Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire JC was NOT the messiah!

Bs'd

He has all the answers, it is just that he has no time to share them with you all.
Too bad, isn't it?



Where do the nations come into the equation?

It is Israel suffering for the sins of Israel.



Is it true that JC never opened his mouth? � When he had said this, one of the officers standing by struck Jesus with his hand, saying, "Is that how you answer the high priest?" Jesus answered him, "If I have spoken wrongly, bear witness to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?� John 18



During the exile was Israel as a nation dead.



Didn't JC commit any violence? �And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.� John 2.

It just doesn't work, trying to squeeze in JC.



Do I understand this right, that here somebody denies that Paul abolishes the whole law?

In that case I trust you live by the whole law of Moses?



Too bad you are not able to post those standard rebuttals here.



Where I come for a good honest upright discussion, there debate boards of the messianics disappear like snow for the sun.

Just like you, they don't have any answers.


Eliyahu

Bs'd

Please let it be clear to you that there is no such a thing as a trinity, that is an invention of the lying statue worshipping Roman Catholic church, invented to cover up their idol worship.
NOWHERE in the Bible, not in the OT (Only Testament), nor in the NT, is a trinity to be found.

But no matter how often you say: 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, a God the father and a God the son is 2 gods is idol worship.



Take your time, we have eternity ahead of us.



Common ground is boring.
It only get's interesting were we differ. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Eliyahu

You are wasting your time with this man. Only God's Spirit can deal with such individuals.
Zechariah 12:10

12:10 �I will pour out upon the kingship14 of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me,15 the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn.16 12:11

It says here they will see they "pierced" their own. There is nothing to gain from debating with this person.

Isaiah 6:8-10

6:8 I heard the voice of the sovereign master say, �Whom will I send? Who will go on our behalf?�13 I answered, �Here I am, send me!� 6:9 He said, �Go and tell these people:

�Listen continually, but don�t understand!

Look continually, but don�t perceive!�

6:10 Make the hearts of these people calloused;

make their ears deaf and their eyes blind!

Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears,

their hearts might understand and they might repent and be healed.�14

The best thing to do is pray for this person as we are supposed to pray for others.

i can just about guarantee y'all that eli's posts were written beforehand and ready to be divvied up among the replies he reaped here at 24hour. he is now on my ignore list.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me." St John 14:6

Believe what you will, and I will beleive what I will. And please refrain from calling the beliefs of others "BS'd" I can't speak for other but, I know I don't appreciate it.

Paul had no authority to "abolish" the law. Rather, Jesus has fulfulled the law. Therefore, it has served its purpose and is no longer in force. To quote Jesus, "...not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Jesus, on the cross, proclaimed, "It it accomplished." Now, that is not to say that the law is no longer true. Where the law deals with the truth, it remains true. Truth never ceases being truth. It is only the bondage to the law that is no longer in force. Sin remains, naturally. Where the law speaks of sin (we are largely speaking here of the ten commandments), this aspect of the law is still of great import, because it deals with eternal truths about right and wrong conduct. The requirement that a hut be burned to the ground if a certain kind of mold is found therein, however, is no longer binding.

Well, well, well. I see the dust starting to fly from my sandles already, but I am amazed that you haven't answered my questions yet. So, Eli, how do you get forgiven for YOUR sins?

Sad, so sad. And I really mean that. The blindness of the natural man.

No trinity in the Bible? On the surface that is true, the word trinity isn't there, but explain why the word Elohiym is used (you didn't comment on that either, did you?) Of course, there is 1st John 5:7 (KJV). Just another one of those "faulty" translations, you think?

Yes, Eli, we all have eternity. My guess is, as many post modern jewish "students" you don't believe in hell. Too bad that God does.

I have often thought that every Christian should spend 10 seconds hanging over hell. If they did they would truly strive as Paul did that by any means they might save some. I will pray for you, my friend. In the end, only God can save a man's soul, for only God the Spirit (you know, from the Trinity) can quicken the dead spirit of man so that he (or she) can believe.

I also will not waste anymore time with you, as I'm running short on pearls to cast. May God have mercy on your soul.

FISH280: don't ignore him. the word plainly describes the man of isreal as the double minded man who is unstable in all his ways. if we ignore him then we miss the word being reveiled thru him and what hes trying to do here. i learned alot by reading his posts. most jewish believers are bound to the law and can't be freed from it. its why they can't see the delivering power of the CHRIST. the law is here and he will not be free from it till it is fulfilled in him. he's blinded by his law because the law can't do what the death and resurrection has done for so many. i find him to be a tremendous blessing because thru the revelation of the word to my heart i find that what he holds to be thruths that the word says will be in times such as these. it confirms that GODS word is true. we all have been warned of such men and spirits. our battle is not with flesh and blood but with spirit and principalities and powers. as 1st john says: its that spirit of antichrist and its that that he can not confess/profess that JESUS CHRIST "IS COME" in the flesh. we've heard that it should come and is already in the world. note: his beliefs are that spirit of anti-christ that dwells in him and the world. we are to try the spirits. just as the jews hardened their hearts and refused so great a truth then and in mans wisdom , killed the savior so they are trying to do the same today. as it was then so it is today. we are that body of christ being resurrected by GODS word and that body is what his wisdom of men and the law is trying to kill. we're all being led to the cross to be crucified with CHRIST. we hang on that tree and yet today we can be with our lord and savoir in paradise. ALL GLORY TO GOD AND PEACE TO ALL MEN!! I CHALLENGE THIS MAN TO SEE THE LOVE OF CHRIST SHARED TO HIM AND TO ALL MEN. THAT WE ALL ARE ONE. GOD IS IN ALL THRU ALL AND ALL. BROTHER I CAN'T IGNORE HIM FOR THAT SIMPLE FACT. OH HOW HE TEACHES ME SO MANY TRUTHS AND WHO HE USES TO TEACH THEM. WOW!!! WHAT AN AMAZING GOD WE SEEK TO UNDERSTAND!! I LOVE EACH OF YOU FOR WHAT YOU PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO ADD TO MY MIND AND HOW YOU STIRR IT TO THINK. LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR. GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!

Bs'd

Bs'd is an abbriviation of the Aramaic term "ba siata desmaya", and it means "With the help of Heaven".

Eliyahu.

There are none so blind that can not see. I will pray, to Jesus the Messiah, for your eyes to be open. Until then I will no longer participate in this particular thread.

God bless you through Jesus His Son.

Jim

Amen, Texasbatman. When he kicks the Lord Jesus Christ in the teeth, it gets me mad enough to spit. I know that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but if they were, I'm in!

And don't bless the guy. Look at the passage in 2 John below.

2John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Shaking the dust off is a good thing. And anyone that denies Christ, is antichrist. (Not THE Antichrist, but driven by that same spirit of Antichrist.

Eli--
I welcome you to the campfire but not as one who continually diatribes against the Christ, the lamb of God, the Lion of Judah (as He will come again).
As a Jew and a believer in the OT, you must also believe in satan, lucifer, the angel of light, the great deciever, the father of lies and how he has worked throught the history of the world as evidenced by the Israelites "stiffed-necked" ways. While he is now attacking Christians in every way imaginable (that is specific to that individual or people) and probably many we haven't, do you think for a moment he has forgotten the Jew. Assuming your answer is "no", that is, that Satan still works on you as an individual and "as a people", how can you know you are not completely and totally decieved? You cannot.
But this is not and never has been an issue won by argument. It is by a faith (in Christ) which is foolishness to the perishing and brougt on by a change of heart...yes, by the Holy Spirit.

Bs'd



I went into that one in this thread already two times, but here he is for the third time: Look for the answer here: http://www.geocities.com/Metzad/sacrifices.htm



Only he is blind who is not able to understand that 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.
Only he is blind who is not able to understand that Y-H-W-H is not the same as Jesus.



Another victim of corrupted Christian Bible translations.
To answer your question: No, I John 5:7 is NOT a mistranslation.
You cannot mis translate something which doesn't exist.
I John 5:7 in for instant the KJV, is an outright blunt falsification of the Christian Bibles.
Here is an excerpt from my home page which is obviously not read by you:

And what about I John 5:7? "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one."
----Well, this looks like a good verse to prove a trinity, except for the fact that this is a falsification of your Bible. In the original Greek scriptures of the New Testament this text does not exist. This text was added later to the New Testament in a desperate attempt to prove a trinity that cannot be proven. The New Testament has come to us in bits and pieces, a gospel from here, a letter of Paul from there� The first ones who compiled out of this a reliable text of the Greek New Testament, were Westcott and Hort in 1881. In that Greek text I John 5:7 says: "For there are three witness bearers."
That's all.
Followed by verse 8: "The spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are into the one." The whole part about the Father, the word, and the Holy Ghost, and these being one, does not exist in the original Greek text.
The Greek text of the New Testament of Dr. Eberhard Nestle is nowadays considered to be the most reliable Greek text available, and in that text the verses 7 and 8 of I John 5 are exactly the same as in the Greek text of Westcott and Hort. (You don't have to take my word for this, just ask your pastor or reverend, and he will confirm these facts, unless of course, he is outright lying to you.)
There is no such thing as a trinity, not in the Old Testament and not in the New Testament.



I do believe in hell, I just don't believe in a for ever burning hell in which the loving Christian God is going to torture the majority of mankind for ever and ever and all eternity.

How do you reconcile that? A loving God who created the majority of mankind while he knew in advance he would be torturing them for ever in hell?

About Elohiem: Elohiem has the male plural ending �iem�, but in the case of God it is still a singular. This we see clearly in for instance Gen 1:1 where it says: �In the beginning Elohiem created the heaven and the earth.� There the word 'created' is 'bara', which is the singular form of the verb. The verb follows in Hebrew the subject in plural or singular. Since the verb is singular, the subject must be singular. If Elohiem was a plural, it should have been �baru�.
The plural is used here as a majestic plural, to give honor to the subject.
The same word 'elohiem' is used for Moses, in Exodus 4:16 �He shall speak for you to the people; and he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God.�
I hope nobody in his right mind thinks that Moses was not a singular person, but a plural?
Here we also see clearly that �elohiem� not always means �God�. In the above verse it means �leader�.

Besides that, many words in Hebrew are singular but have the plural ending �iem�.
There are even Hebrew words of which the singular can ONLY be expressed with the plural ending 'iem'.
Examples of this are 'paniem', face, 'mayim', water, 'shamayiem', heaven.


Eliyahu

Bs'd

All I hear is the sound of silence.

And why is it that I don't hear what I should have "misquoted"?

Could it maybe be that people talk tough, and when asked to back up their bluff they fall silent?

'nuff said.

Eliyahu

Bs'd



Bs'd

And �fulfilling� doesn't mean in any way �abolishing�, �putting aside�, or something like that.



I fail to see the logic of that one.
Let's take for instance the law �Thy shall not steal�. If there is somebody who didn't steal, then he fulfilled that law.
And according to your logic, then that law is automatically no longer in force??



So JC said that he didn't come to abolish the law, and according to you he did come in order to abolish the law??

JC used very strong language: �Sooner shall heaven and earth pass away, etc�.
Why use such language when he was going to abolish the law in a few years anyway?
JC said that the law would not disappear until EVERYTHING was accomplished.
Was EVERYTHING accomplished when he died? Of course not.
So the law stands according to JC.



Now you are trying to say that part of the law is still in effect?

You just said it is abolished?

Or do you only abolish that part which you don't like?


Eliyahu

Bs'd

Let's say I see the Satan a little different than how you see him.

You think he is a fallen angel. Are there any OT texts you can point to for that one?



And exactly how can YOU know you are not totally and completely deceived?
Especially since you are worshipping a man-god who is introduced by the NT, a man-god who is NOWHERE to be found in the OT.

Eliyahu

Zechariah 12:10

12:10 �I will pour out upon the kingship14 of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me,15 the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn.16 12:11

Isaiah 6:8-10

6:8 I heard the voice of the sovereign master say, �Whom will I send? Who will go on our behalf?�13 I answered, �Here I am, send me!� 6:9 He said, �Go and tell these people:

�Listen continually, but don�t understand!

Look continually, but don�t perceive!�

6:10 Make the hearts of these people calloused;

make their ears deaf and their eyes blind!

Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears,

their hearts might understand and they might repent and be healed.�14

Isaiah 53:10

53:3 He was despised and rejected by people,10

one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;

people hid their faces from him;11

he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.12

53:4 But he lifted up our illnesses,

he carried our pain;13

even though we thought he was being punished,

attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.14

53:5 He was wounded because of15 our rebellious deeds,

crushed because of16 our sins;

he endured punishment that made us well;17

because of his wounds we have been healed.18

53:6 All of us had wandered off like sheep;

each of us had strayed off on his own path,

but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him.19

53:7 He was treated harshly and afflicted,20

but he did not even open his mouth.

Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,

like a sheep silent before her shearers,

he did not even open his mouth.21

53:8 He was led away after an unjust trial22�

but who even cared?23

Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living;24

because of the rebellion of his own25 people he was wounded.

53:9 They intended to bury him with criminals,26

but he ended up in a rich man�s tomb,27

because28 he had committed no violent deeds,

nor had he spoken deceitfully.

53:10 Though the Lord desired to crush him and make him ill,

once restitution is made,29

he will see descendants and enjoy long life,30

and the Lord�s purpose will be accomplished through him.

53:11 Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,

he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.31

�My servant32 will acquit many,33

for he carried their sins.34

53:12 So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes,35

he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful,36

because he willingly submitted37 to death

and was numbered with the rebels,

when he lifted up the sin of many

and intervened38 on behalf of the rebels.�

Isaiah 55:3-5
55:3 Pay attention and come to me!

Listen, so you can live!9

Then I will make an unconditional covenantal promise to10 you,

just like the reliable covenantal promises I made to David.11

55:4 Look, I made him a witness to nations,12

a ruler and commander of nations.�

55:5 Look, you will summon nations13 you did not previously know;

nations14 that did not previously know you will run to you,

because of the Lord your God,

the sovereign king15 of Israel,

for he bestows honor on you.

55:6 Seek the Lord while he makes himself available;16

call to him while he is nearby!

Isaiah 52:13-15
52:13 �Look, my servant will succeed!20

He will be elevated, lifted high, and greatly exalted.21

52:14 Just as many were horrified by the sight of you22�

he was so disfigured23 he no longer looked like a man;24

52:15 his form was so marred he no longer looked human25�

so now26 he will startle27 many nations.

Kings will be shocked by his exaltation,28

for they will witness something unannounced to them,

and they will understand something they had not heard about.



Jesus is the Messiah. We have killed the anointed one. Jew and gentile alike are all guilty.

Eliyahu,
Ezek 28:13-19

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
KJV

And:

Isa 14:12-15

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
KJV


YMMV but that covers it for me.

Gen 18:1-3
18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
KJV
You are right concerning this passage. There is not A man God found here but THREE men Gods found here. The Trinity revealed and, by some, ignored.

And:
Gen 32:24-30

24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
KJV

Again, those scriptures tell me God may well appear as men, and has, and will again.

Thanks Ricky.

Eli- I didn't have the time to respond to all your questions, misconceptions. Your challenges can indeed be answered from Holly Scripture. And again, you will not be swayed by arguments from a Christian(s).
But, I will tell you this. You can have the certainty of eternal life, the forgiveness of all of your sins because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ on the cross....for you. It was a personal sacrifice provided for by the Father who knew you from before time and would that none would perish and so provided a sacrifice to cover all sins for all men who would believe and receive Him. Trust in Christ as Lord and Savour, believe and be saved.
And that dear sir is truly the best, the very best I (not literally me) can give you.