Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Level of precision needed

Joisey ain't got no aurora!

His stocks, most definitely. I own an H&S but won't buy another 'cause they support cold-blooded murderers of women holding babies (Ruby Ridge). I never cared for B&C designs but that appears to have been remedied.

I"m wondering... aloud of course... I have always thought of a colliminator as a cheaper gadget.

Could it well be that whats moving is the colliminator and not the scope at all?

There are some ways to prove this of course but it would entail lots of testing.

My fault is all the competition I've shot has been irons... and not scopes so I don't have 100K plus rounds of scope shooting under my belt. If that was the case I'd be able to comment a bit more.

I'd be thinking the place to look to answer the question about AL bedding blocks solving an assumed problem with optics would be F class open. Fairly small target at 1000 yards... if they are dealing with this issue then yes.. Of course I don't know many of them at this point, and I"ve only run the ranges on a couple of F class matches as line officer... and as such am able to ask a bit around.. I've yet to find one using a bedding block, well at least none that were actually competitive..

I've never seen a bedding block that didn't need to be skim bedded either.

Then we have all these issues.... AL bedding block or not.... but what about AL bases or not. AL rings or not. AL scope or not(steel). Wouldn't all of that be of a big concern...

I'd lean to the cheapest link first... the 75 buck colliminator... the thing that might or might not be good enough to get you on paper at 100... and then whats the spud made of if using a spud or the thing itself if magnetized.....AL colliminator might be moving a lot too. In fact if made of the same material that allegedly moves, it would have to be doing the same thing?

Paragraph one proves you completely misunderstand the concept in question. And the fact that you are an architect and can't understand a fairly simple concept, IE differential expansion and contraction rates of different metals, pretty much explains why stock makers don't tout this phenomenon, which, unless you are shooting past 600yd, isn't much of a factor anyway.

Personally I'd think the solution would be all the same metal, hence the same expansion/contraction.. the idea of using AL vs Steel just doesn't jive with me. A steel bedding block or steel bed epoxy I could handle. Assuming the block is bedded as most blocks are a joke really.

Trust me ... I completely understand, and know that all this bedding block crap is a bunch of snake oil ... That's all there is to it.

Trey----
Somebody has obviously been staying at the Holiday Inn Express and/ or reading alotta F+S.....


George

Triggergaurd1

Actually a sine bar can be moved at either end.

Move one end up 0.0014 you have a 1 MOA angle change.

Move one end down and you have the same 1 MOA change

Move one end up 0.0007 and the other end down 0.0007 and the same 1 MOA change.

Typically one end of the bar is left in contact with the surface plate or machine table but not always.

Not sure how I got conned into explaining a relatively simple machinist technique but feel free to use it at no charge. In other words not what I consider proprietary info but general knowledge.

Seems strange you would discourage anyone from purchasing a $75 Leupold bore sighter. It is a very useful tool for many things including this experiment.

You seem to keep taking the position that I make things more complicated than necessary, but unless you have more experience in long range hunting than it seems, do you really think you have enough understanding of the subject matter to offer a valid opinion??

Dave7mm,

Good examples on both the steel scope tube and Aluminum Panda

We bed over the block in all our rifles. I was very skeptical of using just the block but I have tested several rifles and not seen a difference in the level of accuracy before bedding and after bedding. That being said all of my personal rifles are bedded in Marine Tex.

As you are well aware benchrest action are single shots and have relatively small ejection ports. Competition has proven that the area between the rings flexes, from many sources, and reducing that flex is a good thing.

Rost495,

The best answer would be using the same material in the action as in the optic but right now those options are limited and bring to many other bigger issues.

WGM,

You have it all under control. You ability to think outside the box is commendable.

RDFinn,

Has the group given you your opinion yet???

I know ... Amazing, isn't it?! ... LOL

I'm sticking with an XS aperture.

I want to see a long range shoot off between JBurns and all the doubters.....

Who brings the butane?

JBurns ...

While I've been gingerly poking at you with some of my questions sent your way, the basis of my questions have not been without merit, yet you choose to avoid answering them - specifically the one about why the stock makers using aluminum bedding blocks are not touting this "feature" you seem so proud of with regards to aiding in the ability to maintain zero during large temperature swings. Why is that? Are they in disagreement with you, or is there another reason? You say this "experiment" and/or research you have done is so simple and inexpensive - so it's not like they couldn't verify it for themselves.

I realize you are not these companies and cannot speak for them... But considering that you have worked with at least one of them to the effect of having a proprietary stock made for your package, it would only stand to reason that they (B&C) would be aware of your findings, and thus should be proud of this aspect of their products.

I just thought you would have enjoyed stepping through the door I opened for you, yet you appear unwilling (or possibly unable) to do so...

WGM, do you get a period every 28 days or so? Only a nag ass [bleep] would ask a man why some other man doesn't do something, and actually expect an answer. Must be an architect thing? In touch with your kinder/gentler side? WTF?

WGM,

As you stated I am not privy to any of their marketing meetings. I do know the subject has never been brought up to me by any stock maker.

I discovered the phenomena on my own. It is very possible they don�t know anything about it, either because it is a figment of my over active imagination or there are very few real shooters in most firearm companies.

I do know Wayne vanZwoll stopped at HS before he stayed with me this June. He related to me that the 1000yd steel target at HS was safe from the 338 Lapua they were shooting.

He shot and hit at 1 mile using our one of my .264s.

Relax John. All I'm saying is that I don't understand the connection between the bedding block and scope flexing/stretching from a temp change as if the action had little bearing on what you are describing. Maybe I'm not understanding it and that's entirely possible. A scope changing POI when you perform the test you described? Yes, I buy that completely or as one astute member so eloquently put it...."intuitively" (must have gotten his new copy of Readers Digest....lol Guess I'll have to spring for the 75 bucks but.....can you lend me a scope to cook..? ? ?

So I guess what you are trying to say is that when you perform this heat test on a rifle with conventional bedding there is more shift from zero than with the aluminum bedding system you are now using ? Is that correct ? If yes, you are measuring this through the Leupold collimator or something alittle more sophisticated ?

/s/ Sheepish

RDFinn,

You can�t give me an opening like that and expect me to behave.



Kinda like giving a 3 year old a lighter and wondering why the house burned down.

No kidding? What a revelation.



Really?? In what instance would a sine bar be left floating in the air, with no contact being made on the surface plate or machine table?



Whatever you thought you were explaining, has already been done by a machinist, rather than a salesman. Scroll up for the answer.



The discouragement was associated with the expenditure for reasons solely based on your hypothesis. On a good day, it'll get you on paper. Anything past that is probably akin to expensive load development, but I've only been machining, shooting and gunsmithing for nearly 30 years, so my opinion doesn't count for much.

Besides, around here, despite living in the high desert, deer and elk never get shot past 50 yards. We use Remington Corelocks, unless we've got some high BC casted wheel weight specials handy. I normally like to work my loads up one scoop at a time, till it fills the case, hammering the bullet in for a snug fit. I stopped wasting my money on all these fancy calibers of one size or another. Just decided to go with the 300 Weatherby. That way if my buddy who's got a 06 has got some spare ammo, I got it covered. Works good with the 300 Winchester too. Sure saved on load development.

I'd tell ya some more secrets, but its proprietary.......

Never did understand that western slang......................lol



Sorry, counldn't resist.

Ha but you misspelled couldn�t.