Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Penetration vs. Frag

JM: LOL! It would be fun!

"Hog Meat Horizons" does have a ring to it.....

From the title, people might think it's the dating journal of a chubby chaser.

Can't say I've had any trouble dropping a mule deer with either a deep-penetrating bullet or one that expands & fragments more. Tremendous damage inside the chest cavity from the fragmenting Berger VLD. Serious penetration from the Barnes TSX. Others were somewhere in between.

LOL! True enough....great name for a new website!

Here in Oregon, some of our hunters prefer Fragmentation...

they don't want to "overpenetrate"

Bob,...we should!

Do you think we could get Ingwe to join us? You know, as sort of a Ninja grandseer?

Tennessee �

The question for me is not which is faster, as my experience with several good bullets (Grand Slams, North Fork, TTSX and MRX) have all provided kills where the animal went straight down. More often than not, in fact, at least for the last few years. Last year I had an antelope run about 20 yards (.257 Roberts/100g TTSX) but also had two deer drop straight down (.300 WM/180g MRX). My son-in-law dropped an antelope straight down with a .30-06/168g TTSX last year and I did one the year before with a .308 Win/168g TTSX. A couple years ago I dropped two cow elk straight down with a .30-06 and a 165g North Fork. Both got back up went straight down again with a follow-up shot. That same year I dropped a buck with a quartering-away shot behind the ribs that became a shot low to the right ham when the buck turned away and stepped forward as the trigger broke. The buck went straight down and the 7mm RM/140g North Fork was found up against the sternum.

The question for me is not what will work when things go right but what bullet do I want in my rifle when things go south.

The quickest I've ever seen deer die is with a 120gr NBT out of a 7-08. Even faster than a 250gr Hornady out of a .338 Lapua. :-)

That 120 gr 7mm BT is a wicked muther at 3100fps out of a 7mm-08,,, 8 deer and a couple of hogs have dropped right there or within 40 yards since I started using it

Coyote_Hunter,

The question was about deer, so your answers involving elk are are irrelevant.

The examples you give of shots on pronghorn and deer would have had basically the same result with a .30 180 Ballistic Tip from the .30-06, or a 150 Ballistic Tip from a .308. I have shot lengthwise through deer with the 180 Ballistic Tip from the .30-06 and likewise through pronghorn with the 150 Ballistic Tip from the .308. The pronghorn was shot at 250 yards as it faced me, and the bullet exited the right ham.

If you're absolutely convinced that $1 or $1.50 bullets are necessary to kill deer or pronghorn on bad angle shots, then why it's your money. But there are a bunch of other bullets that will do what you describe.

As long as their going on the ground who could care?

Irrelevant? Perhaps. Are you suggesting a bullet that can drop an elk in its tracks is inappropriate or inadequate for deer?

I generally hunt elk and deer in the same season and load for the larger of the two. While my experience is much more limited than that of some, including yourself, I have yet to find a load that works for elk but fails on deer.

Here are photos of three North Fork bullets. From left to right:

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from dirt
(500 yards, 145.0 grains retained weight)

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from second cow elk
(~25 yards, 133.2 grains retained weight)

7mm 140 grain @ 3200fps, recovered from buck mule deer
(~150 yards, 131.2 grains retained weight)







The .30-06/165g bullet in the center was recovered from one of the elk mentioned in my post. The 7mm/140g bullet on the right was the one recovered from up against the sternum of the deer (entry point was lower right ham). Both performed very well as far as I�m concerned and I will continue to use them, interchangably, for elk and deer.

Had I not provided the answer above, could you tell which was recovered from elk, which from deer and which from dirt?




There have been many times when I�ve stated my belief that the heavier the bullet and the slower the impact velocity, the less need there is for a premium bullet. That .308/150g bullet was probably doing 2400fps or less on impact. If it had been doing over 2900fps on impact, as was the 7mm/140g bullet I mentioned, I doubt it would have provided the same penetration and may have blown up shortly after impact. While the result might have been the same on a facing shot, the results on an away shot might have been much different.

Having seen some rather disappointing behavior with a variety of bullets, from cup-and-core to mono-metal, I�m aware that not all bullets perform the same. Still, some seem to perform consistently and well over a wider range of velocities and circumstances than do others. My preference is to use bullets I believe fall into this category � North Fork, Trophy Bonded, A-Frame, TTSX, and MRX.



Deer aren�t that big and antelope are even smaller � most bullets will work most of the time and the heavier and slower they are the less likely the bullet will blow up on impact and the better the penetration will generally be. But that�s the rub � heavier and/or slower means giving up trajectory and the cost delta just isn�t that great. Midway is selling 50-count .308� 165g Ballistic Tips for $16.99 and 50-count .308� 168g TTSX for $34.59. That�s difference of about $0.35 per loaded round. In a year where I fill an antelope, deer and elk tag, the difference in total cost will only be $1 or $2 � not even worth mentioning when the other hunting costs are considered.

For my 257 Roberts, handloaded 120g A-Frames run less than $23 per box of 20, while the least expensive Roberts ammo on the Midway site is Winchester 117g Power Points for $21.89. I could handload 115g Ballistic Tips for $6.50 per box of 20 but then I�d be back in the boat of worrying about bullet blow-up on close range shots. For antelope I run 100g TTSX in the Roberts and pay less than $15 per loaded box of 20. Compared to the 115g Ballistic Tips, the TTSX run about $0.42 more per loaded cartridge. The last two antelope I�ve taken were with TTSX (.257Rob/100g and .308 Win/165g) and Ballistic Tips would have saved me less than $1. Whoopee.

For the non-handloader, Midway is selling Federal�s .30-06 ammo loaded with 165g GameKing bullets for $30.39 and 165g Ballistic Tips are going for $34.99. Partitions in the same weight are only $38.40 and 165g Trophy Bonded are $42.99. The Trophy Bonded work out to $0.40 more per cartridge than the Ballistic Tips. While that might be important when target shooting, when you get one or two deer tags a year the difference in savings while hunting with the Ballistic Tips is insignificant.

You are right, it is my money. As a handloader, I shoot North Fork, TTSX, MRX, and A-Frames for about the same cost or less than factory loaded Ballistic Tips � often far less. I get to shoot the weights I want at the velocities I want and the possibility of bullet blow-up isn�t something I have to worry about when I squeeze the trigger. Call me a spendthrift if you wish.

By the way, if money is the issue, why do you shoot Ballistic Tips instead of cheaper bullets that will work just as well for deer and antelope? Midway is selling 150g Federal Soft Points for the .30-06 at $14.97 a box. Stock up now and save...

The original poster's question was strictly about bullets for whitetails, and since his user name is Tennessee, I would assume that elk are not part of the mix. (Unless, of course, he goes west to hunt elk, or draws a rare permit in Tennessee. But that was not part of the question.)

Why do I use Ballistic Tips? I don't only use Ballistic Tips, but in the instances I noted, the pronghorn was taken with a Ballistic Tip because Federal was one of the sponsors of a hunt I went on, and they provided 3 boxes of their premium ammo. In the other instance, I was deliberately field-testing Nosler's latest version of the 180 Ballistic Tip, which has a much heavier jacket in the rear of the bullet, so it acts more like a Partition. (One mistake many hunters make is assuming that every bullet of a certain make/design acts like every other bullet of the same make/design.)

I hunt with a wide variety of bullets because that's my job. In fact, I have hunted with all the bullets you have, and a large number you haven't. This includes North Forks, and I have my own collection of recovered NF's. They are very fine bullets, but are not needed to kill Tennessee whitetails, or even Alberta whitetails.

I have spent the past decade deliberately shooting lots of big game animals on cull shoots (as well as trophy and meat hunts),with a wide variety of bullets. I also observed the other hunters on such shoots, which provides the same information. One year I saw over 200 big game animals killed. Most years aren't like that, but even in an average year I probably see more animals taken, with a wider variety of cartridges and bullets, than most local hunters take in a decade.

The cartridges used have ranged from the .223 Remington to the .458 Lott, and easily totalled over 100, including both the ones I used and the ones I've observed in use.

The bullets have included Barnes X-Bullets, Triple Shock X-Bullets, and Tipped Triple Shock X-Bullets; Berger VLDs; Federal Fusions, Federal Tipped Trophy Bonded, and the (discontinued) Deep-Shok; Hornady Interlocks and Interbonds; North Fork softpoints; Nosler Partitions, Ballistic Tips, AccuBonds and E-Tips; Remington Core-Lokts and Core-Lokt Ultras; Rhinos (from South Africa); Sierra GameKings and ProHunters; Speer Hot-Cors and Grand Slams; Winchester Power-Points, Silvertips, Failsafes and whatever they call their new premium (MP3?); and Woodleigh Weldcores. There were probably some others I probably don't remember right now. Oh, and a bunch of different "solids," but those are not the subject of this thread.

There are several things I've decided after all this:

1) Shot placement is still 90% of "killing power," even with all of today's Wonder Bullets, and more important than foot-pounds or bullet diameter.

2) Fragmenting or partial-fragmenting bullets do kill deer-sized game quicker. This was determined by pacing off the distance animals traveled after being shot in the heart-lung area. The quickest killing bullet I've ever seen is the Berger VLD, but there are a bunch of other good partial-frgamenting bullets.

3) Many hunters who have a firm belief in premium bullets tend to equate price with performance, which (as with many things) isn't a valid assumption.

4) The danger of a bullet not penetrating to the vitals is highly exaggerated, especially by hunters convinced that premium bullets are The Answer. In all the hunting and observation I've done, only a handful of bullets have disintegrated to the point where they didn't penetrate the vitals of the big game animal in question. A couple of these were on deer, and maybe three were on larger game. Of course, the bullet used for most game was selected either for construction or weight or both.

5) At least 10 big game animals should be taken with any bullet before even beginning to draw any conclusions about performance. Odd things happen now and then, even to $1 bullets.

If you want to discuss this further, fine.

THX JB

Mule Deer,
I can truly say that what you posted here mirrors my experiences and the opionions I've drawn from those experiences. The most noteworthy part of this was the statement concerning worrying about standard bullets not penetrating. I've killed deer with such cup and cores as Hornady, Core Lokts, Gamekings, and Pro Hunters in places such as Montana, Missouri, and all over Texas and I've never had one fail to penetrate more than what was truly necessary to kill the animal.

I'm pretty fond of two leaking holes, and a train wreck in between......

Arns9,

Thanks for your additional info.

I'll make one more comment on my experiences. One common notion is that boattailed lead-core bullets separate core and jacket more readily than flat-based bullets. I keep fairly detailed records of each animal I see taken, and eventually decided to look at the data for boattailed and flat-base lead-core bullets.

I found exactly the same number of jacket-core separations, and since very close to the same number of animals were taken with each type of bullet, there was no evidence for "boattails separate more easily."

In fact I have seen two bullets leave theit jackets at the entrance hole. One was a boattail--but the other was a flat-base. In each instance the core continued to penetrate and killed the deer, and apparently instantly. This is because the core in a cup-and-core is most of the bullet's weight.

Mule Deer �

While I respect your experience and read your articles with more enthusiasm than most, the vastness of your experience does not negate mine, however paltry in comparison. And in my world, my experience is what counts.

While no bullet is perfect, some perform more consistently under a wider array of adverse circumstances than do others. That more consistent performance is more important to me than saving a few cents or even a dollar, just as I�m willing to pay far more for reliable transportation than a vehicle that �usually works�.




We are in complete agreement on this.




While there is no doubt that fragmenting bullets can provide dramatic kills, it is also true that such bullets may not provide the penetration needed on a bad angle. I like them for varmints but won�t use them for big game. Others can use what they want but my preference is bullets that stick together.



There is a degree of correlation between price and design, and consistency of performance is a product of the design. I agree, however, an expensive bullet does not necessarily mean the design works as desired. Barnes� XLC�s are a case in point in my personal experience, with very inconsistent performance. Couldn�t bring myself to use the all-too-similar TSX�s on game but have had very good results with TTSX and MRX.



If we are talking about broadside shots on antelope to elk, the limit of my experience, I tend to agree. If I knew every shot would be a well placed broadside I wouldn�t worry about bullet selection. Nevertheless, bad stuff happens � you�ve seen it, I�ve seen it. I prefer it happens to someone else.

If I have to put down a fleeing animal and a THS is all that is presented, a fragmenting bullet is not what I would want in the pipe. The only way to be sure that doesn�t happen is not to load such bullets in the first place. Others are welcome to choose differently.




On this I agree and disagree. Odd things do happen to good bullets but often those �odd things� would be considered rather normal for other bullet types.

If taking a THS I would much rather have a heavy BT than a light one and I don�t need to shoot 10 animals to figure that out. My first big game animal was taken with an InterLock. That was also the last animal I took using a bolt gun and standard cup-and-core bullets. Nearly 30 years later I don�t regret that decision at all.

Some people prefer bullets that are advertised to blow up after impact, like the Bergers. My preference is bullets that provide reliable but limited expansion coupled with high weight retention. Such bullets have worked well for me over the years and I�m willing to pay more for them. If there is a down side to such bullets, other than a minor difference in cost, I have yet to find it.

If there's a downside to using what might be considered super-bullets on deer-sized animals, its that the animals might go a lon ways before keeling over. I have seen this a number of times, and no, an exiting super-bullet does not always leave a blood trail.

In fact I once watched a pronghorn go 250 yards after a perfect lung shot from a super-bullet that apparently didn't expand much, if at all, and the blood trail didn't start until 6-8 feet from where the buck finally fell. If it had been a whitetail in thick cover, it might easily have been lost.

As I stated in my earlier post, in my experience is that any reasonably appropriate bullet failing to reach the vitals on a big game animal is extremely rare. In fact in my opinion it's danger is highly exaggerated. If you have seen it, I'd sure like to hear the details.

I am not talking about "odd things" when I say at least 10 animals should be taken with any bullet to start reaching a conclusion. I am talking about the same probability that you're touting as "more consistent performance." Unless a bullet is used on a number of animals then you have no idea what the range of performance can be.

I am also not talking about only broadside shots on pronghorn and deer. As I mentioned previously, many of the bullets that you dismiss as unreliable will indeed RELIABLY penetrate even on angling shots, and some of them even on rear-end shots.

Though I will also state that the most reliable going-away shot is NOT trying to drive a bullet all the wayu through the butt of an animal into its heart. Even many super-bullets will waver off-line enough to "fail" there. The most reliable rea-end stopping shot is to put a bullet right in the middle of the pelvis. This will drop any animal instantly, though a finisher will usually be needed. A super-bullet isn't required.

One of the reasons some bullets cost a lot is because the manufacturing process is much slower than with bullets that are made in larger factories with faster machinery. Just because such a bullet costs twice as much as another bullet doesn't mean it's twice as good--and sometimes it isn't even as good as some bullets costing less. If you prefer to pay for inefficient manufacturing, fine, but don't try to tell me cost is the absolute criteria of any bullet, because it isn't.

I used to believe, somewhat, in the super-bullet theory even for shooting pronghorns and doe whitetails. Then I gained more experience and decided it was BS. Contrary to what you insist, there are a lot of bullets out there that will pentrate and expand reliably, killing such game quicker than many super-bullets.

In my experience the best deer bullets are those that combine some degree of fragmentation and penetration. This list includes some bullets that would be way to cheap for you to consider, including the Hornady Interlock. I have yet to see an Interlock fail to reach the vitals on any deer, and I have seen dozens of them used in sizes from the 100-grain .25 to the 225-grain .338. And I have yet to see a deer (or pronghorn, or caribou) shot in the heart-lung cavity with an Interlock go nearly as far as they have with some super-bullets. That may not compute in your world, but it does in the real world.

Obviously, it's free country and you can use anything you want, but I am in the business of giving advice to other hunters. After a LOT more experience than yours, I almost always suggest some sort of partial-fragmenting bullet for deer, because they work better than anything else. And by "working" I mean they kill quicker, which seems to me to be the real criteria of a game bullet, not how much weight is retained, how many feet they penetrate, or how pretty they look in a photo.

Mule deer, thanks for spelling out the truth so elloquently.

"1) Shot placement is still 90% of "killing power," even with all of today's Wonder Bullets, and more important than foot-pounds or bullet diameter.

2) Fragmenting or partial-fragmenting bullets do kill deer-sized game quicker. This was determined by pacing off the distance animals traveled after being shot in the heart-lung area. The quickest killing bullet I've ever seen is the Berger VLD, but there are a bunch of other good partial-frgamenting bullets.

3) Many hunters who have a firm belief in premium bullets tend to equate price with performance, which (as with many things) isn't a valid assumption.

4) The danger of a bullet not penetrating to the vitals is highly exaggerated, especially by hunters convinced that premium bullets are The Answer. In all the hunting and observation I've done, only a handful of bullets have disintegrated to the point where they didn't penetrate the vitals of the big game animal in question. A couple of these were on deer, and maybe three were on larger game. Of course, the bullet used for most game was selected either for construction or weight or both.

5) At least 10 big game animals should be taken with any bullet before even beginning to draw any conclusions about performance. Odd things happen now and then, even to $1 bullets."




I must warn you, I am sure that you are aware of the fact that a Popular Lie, is more acceptable than a very unpopular truth. Even Jesus was crucified for attempting to dispell an unpopular truth vs a popular lie.

Current thinking today among some shooters and hunters is that some premium bullets make a bad shot good(ie. shot placement is no longer key), particular calibers also seem to have the distinction of making a bad shot good. This kind of thinking may lead to long tracking jobs through myserable terrain and lost game.

Your 5 observations are the light in the middle of a pitch dark night.