate letting the kids shoot at any game and any distance or angle with any gun eveyrtime they see something. Thats where I draw the line, there needs to be some responsibility, just exactly like Dhershberger points out.

Heck over the years my only issues with the kids ahve been to ask CAN you make that shot, are the crosshairs or sight pin staying still enough, and if so, when things are good, let er rip.

BTW Dink... I wished I had access to some southern land and some central tx land I used to.. was covered filthy with hogs... you could bring your son down and we could get with some serious killing! Those critters need to be shot and on 2 of those places it wasn't unusual for us to kill 10-15 in a morning... I managed to kill a sow one morning and all 11 of her shoats of about 40 pounds each... shotgun and buckshot does wonders.... dang I wish I had that land back...

Kawi

I think it was said on this thread too before we got off on our debate... buy some better bullets... let the kids practice with cheap ones all summer, then rezero them with the good stuff..... barnes X type is my preference but something bonded as a starting place if not the monolithics... You'll know if they can make a 200 yard shot or not by the time season rolls around... and if its a shot you'd take, then let them shoot. But discuss with them that an elk is not a deer... they can take a lot of shooting and go miles and miles and miles with a bad hit never to be found.... just tell em they need to be 200% sure of their shot before taking it, and if they are that, by God take the shot and lets go. Of course you need to do this before you are out in the field. You don't have but seconds out there sometimes...

And take outdoor magazines... and make em put a dot or do a don't shoot thing on all kinds of game and angles..... They'll be ready by then.

Only other thing I could think of... ask the local warden if there are any depradation hunts around... if you could find that in the winter, the kids could get some shooting under their belts and some kills and be that much better off for elk season.

Never let them practice without hearing protection. Make them shoot from positions.... have some dummy ammo loaded up, IE a bullet and dead primer but no powder..... tell them you'll load the gun for them as a drill that they don't know is coming.... let em shoot a few shots and then slip that dummy in there.... YOU watch for what the muzzle does... and then ask them after the click..... what did they see... ball and dummy drill is what its called, it teaches a lot.

BTW I don't know that I'd risk a new shooter with a 243 at much beyond 150 yards on an elk... 200 would probably be a max really...
Good luck, Jeff

Here's what I imagine I would do if I was to hunt with young, inexperienced hunters.

Buy a package (or three) of the cheap 8" paper plates if deer hunting or the cheap 10" (or bigger) paper plates if elk/moose hunting. Take the boys, the rifles, and a rangefinder to country similar to what you plan to hunt. Place the targets at random locations and distances. Have the boys practice shooting at these targets from various field positions. Instruct the boys that these sessions are their "qualifiers" and that they must keep 100% of 1 magazines worth of shots on the paper plate. If they can keep all shots on an 8" paper plate at 200 yards, but not 250 then they have qualified for 200 yards max. Tell them they won't be taking any shots past their qualified range come hunting season. Take them out more than once and allow them to re-qualify from the 4 standard positions.

I believe this will build familiarity with the rifle and load. It will increase their shooting ability and will show them what they are, and perhaps more importantly, are not capable of. It will also give them something to work towards if say, they only qualified for 150 yards but shots out to 300 are common. There also won't be any surprises come game time when they spot an animal at 400 but couldn't keep their 3 to 5 shots in 8" past 250 and you say "no go".

This is an idea I've had knocking around in my head for some time. Probably since my first son was born, since this is what I plan to do with my own boys.

Rost I do think we are saying alot of the same thing. My point is if a kid does not get kill in first couple years of hunting they will give it up.

Another thing to keep in mind in mssouri we don't have varmints like hogs,prairie dogs or rock chucks to let a kid kill instead of game animals. Here we have small game and deer with a few turkeys in the mix. Alot of kids will hunt the two day youth season and not see a deer. I can't imagine telling a kid to wait for the perfect shot on the only deer they might see in the two day youth season.

I think I am going to take my little boy to one of the high fenced places here and let him shoot a tame hog. I wish you had a place to kill hogs I would be there.

Never underestimate a dog. One of the first dead people I ever worked was killed by a chow that I bet did not weigh but 50-60 pounds. It was nasty to say the least.

Dink

--Shoot them in the front half.

--At 150-200 yds, doesn't matter much what caliber or how much powder behind
the bullet.

--A premium bullet tends to produce less drama--especially in 6mm or 25 calibers.

--I've seen lots of elk shot with lots of different calibers/cartridges, and if you shoot the elk in the wrong half, they can take a gruesome amount of punishment. Otherwise, they aren't all that hard to kill.

I've killed several elk quartering away with a 243 and 100 gr Partitions.....

In reality, up close and personal tends to be harder on a bullet than mid-ranges.


Casey