Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles IMR & hodgdon powders of like designation...

when different powder companies offer, say, a 4895, or a 4350 powder, is loading info for one usable for the other???

i see articles from time to time which list one brand/type but also claim that the other brand of same type can be substituted...

is there a hard and fast rule???

It would appear that like numbers may fall into the same category on occasion such as the 4831's and 4350's etc, but because even the same powder from the same manufacturer can vary in burning rate a couple, to a few percent, it would be wise to trust nothing and check everything.

After you try a powder, if it pleases you and meets your requirements, I would advise you go back and buy a larger quantity whether the 8 pound keg or a basket full of 1 pound tins as long as you check the batch numbers on each container.

I recommend you do not mix batch numbers and only buy what the store has with the same number you tested.

With a new lot, you need to back off a couple of grain and reestablish the load. Again, trust nothing and check everything, as even the bullets will change from time to time in ogice shape, canelure positions, lead exposed, bullet heal, bearing surface, it happens without notification.

To quote Sir Winston, "It is something uo with which we have to put".

JW

No. Some are very close, like the 4895s I think. Others, like the 4198, while similar in application, seem to burn at significantly different rates and could easily get one in trouble through substitution either direction. Generally, if you know which one is faster, you can substitute its data with the slower one. However, even that may not be a great idea. I treat them all as the different powders they are if I'm not wildcatting.

And this brings up another point. The case shape can change the burning rate of the powder. When talking about 4198's for example, it is a fast powder if loaded into a .45 caliber case but when loaded into a .222 Remington or .223, it becomes a slower powder.

JW

It is a strange situation. Hodgdon is a US company, but makes very little of their own powder. Most, if not all extruded powder sold under the Hodgdon name comes from Australia and is only packaged in the US. It is made by ADI.

To complicate things more, a few years ago Hodgdon bought IMR (previously Dupont), who are located in Canada. Now they sell Hodgdon powder really made in Australia, under their own name, and using the same number and generally the same burn rate, as well as IMR powder under the IMR name, but made in Canada.

The last straw in the mess is that Hodgdon proclaims their Hodgson (ADI) powder to be " Extreme " -- not sensitive to temperature. And in the advertizing hype they actually dis the IMR powder (and they own them)!!!

I guess it works on me. I'm Canadian but generally avoid the Canadian IMR and buy the Aussie ADI, which is harder to get.

They are similar but not the same. Use load data for the powder you have.

I emailed Hodgodns and asked them that very question with a couple more thrown in....Here's a copy and paste of that email.....

Our muzzleloading propellants are made in Central Kansas with the exception of GOEX black powder which is made in Doyline Louisiana .



IMR extruded powders are made in Canada (As they always have been) with the exception of IMR8208 which is made by Thales in Australia (used to be ADI)



Hodgdon brand Spherical powders and Winchester powders are all made in St. Marks Florida. As they always have been. BUT, not all Hodgdon Spherical Powders have a Winchester counterpart. Some do � and they have been that way from the beginning.



Hodgdon Extruded powders are made by Thales in Australia.



IMR extruded powders and Hodgdon extruded powders are not the same. They are made on different continents, with different chemicals, with different granule size, have different burn speeds and require different data � as they always have been.







Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants

Hodgdon Smokeless Powders

Winchester Legendary Propellants

IMR Propellants

Pyrodex

Triple Seven

Goex Black Powder

I have always found a big difference in ADI's 4895 and then IMRs...

I tend to use the IMR/Canuck (eh?) made powders first..

IMR's 4895 is very accurate and predictable..

the Hodgdon H 4895, I find the exact opposite..one load will be very accurate and then change something and it will be all over the place...

while I like IMR 4350, I find Hodgdon's to be a slower burn rate... and the same with IMR 4831 vs Hodgdon 4831 which is slower in burn rate...

so I don't look at them interchangable across the board whatsoever.. I treat them as different powder characteristics..

I find IMR's 4198 more accurate than the Hodgdon version..

same with 4227.. but evidently they quit marketing H 4227, moved the manufacture tho of IMR 4227 to Australia and sell it marked IMR 4227 as IMRs version evidently sold better..

while I don't like all of ADI's powders... where I have good luck with ALL of IMRs...ADI does do a good job for an accurate powder with H 322, Varget, Benchmark, H 4350, H 4831 SC

That's an interesting quote from the Hodgy CS department. They say that all IMR powders, other than 8208, are Canadian. However, the last several hundred (literally) pounds of IMR4198 that have come through my town say "Made in Australia" on every single container. The imrpowder website also talks about the ingredients change to make IMR4198 less temp sensitive, and the shape change to make it meter better. IOW, the 4198s are both made by Thales now. I wonder whether they're identical twins now?

My jug of IMR 4198 says "made in Australia" but it does not load or look the same as my jug of H 4198. Here is a P-Poor cell phone picture of both. The one on the right is IMR the left is H. The picture doesn't show it very clearly but the H is green and the IMR is jet black.

Since reading several post where they are finding IMR powder with made in Australia I wrote them again and got this reply......

Some of the IMR4198 is made in Australia. Not all



The IMR8208XBR is also made in Australia



Some IMR4227 is made in Australia



That should be all of the exceptions



Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

Glad that is cleared up? Sounds like Mike needs to brush up on what is made where before he sends his emails out?

H110=W296
BLC(2)=W748
H414=W760

I often hear "they are close but not the same". Sounds like they are very close.

I know that with the H110/296, the only difference I have been able to detect has been typical lot-to-lot variation.

I have used BLC(2), 748, and H414, but not in a manner that would allow you to compare them to each other, in regard to the 748 and BLC(2). I've used all at different times in different calibers, but have all three on hand. I use a bunch of 748 shooting my .30-30, so I may give the BLC(2) a try at some time or another in that round, but the 748 load I use would be hard to beat.

You also need to remember that Accurate also has some powders with the same numbers as IMR and Hodgdon.

joh..,

GENERALLY IMR powders have a faster burning rate than Hogden powders with the same number designation. Which means, AS A RULE you must use less IMR powder than Hogden in a given case. Those powders are NOT INTER-CHANGEABLE

This thread seems to have gone far afield with no one answering your original question. Get a load manual for the specfic powder you intend to load. DO NOT SCREW AROUND TRYING TO DOWNLOAD OR INTERPRET ONE MAKER'S LOAD FOR ANOTHER'S That's just a great way to wreck a gun or mislay body parts.

O

i found the chart, on the page you linked to, interesting...

guidance. but no definitive answers....

i wonder if this is why some manuals list only a sampling of pwders, leaving out a good many that might be suitable???

You cannot go wrong if you treat them all as different powders. You MIGHT get in trouble if you treat them as the same. It's that simple, folks.

I don't think that BLC(2)=W748, by the way; nor is H335 as is also sometimes claimed. Three different powders.

Burn-rate charts are almost worthless for the purpose of picking suitable powders. Their rankings depend on test method and the interpretations thereof, and all of them can and do change when burned in cartridges.

And there is a fellow that would know.

Thanks.