Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Penetration vs. Frag

I figure I'd have to be a cull hunter to draw any firm conclusions and since that isn't in my future plans all I can do is offer my observations and two cents worth

I've never used a pure varmint bullet on a deer,but have used or seen used(and looked the carcasses over afterwards)a good wide variety of bullets,everything from Nosler Solid Base(semi frag ?)Partitions (in lots of weights and calibers), Sierra,Speer, Hornady,X,AB's,Bitterroots,BT's,etc.

I am not a ribcage nor a shoulder shooter but take whatever is offered,because many of the deer I've shot have not given me a ton of time nor much chance to be particular.

Early on I used Sierra's,Hornady,and Speers;later I started on Partitions in various calibers and weights,and still later I started on Bitterroots(which usually retain 95%+ of their weight, and typically expand to pretty broad frontal areas).I've used the Partitions and BBC's mostly since the 80's because I might be hunting other stuff in the course of a year and want a bullet with a wider range of performance than something that sheds more weight,so I don't really look for the ultimate deer bullet.

According to conventional wisdom, the BBC and the Partition should be the slowest killers but that has not been my observation.Chest hit(pure lung shots)I have had large bucks hit with both stumble along a short distance(10-20 yards?)and collapse,and have had an even greater number collapse to the shot(DRT).The farthest I have had a deer go when chest hit with a BBC was about 40 yards;hit through the chest at 300 yards,he kicked himself off with hind legs and rolled downslope,dead when he stopped.Another large mule deer hit through the chest from above and behind at 400 yards(7mm 140 BBC at 3300 fps)was so instantly dead I lost him in recoil.

I belly crawled with a friends wife to within 400 yards of a nice pronghorn,and gave her instructions on where to hold for a 400 yard shot,she using my rifle,a 270 Win with 130 BBC @3100 fps.The bullet entered near the heart and exited the off side,the buck ran 30 yards or so and collapsed.

Results have been similar with Partitions in everything from the 257 Roberts to the 300 Win mag,and at varous distances from hard off the muzzle to about 500 yards or so.A buck hit in a sage brush basin at 300 yards was lost in recoil from a 270 with 130 Partition.

My largest-ever mule deer(body weight,a true giant)was hit quartering on at about 175-200 yards,with a 140 AB at 3250,bullet striking through onside shoulder,back through lungs, and recovered against the off-side ribe cage.He reared like a stallion,spun,and went 19 paces,blowing blood all the way.

A big whitetail buck hit through the lungs broadside with 150 Sierra from a 30/06 traveled about 75 yards down the mountain before he collapsed.....

OTOH a doe hit by a buddy with a 130 partition,through lungs went about 75 yards,leaving a blood trail my 10 year old son could follow,because he did....

If I were going to pick one deer bullet for deer of all sizes,and distances from off the muzzle to say 500 yards,and wanted a high percentage of DRT's,based on what I have seen, it would be a Nosler Partition.I would bet the Fusion and Reminton CoreLokt UB would be really good as well,but have not used them yet.JMHO and YMMV

My thoughts exactly. You saved me some typing John. Agree 100%.

That's where my conclusions came from. Under controlled situations, often identical stands, bait positions and nearly the same distances from one day to the next. It was not hunting, just culling for science(drop netting unmarked deer was too slow and required too much manpower to do daily) in a series of 200 acre enclosures over 2 years. Between myself and several other grad students, many hundreds(I think 600, the only data I kept was for my fawn and yearling growth project of which I have 245 samples) of deer were killed with a wide variety of guns and loads at first. Eventually we settled on Nosler Ballistic Tips as being the most effective on South Texas deer for us. We didn't quantify the distances run after a hit, it was a seat of the pants observation and we didn't try everything on the market. We were still just beginning to experiment with handloading. Ballistic Tips don't completely fragment, we got wide exit wounds most of the time. They worked well for us for 100s of pigs also. Only rarely did we ever see a particularly large pig(over 200 pounds), and they did well with them too.
Of all of those, I only recall one instance of a Nosler Ballistic Tip "failing" that I witnessed at that time, and that was from short range shot with a .24 cal 95 grain Ballistic Tip leaving the muzzle around 3250 fps. In that case, it appeared that the bullet broke the buck's humerus, but did not destroy the lungs. He ran off a few yards and then layed down. I shot him with a .30-30 and 150 grain factory loaded Silvertips, and he promptly died. I also had one other similar experience with that bullet on a mule deer buck while hunting in Wyoming a few years ago. Anyway, those bullets were being driven too fast for what they were designed for, but only twice did it become a problem.

Oh yeah, and there is plenty of meat damage, which is certainly more severe than with Barnes-type bullets.

exbio: Good post and good info.

Cull hunts ain't easy to find for many of us....

Come here and you can shoot hogs out of farmers fields until your gun barrel melts.

Free of Charge!

JM: Cool!

THAT sounds like fun!

Can it be done over the winter when it's cooler?

Bob, JM, I would like that as well..Nothing like a hot barrel and good company

goodnews: We should go see JM....I will buy and even drink....... bourbon....just don't tell Ingwe.....

I have killed more than a chit load of Texas whitetails using cartridges from the 17 Rem up to the 7mm Rem Mag. My experience is nothing kills them quicker than Sierra Game Kings and Nosler Ballistic Tips.

These are my current deer loads;
.222 Rem = 55 grain Sierra
220 Swift = 63 grain Sierra
243 Win = 95 grain Ballistic Tip
25-06 = one rifle shoots 100 grain Sierras, one shoots 100 grain Ballistic Tips.
270 Win = 130 grain Ballistic Tip
7mm Rem Mag = 140 grain Ballistic Tip.

Lack of penetration has never been a problem for me. Lack of expansion from some brands of bullets was an issue that resulted in several long tracking jobs to recover my deer. All that ended when I started shooting Ballistic Tips and Sierra Game Kings.

I have recovered exactly one 95 grain Ballistic Tip and one 63 grain Sierra from deer. Most of my kills have been bang-flops and I've not had any go farther than 25 yards.

As always, your millage may vary according to shot placement and hunting conditions. As for me, I'm happy with the results I'm getting.

Heck yeah!

But they are a little harder to catch once the crops are in.

I wasted an excellent opportunity to learn more about bullets when we shot pigs in the 80's and 90's. Of course, that info would be obsolete now anyway.

I didn't feel like gutting a bunch of hogs in the summer heat to find 'em, plus the game commission folks didn't want you doing that.

It was good shooting, I learned how to shoot a rifle at night and we helped out alot of friends.

JM

I believe "frags" down them a little quicker.

The 165 gr Hornady Interbonds out of 30-06's have resulted in the shortest travel distance in recent deer shot by our little group. They do bloodshoot meat but don't fragment quite as badly as the lighter weight NBT's.

The 165 NBT out of a 300 Win Mag was making some spectacular kills for a friend until he went to using 200 grain NPTs for everything out of that rifle.

FWIW I personally prefer bullets that are more penetrators; Core Lokts and Hornady Interlocks have seen a lot of use in 180 grain weights from 30-06's and 150-165 grains from .308's

Mule Deer,
I agree fully with what you said, especially the part about the different levels of fragmentation. I was trying to keep it simple. As mentioned by others, fragmenting bullets immediately makes me think of varmint grenades style bullets. I have weighed a good few TSX, Accubonds, XP3, Partitions, a cupncores. Non retain precisely 100%. There are a lot of variables that effect the actual percentage at the end of the day. My goal is to find a bullet that expands and stays pretty consistent and regardless of shoulder or not retains enough to go at a minimum all the way to the offside rib cage.....after that point, it doesn't really matter.

Thanks for expanding my thought though. It probably helps make it more clear.

I prefer a fast expanding bullet over the slower expanding premium bullets. It seems like to me that the rapid expansion blows bigger holes and puts the deer down a lot faster. Some of the fastest kills I've ever seen were with Nosler Ballistic Tips and Sierra Gamekings. It seems like to me, the harder the bullet is, the more likely your deer is to run off after the shot, which still isn't that big of a deer since heart/lung shot deer are dead within 100 yards anyways. From what I've saw, softer bullets drop deer faster at the expense of more bloodshot meat while deer shot with harder bullets tend to run further but you have less bloodshot meat. So its basically a tradeoff. I have settled on plane jane soft point bullets for all of my deer hunting. They seem to give a good balance of expansion with not as much bloodshot meat as the Ballistic Tips.

JM, well it's settled then; Bob and I will come and shoot a hundred hogs each, stay at your place, regale you with lies and eat your food. You get one free legal consult and an anesthetic without nausea and vomiting (assuming no Big Macks before surgery) if you get up here before OBC (you figure that out).

Well you probably will think I am crazy but my favorite for deer is the 100gr Hollow Point at 3600 to 3800 fps in my 264WM drops them in there tracks. It destroys ther lungs or heart or neck and never exits. Shot placement never ruins meat.

It's a deal. Just bring plenty of mosquito dope & ammo. Go to your local John Deere dealer and practice shooting out of a corn picker, as the hogs will run from a pickup but usually aren't afraid of those. Shooting while riding on one is interesting to say the least.

You won't hear me say this much, but this is one situation where an auto is a plus. We'll let Bob dig the bullets out while we head to Natchez Under-the-Hill on the river for drinks and dinner.

JM

Gee....I'm speechless with gratitude...bring me back leftovers..LOL!Will 150 BT's kill them...?

Anything will kill them Bob, as long as you hit them in the ear.

Being that recovery is not paramount or even allowed by the game folks other than removal from the field, I would fling BT's at them all day long. I believe the recovery rule may have changed though.

The issue with hogs is that their boiler room is located more forward than say a deer's vitals. This can get you into shoulder muscle & bone.

And Bob, where is the gratitude? I was going to set you up in a roadside stand selling that hog meat while goodnews and I toured the antebellum mansions in town trying to drum up business. The stand would bring you into direct contact with some of our finest citizenry, and I dare say, would be a cultural opportunity and education that could easily spawn a couple of best sellers.

I can see the title on Oprah's book club list now: Hog Meat Horizons by Bob

Good news and I were even going to hit Fat Mama's on the bluff for margaruitas in an effort to increase sales. Our dedication to Bob's Hog Meat and Stink Bait Emporium is beyond question.

LOL. Just kidding Pard. It would be a good time though, that's for sure.


JM

sometimes you dont get the option to decide, go with the worst case scenario bullet

JM, whoa! I claim title rights to the book and will write the foreword. The title will be "What about Bob?"