Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles (new?) ATF rules regarding shipping guns

well, i got a surprise today!

spoke to the ATF today and found out this:

NO ffl required to ship to a gunshop from a private party! i was told the only time an ffl ink copy is needed is when the firearm is being sent from an ffl to an ffl.

1-860-240-3400 this is the hartford CT office number. went to get a copy from my ffl and he told me this. i said no way. he called and this is what was said....

woofer

Been that way for quite a while...

So if I sell someone a rifle and ship it to their FFL I don't need their FFL's ink signed FFL???

Did not know this.

If your willing to take their word that it is a legit FFL holder.

Doesn't the ATF have FFL holders listed on a website?
I was thinking if you got the FFL number you could verify it's authenticity.
Dave

Here is the link to verify a valid FFL.
https://www.atfonline.gov/FFLeZCheck/

Now if you can convince the seller that he just needs to send it to the ATF listed address.

This would have saved me a bunch of trouble recently. I have to drive about 40miles round trip to my FFL holder. Had to do it twice because usps lost the first priority mail envelope and now have to drive there again to pick up the rifle.
Dave

Dave,

The Hole in the Wall will receive any gun for $25. That's about what time and gas is costing you...

dww

huh, i had never heard of it. always had a request for a ffl copy....
thanks for the link!
woofer

The federal law ONLY applies to dealer in this respect. A dealer has to have a signed in ink FFL to ship a gun to another dealer.
You (not a dealer) can ship a gun to an FFL holder anywhere, and he can return the same gun to you without you ever seeing his FFL. If he should lie, about having a license, he's commiting a federal offense. You can always look him up in the directory though.
The easy way to think of it is one of either the sender or the receipient has to have an FFL.
There are variances such as if you ship your gun to an FFL and he replaces it, such as under warranty, then he has to include a letter stating the replacement details to you, and keep a copy of that letter on file.

Now that you have all this sorted out, you've got to expect UPS to know it and not decline to ship your stuff. That was my adventure last week. There is a difference between how they ship long guns and pistols, but that's (from what I can tell) just UPS policy not the law and they get it mixed up frequently in my experience. Knowing the law is good, now you need to learn UPS policy. I haven't tried DHL maybe they're different <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have shipped pistols FedEX it was pretty much no hassel but pricey.

Don't ship "Guns" ship "precision machined engine parts."

You can also ship your gun to yourself at any address without FFL.

Is this true for both long guns and handguns?

YES, BTW the reason UPS ain't real big on shipping guns has nothing to do with being anti-gun. It's because of the people that work for them like to steal! UPS has been plagued by theft problems for years, much like USPS was when they required us to mark the boxes FIREARMS in 1 inch high letters. Do not let the boxes you ship in look anything like a gun box, break all long guns down, wrap each peice seperate and put in the shortest box the peices can go in! Gun store names on boxes are an invite to loss. Take pics of the firearm before shipping. Insure, thats why you need pics. If somthing happens and it gets lost or broke the postal inspectors will try to low ball you on the claim. All of this advice was given me at the Anchorage airport post office years ago by a postal worker/gunnut. He turned out to be right on the money!

Which is why you don't want to try to 'fool' the carriers by declaring the shipment as anything but what it really is. If you have a shipment damaged or lost, how are you going to file a claim?? I've had to deal with both situations and got my money because there was no question about what was in the package when it shipped.

So what are the rules on selling/shipping factory-loaded ammo? Say for a gun which you no longer own, but found a couple boxes stashed away that you'd forgotten about.

CAL9

You can't ship loaded ammo.

Paul
Recent rule change makes shipping ammo in small quantities legal again... would quote exactly what the rule is but cannot lay hands on it right now...
art

What makes you think you can't ship loaded ammo? I work at the range for the local PD and we ship and recieve ammo all the time. Fedex, UPS, truck shipments, etc. The only place you can't ship loaded ammo is thru the USPS.
BTW, we are the local disposal facility for ammo and since FEDEX's hub is here in Memphis, we get refused/damaged shipments of ammo from them all the time.
Here are the rules...
Shipping loaded ammunition in the United States:

The first rule is that LOADED AMMUNITION MAY NEVER BE SHIPPED THROUGH THE US MAIL. The United States Postal Service will not allow shipment of loaded ammunition. Inert ammunition and components may be sent through the mail, but should be clearly marked as inert on a small note included inside the package to prevent a misunderstanding.

Both the United Parcel Service (UPS) and Federal Express (FedEx) will provide ground shipment of loaded small arms ammunition up through .50 caliber. For packages up to 20 pounds, the ammunition must be packed in boxes with at least a 200 pound bursting strength and be marked on the outside:

ORM-D

Small Arms Ammunition


Again, this information may be dated and you should check with the companies� hazardous materials information hotlines:

UPS (800) 554-9964
FedEx (800) 762-3725 and follow dialing instructions or (901) 344-3000
The transportation of small arms ammunition is regulated by the Federal government in 49CFR173.63 (http://shippingintl.com/text/49cfr173part173.html). To determine the specific hazardous material code for ammunition (UN code) contact the Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Hotline (800) 467-4922.

The ATF also regulates the interstate transportation of small arms ammunition. Neither the shipper or receiver of small arms ammunition shipped interstate need a FFL (dealer or collector). Basically the ATF, in 27CFR178 (specifically 27CFR178.32 & 99), (http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_02/27cfr178_02.html) prohibits the shipment of armor piercing ammunition and prohibits the shipment of any ammunition to a person known to:

Be under 21 years of age
Live in a state where the shipment is prohibited
Be under indictment for, or, has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year
Be a fugitive from justice
Be an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance
Have been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution
Be an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States
If you do not know the person you are shipping the ammunition to, you may want to have the person sign a statement certifying that they meet the requirements listed above.

Again, this information is the author�s best understanding from reading 27CFR178 and may not be accurate. If you have any questions you should contact the ATF at (202) 927-7772.

Jamison
Believe I read recently that USPS now ships ORM-D...???
art