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Originally Posted by 1minute
DocRocket: If you don't mind, could you elaborate a bit on the symptoms and perhaps their general order of onset.

I've made the mistake a couple of times in the last few years of hitting the forest to cut and load firewood on about the hottest day of the year. Near the end of those sessions, I was feeling pretty well whipped and experienced cramps in my hands and forearms. They were not really severe cramps, but did persist for a couple hours even after I felt like I had sufficiently rehydrated.

Fluid intake was above normal, but I was likely doing little to replace lost sodium.


Symptoms are going to be variable, depending on the person and the circumstances.

In my experience, personal and vicarious, with most of us we don't know we've hit "the wall" until we've gone through it. In other words, we realize we're in serious trouble because something bad has happened... we've fallen down and can't get up, etc.

There are no "subtle" warning signs. The warning signs are huge, but you have to pay attention... you feel hot, you feel flustered, you feel thirsty, you feel sweaty, you haven't peed in 6 hours. Most of us have trained to ignore these symptoms. We need to retrain to NOT ignore them.

It's no more complex than that.


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One thing I noticed that has helped me a bunch with after exercise cramping is some stuff called "Sport Legs". It has calcium and magnesium salts of lactose, I think?
I did a 9 hour, 50 mile mountain bike ride last Saturday and I didn't have any cramps after the ride-normally I would be fighting cramps for a few days afterwards.


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Great and informative post.

I ignored signs and didn't prep properly 2x when I was a teen. Once hauling hay, a second time when simply dove hunting in very hot weather.

I've lived the following 30+ or so years much smarter because of it. Very scary events - imagine being 18, 10ft tall, and derned near bullet-proof and all of the sudden going temporarily blind.

That fits the definition of a true eye opener!


Have a good day man. In honor of personal freedom and the open squirrel season, I think I'll go put a hole through dinner's head.
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Originally Posted by hatari
Doc,

For edification purposes, can I get you to expound upon a few related topics:

1.) Some authorities (going back to my days at MCG) claim that plain water is better than electrolyte solutions in dehydration/heat illness because the latter are hypertonic, and thus absorbed slower than water. Is that so?


No, it isn't so. There's a huge body of sports medicine literature over the past 10 years that refutes these RIDICULOUS claims. First thing, when we're talking "tonic", we're talking in vitro vs in vivo fluids, which anything you're drinking, ain't applicable. Anyone who uses terms like that for oral fluids needs re-assignment as a trunk monkey. No offense to professional trunk monkeys.

Now, over short periods of time of exertion with minimal/moderate sweating, water is probably better than anything else. But once you're into a period of intense sweating (like inside football pads & helmet, or, as I experienced last week, several hours in the sun inside a full SWAT outfit [tactical black, of course]) you are going to need to replace electrolytes.

Originally Posted by hatari
2.) When did salt pills become taboo, and why? They worked when I played football, but then so did the Wishbone offense.


If a savvy coach re-instituted the Wishbone offense this season, he'd tear up the SEC and 95% of defensive coordinators would be pulling their hair out trying to figure out how to stop it before the championship game. Those who fail to learn from History are condemned to relive it. And to tell the truth, if you had the right personnel, I believe you could win a National Championship with a Wishbone offense this year.

But physiology has remained the same. Always has been, always will be. The biggest problem with salt tablets is that they're big monolithic blocks of salt. Drop those into an almost-empty pregame stomach, you're gonna induce vomiting at best and cause ulcers at worst. The sodium has to be in solution so it can be readily absorbed.

Originally Posted by hatari
3.) How best to combat dehydration related muscle cramps? I get them, and they are a bitch!

Thanks.


I had an interesting experience at the IALEFI - ATC in Reno a couple years ago. We were out on the range every day in that high desert wind and by the time we got back to the conference hotel each night guys were cramped up like circus monkeys. The second or third night I happened to be sitting in the hotel bar with a glass of Crown Royal on the rocks (NOT my preferred adult beverage, but bought for me by a guy whose it WAS) in front of me when one of these cramped-up guys crawled up to me and asked me what he should do to relieve his pain.

I screwed the lid off the salt-shaker on the table and poured a tablespoon of salt into the palm of his hand, told him to to wash it down with a slug of his beer and see me in 2 minutes. He did, and 2 minutes later he was grinning and proclaiming me Hippocrates Reincarnated, and he plunked down a CR on the rocks in front of me as a token of his gratitude.

Word spread like wildfire. Next thing I knew every guy who'd been at the range was happily sucking back cold beers and munching hot wings, and there were better than a dozen CR/rocks in front of me. Being the polite kind of guy I am, I did my best to honor their tokens of gratitude and respect. I wish I had a remedy for the consequences of that.

Just FYI, I no longer accept alcoholic gratuities for pro bono publico dispensed medical care. Please.


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Originally Posted by 340boy
One thing I noticed that has helped me a bunch with after exercise cramping is some stuff called "Sport Legs". It has calcium and magnesium salts of lactose, I think?
I did a 9 hour, 50 mile mountain bike ride last Saturday and I didn't have any cramps after the ride-normally I would be fighting cramps for a few days afterwards.


Calcium and magnesium exist in our bodies in ENORMOUS quantities, and their flux in and out of cells is relatively slow. Most of the "sport supplements" that tout their calcium and magnesium content are mostly bullchit.

Mostly. Because I know we are all made differently, and there are things that will work for you that truly work for you, and if that's the case, then By God stick to what you know works for you.


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Originally Posted by okie
After 30 years in a dangerous heat environment you are absolutely spot on Doc. Being prepared to go into the heat is rule #1. Knowing when to get out runs a close second... grin


Thanks, okie... you and me are muy symptatico...


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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by 340boy
One thing I noticed that has helped me a bunch with after exercise cramping is some stuff called "Sport Legs". It has calcium and magnesium salts of lactose, I think?
I did a 9 hour, 50 mile mountain bike ride last Saturday and I didn't have any cramps after the ride-normally I would be fighting cramps for a few days afterwards.


Calcium and magnesium exist in our bodies in ENORMOUS quantities, and their flux in and out of cells is relatively slow. Most of the "sport supplements" that tout their calcium and magnesium content are mostly bullchit.

Mostly. Because I know we are all made differently, and there are things that will work for you that truly work for you, and if that's the case, then By God stick to what you know works for you.


I didn't know that about the flux of Ca and Mg across the cells, Doc.

I wonder if there could be something else in that stuff that is helping me with the cramps?

??



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Originally Posted by joken2
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by Seafire
Thanks! because I am going to make sure Seafire Jr reads this..

he is a cross country runner..school practice just started again..

and yesterday the temp locally hit 113...


Good idea, Seafire. Since we instituted the before-and-after-practice weigh-ins with our student athletes and made it a rule they have to drink enough to replace half their weight loss, we've cut our heat illness incidence to dang near zero. We're 7 years into it now and have only had one case of heat illness since then. This includes football, soccer, cross-country, well over 250 athletes per year total each late summer/early fall.

We had a cross-country runner slip thru the cracks last week and she got pretty sick from it, but it was only because she "cheated" on the weigh-in sheet.


Local high school football team has started using a new product called Body Alert Temperature Patch to warn of potential heat related health risk during training work outs. http://ionxalert.com/product.php

BP bought a bunch for the oil spill cleanup crews and Special Forces soldiers have also tested them. http://blog.al.com/live/2010/08/oil_spill_cleanup_crews_used_t.html





Not a bad idea at all.

I refer to my tyrranosauric football boys as "the puppies".

And they are. They're just [bleep]' puppies. They are all play, no brain. Never mind that they could break me in half like a dry stick if they had a mind to! Fortunately, they crave battle with more worthy opponents.

My job is to keep them in stick-breakin' mode. Which means watching stuff like body temp. Here in Wisconsin, where it rarely breaks 95 on a hot day, I'm not so worried. But if we was out doin' 2-a-days in 105's with 95% humidity, I'd seriously look at heat strips.


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thanks for the informative post, doc. really. i don't mind being in the heat, but i do mind what it does to me. we've had a fairly mild summer in Tex, but have had some 100+ days when i'm expected to get out there and get the job done. i'm over 50, so it ain't like i'm a young kid.

what i've done all along, is consume salt. usually with a little fluid following it. after a big day of working my arze off outside, i'll come in, make a cocktail, sprinkle a bit of salt in my palm, and whuff it down, followed by a sip, then a bit more of salt. it's what i crave.

i've been told by a good sports-med doc that one should not ignore cravings, because it's your body telling you what you should and should not do, in real basic terms.

whaddaya think about "Powerade"??? any diff from gatorade?

-tom


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
The longest thread I've ever read on the 'Fire, good job.


Gimme a break, Slayer-of-deer-from-canoes!

Keep yourself hydrated, bro.


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Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
Thanks Doc!!!

I can testify that bouncing your head off a couple of walls when your on your way down doesn't help the situation either. whistle


Day-um!

Wish I could say I didn't have first-hand knowledge of same. Day-um.

Like Northern Dave, I know I could've been SOOOO much smarter....


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Originally Posted by ltppowell
In all seriousness, there is a time to stop, even if all the work isn't done. Just a couple more hours can mean you won't be getting anything done for a long time, if ever. Thanks again Doc.


Don't thank me, Pat. I am and will ever be in your debt for teaching me the value of taking one's shoes off.


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I have had Heat Exhaustion once, that was in the gulf, I decided that schit wasn't gonna happen again, Anytime my Bradley left the AA, I had a 5 gallon water can right behind my drivers seat with about 4 foot of AOAP hose for a straw. 140 degrees in the drivers hatch take quite a bit out of ya. Les


Back in the heartland, Thank God!



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Originally Posted by .280Rem
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Pat Powell's recent experience with heat illness, and the various well-intended but sometimes wild-azzed suggestions for treating it, have prompted me to (for once) post a serious, non-tongue-in-cheek post about the medical realities of heat illness.

FYI, those who don't know, I'm an ER doc with a large side-practice in sports medicine, a member of the Am College of Sports Medicine, and Head Team Physician for a Div. III NCAA school. Heat illness used to be one of our biggest problems. Research and practical experience by a number of NCAA colleges and sports medicine researchers has put that to an end, for the most part.

"Heat illness" encompasses a group of terms, including heatstroke and heat exhaustion, neither of which is very specific and hence mostly useless, as well as encompassing the electrolyte disorders that may accompany exertion in a hot environment. It's simplest just to lay aside these terms and concentrate on the general concept that "heat illness" means body fluid and electrolyte imbalances brought on by our bodies' response to heat, or more often, response to exertion in heated conditions.

Here's the basic physiology: all the cells in the human body are bags of water with lots of dissolved electrolytes (ions). The two most important electrolytes are sodium and potassium, which are the essential ions for all muscular and neurological cell function. Other electrolytes such as calcium, magnesium, and phosphate are also important, but they don't fluctuate much in heat illness.

When you're hot, your body tries to cool off by sweating, by radiating heat from the skin, and by blowing heat off in exhaled air (primarily... there are other means). Sweating's the main thing. Sweat is basically water and sodium, so if you're sweating, guess what you need to replace? That's right, water and sodium. When you're exerting yourself in heat and sweating, you're also depleting glucose and glycogen stores as your metabolic rate rises to meet the demands. So you need to replace glucose, as well.

As long as you keep your water, sodium, and glucose reserves adequately replaced, you're very unlikely to experience heat illness. This is the most important single concept to hang on to.

However, if your water and sodium levels (and in endurance events, glucose) become depleted, your ability to cool yourself becomes exhausted very quickly, and your core body temperature will start to rise rapidly (especially with exertion). It's not uncommon for endurance athletes with heat illness to have core temperatures in excess of 108 degrees, and some athletes have survived core temperatures of over 110 degrees. When your body temp rises above 104 or so, you will experience symptoms that progress from flu-like inconvenience to truly life-threatening: weakness, lethargy, dizziness, feeling like you might pass out, confusion, loss of bowel/bladder control, ataxia (loss of coordination), coma, and, eventually, death. If you want to see video of what it's like, go to YouTube and do a search of marathon runners. This clips shows a fairly typical case of severe heat illness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ceoSotrLpc&feature=related
Anyone remember that horrifying scene at the 1984 LA Olympics, with that female marathon runner staggering around the Coliseum while the whole world watched her dying, the commentators talking about her bravery and resolution, and no one making an effort to get her to treatment to save her brain and/or life? I can't find the clip, but if someone can, please post the link. It's truly horrifying, but truly educational as well.

Treatment of heat illness of any degree involves two things: first, restoring depleted water and electrolytes, and second, bringing the core body temperature down. For most Campfire members, the latter will likely never be necessary, but if you need to cool off, get into some cool water a.s.a.p. Get a rectal temp and if over 106 degrees get thee to a hospital.

Which brings us to the problem of fluid/electrolyte depletion and replacement. First, in the majority of fluid/electrolyte depletion cases, the problem started BEFORE the heat stress. Most people with heat illness are inadequately hydrated BEFORE they go out into the heat. So the best thing you can do for yourself prior to going out in the heat is make sure you're not dehydrated from drinking beer the night before, or from going out day after day in the heat and failing to replace your fluids and electrolytes before going back out into the heat. How do you do this? Easy. 1) Weigh yourself before you go out to work/play in the heat. 2) Weigh yourself when you come back in from working/playing in the heat. 3)Drink one Imperial pint (20 oz) of water or sports drink for every pound you lost in the heat, and don't go back out into the heat until you've replaced AT LEAST HALF of your weight loss.

But what if, like Pat, you're already hooped, loopy, and feeling like you've got a concussion from the heat? Well, you've now got fluid/electrolyte imbalances in the brain, and you aren't going to be able to correct that in a few hours. Most people with neurological symptoms due to heat illness can expect to have a recovery period much like a person who has sustained a concussion (2 to 7 days) because the biochemical changes in the brain due to heat illness are similar to those of concussion.

Treatment in this case involves lots and lots of balanced electrolyte solutions (Pedialyte, dilute Gatorade, Gookinade, etc) and REST in a cool A/C environment. Gatorade has more sugar than you need and Gookinade has slightly more potassium, but other than that there's not much to choose between them. (I'm not sure why Miss Lynn's doc got all pizzy about her drinking Gatorade, as it's a well-accepted sports drink in the sports med field and there's lots of research to show it's better than plain water.) In most cases IV fluids aren't needed, oral rehydration/replacement works just fine. But just because you've corrected your water/electrolyte problem in your bloodstream doesn't mean you've corrected it in your brain and muscles... that can take days, as I've noted above.

Better yet, try to avoid having to treat heat illness altogether: make sure you're staying hydrated/electrolyte-replaced while you're out in the heat. The simplest guideline is that if you're not peeing, you're not drinking enough. And if you're drinking straight water, make sure you're getting electrolytes from other sources (food, V8 juice, etc). Too much sweat without sodium replacement can lead to "water intoxication". Don't sweat the science, you really just have to drink electrolyte-replacing fluids.

Research shows people drink more fluids if the fluids are 1)cold, and 2)sweet. Hence the sugar in sports drinks... it encourages drinking, and provided you're not diabetic, you're not going to injure yourself by drinking a few grams more glucose than you normally would. My recommendations are, in order, Gookinaid, dilute Gatorade, and chuck the rest. Pedialyte is too expensive to use routinely, IMHO.

Personally, I use Gookinaid crystals mixed slightly dilute with ice in my Camelbak, or I mix up Gatorade half-strength the same way. One of my buddies freezes two quarts of Gatorade in his Camelbak the night before, then adds 2 quarts of full-strength Gatorade in the morning. Keeps it cool all day long. And BTW, a Camelbak or similar hydration pack is worth its weight in gold IMHO. I use mine every time I go to the range, at every class, and it's usually on my back at every sporting event I attend as a physician.

Hope that takes some of the mystery out of the heat illness deal.

Oh, and BTW, now that I've passed 3000 posts, my word has even MORE weight to it, doncha know? Just ask Isaac. He'll tell ya.


Well, I noticed you seemed smarter. I didn't read it all word for word...skimmed. Basically, from what I read, it's easier to prevent heat "illness" than to "cure" it. That's been my experience in sports and military. Also, once you've had a severe heat related incident, you're more succeptable to them in the future. Did I miss the basics?


Seems to me "seems smarter" doesn't mean "is smarter." WTF frame of reference are we using? I know fer dangsure I ain't smarter this year than I was... well, that's enough of that...

Yes, in my humble personal and professional experience, if you've had it once, you are more susceptible to it in the future. Again, it's very much like cerebral concussion, and underscores Troy Aikman's decision to retire from pro football. He didn't want to become another Muhammed Ali, nor do you or I.

And no, you didn't miss the basics. It ain't rocket science, and you've got more than enough brain to grasp the fine points, counselor!


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Just to let you know, your write-up couldn't have had better timing. Shot a midrange match yesterday in 93+ degree heat. There was little to no wind at the firing line or in the pits. The information you've posted came in handy, I survived the day fairly well, better than some.

Again, THANK YOU!!!!!

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You just want more crabs, don't ya? laugh

Other than a little nausea, I think I've beat it. Good thing too, I've got a tuna trip planned this weekend.


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Originally Posted by ltppowell
You just want more crabs, don't ya? laugh

Other than a little nausea, I think I've beat it. Good thing too, I've got a tuna trip planned this weekend.


Dang, man, you plannin to infect me with crabs again?
grin

Good, bro, I'm glad ya beat it. Slay some fish this w/e. And stay outta black SWAT gear this week if you can help it.


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Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
Just to let you know, your write-up couldn't have had better timing. Shot a midrange match yesterday in 93+ degree heat. There was little to no wind at the firing line or in the pits. The information you've posted came in handy, I survived the day fairly well, better than some.

Again, THANK YOU!!!!!


You're welcome.

Camelbak?


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Originally Posted by Kamerad_Les
I have had Heat Exhaustion once, that was in the gulf, I decided that schit wasn't gonna happen again, Anytime my Bradley left the AA, I had a 5 gallon water can right behind my drivers seat with about 4 foot of AOAP hose for a straw. 140 degrees in the drivers hatch take quite a bit out of ya. Les


I can't even freakin' imagine, Les!


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SWAT gear...Pat? Bwahahahaa...


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